Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[OpenMind4U]

They are two different incidents. One is the head bash unplanned and then a period of time for someone to think about and then end her suffering by killing her and that was premeditated.[/QUOTE

or " ..time for someone to think about and then finish her sufferering by killing her...." :hypno:

I'm sure every one of us, at some point in time, plays with Kaleidoscope, right? As it turns, the same bits of colored glass creates different picture with the help from the mirrors...the same happens in this case: our mind (as the mirror) reflects the same evidences/facts into so many different scenarios. Here is mine 'kaleidoscope':

First turn.....

IF SEX is the foundation THEN
acute injury was done first;
head injury was done second;
person who's capable to do the first and second is capable to do
the STRANGULATION!;
everything else is 'staging'
ENDIF

Second turn.....

IF ACCIDENT is the foundation THEN
head injury was done first;
acute injury is 'staging' to cover the prior chronic abuse;
strangulation is 'staging'
ENDIF

...my 'kaleidoscope' is still turning....

 

[midwest mama]

I'm sure every one of us, at some point in time, plays with Kaleidoscope, right? As it turns, the same bits of colored glass creates different picture with the help from the mirrors...the same happens in this case: our mind (as the mirror) reflects the same evidences/facts into so many different scenarios. Here is mine 'kaleidoscope':

First turn.....

IF SEX is the foundation THEN
acute injury was done first;
head injury was done second;
person who's capable to do the first and second is capable to do
the STRANGULATION!;
everything else is 'staging'
ENDIF

Second turn.....

IF ACCIDENT is the foundation THEN
head injury was done first;
acute injury is 'staging' to cover the prior chronic abuse;
strangulation is 'staging'
ENDIF

...my 'kaleidoscope' is still turning....

You are so right, OM4U, this case is very much a kaleidoscope. (BTW, I loved the ones I had as a kid!) But here's what I've read in the forum posts the last couple of days, that the coroner and Kolar both lay out the timing as Head Bash, with 'acute' vaginal injury happening very near or right at time of final strangulation. So, can we at least say the head bash came first, with the experts determining there was a good time delay of approx. 90 minutes, followed by the 'jab' and the strangulation? If the jab came right near the same time as strangulation, I think the jab must have been done in an attempt to cover up prior molestation that the perpetrator knew about.

Or, remember the comments, iirc, that the FBI said there were "two hands" involved in the crime? Could they have seen evidence that led them to think someone could have done the jabbing and someone else was pulling the cord?? EEWWW, sick thought!!! Maybe because the two stagers thought she was already dead from what the head bash caused???

So, Head Bash = accident, maybe? Staging, jabbing and strangulation = cover up of sex crime knowledge??

I think I'm just too darn tired to think straight.....fftobed:

 

[Chrishope]

I'm sure every one of us, at some point in time, plays with Kaleidoscope, right? As it turns, the same bits of colored glass creates different picture with the help from the mirrors...the same happens in this case: our mind (as the mirror) reflects the same evidences/facts into so many different scenarios. Here is mine 'kaleidoscope':

First turn.....

IF SEX is the foundation THEN
acute injury was done first;
head injury was done second;
person who's capable to do the first and second is capable to do
the STRANGULATION!;
everything else is 'staging'
ENDIF

Second turn.....

IF ACCIDENT is the foundation THEN
head injury was done first;
acute injury is 'staging' to cover the prior chronic abuse;
strangulation is 'staging'
ENDIF

...my 'kaleidoscope' is still turning....

I like the kaleidoscope analogy, but as I turn it, it shows this -

First turn -
If sex is the foundation, the head injury is an accident giving rise to the need for killing/staging. The acute abuse is staging. (There could have been two episodes of acute abuse, one "real" and one staged, after the accident, to obscure long term abuse) Otherwise, go on abusing as before w/o consequence. I think it's pretty unlikely a 6 year old stood up to an adult abuser and threatened to tell. And even if that happened the adult abuser has less drastic ways to deal with the situation.

IOWs if she was killed to cover chronic abuse, an adult was the abuser and killer, and he did it after an accident happened. Most abusers don't kill their victim, they just go on abusing. An accident is the only reason this night turns out differently than many previous nights.

Second turn-
If the head injury was an accident, and BR is the long term digital abuser, then an ambulance is called. They try to explain the head injury as an accident-kids horsing around. They explain the abuse as "playing doctor". They do not risk loosing everything to save BR from - no legal consequences at all.

Third turn-
The head injury wasn't an accident. Some one wanted her dead and ruthlessly bashed her skull with a golf club as the preferred method of killing. Ligature is staging and unintended actual cause of death. Acute abuse is staging.

 

[UKGuy]

I like the kaleidoscope analogy, but as I turn it, it shows this -

First turn -
If sex is the foundation, the head injury is an accident giving rise to the need for killing/staging. The acute abuse is staging. (There could have been two episodes of acute abuse, one "real" and one staged, after the accident, to obscure long term abuse) Otherwise, go on abusing as before w/o consequence. I think it's pretty unlikely a 6 year old stood up to an adult abuser and threatened to tell. And even if that happened the adult abuser has less drastic ways to deal with the situation.

IOWs if she was killed to cover chronic abuse, an adult was the abuser and killer, and he did it after an accident happened. Most abusers don't kill their victim, they just go on abusing. An accident is the only reason this night turns out differently than many previous nights.

Second turn-
If the head injury was an accident, and BR is the long term digital abuser, then an ambulance is called. They try to explain the head injury as an accident-kids horsing around. They explain the abuse as "playing doctor". They do not risk loosing everything to save BR from - no legal consequences at all.

Third turn-
The head injury wasn't an accident. Some one wanted her dead and ruthlessly bashed her skull with a golf club as the preferred method of killing. Ligature is staging and unintended actual cause of death. Acute abuse is staging.

Chrishope,

Second turn-
If the head injury was an accident, and BR is the long term digital abuser, then an ambulance is called. They try to explain the head injury as an accident-kids horsing around. They explain the abuse as "playing doctor". They do not risk loosing everything to save BR from - no legal consequences at all.

They had to know there would be no legal prosecution of BR, before the above scenario could be enacted.

No medical assistance was called for JonBenet, then she was asphyxiated. So someone deliberately killed her, precisely because they knew once awake she would talk.

If the chronic abuse is confirmed then this offers a motive for the above, and you have one, two or three potential suspects.

Columbo might ask himself: Who stands to gain from the death of JonBenet?



.

 

[txsvicki]

I'm beginning to wonder if jonbenet's death could have resulted from fear that john would find out about the previous assault and maybe other things he hadn't been told. Burke could have hit her because she ate from his bowl and then patsy tried to hide everything out of fear of divorce. Or, Patsy could have went berserk and done it all with burke seeing and hearing things. She could have set it up to make john think Burke did it. The woman seemed to be nuts and manipulative.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I'm beginning to wonder if jonbenet's death could have resulted from fear that john would find out about the previous assault and maybe other things he hadn't been told. Burke could have hit her because she ate from his bowl and then patsy tried to hide everything out of fear of divorce. Or, Patsy could have went berserk and done it all with burke seeing and hearing things. She could have set it up to make john think Burke did it. The woman seemed to be nuts and manipulative.

Couldn't agree more!!!...interesting you've mention 'fear of divorce'. I think this case doesn't have the solid foundation/motive. Some think it's 'sex', some think it's 'accident', some think it's 'premeditated' to keep JBR silent and not to tell....but what if it's much simplier? Like you said: 'fear of divorce' or 'way to keep husband closer'?....I mean, from those 2 adults - Patsy is the most scary person to me than John. And you're absolutely, 100% right: she's nuts and manipulative!

 

[dodie20]

I like the kaleidoscope analogy, but as I turn it, it shows this -

First turn -
If sex is the foundation, the head injury is an accident giving rise to the need for killing/staging. The acute abuse is staging. (There could have been two episodes of acute abuse, one "real" and one staged, after the accident, to obscure long term abuse) Otherwise, go on abusing as before w/o consequence. I think it's pretty unlikely a 6 year old stood up to an adult abuser and threatened to tell. And even if that happened the adult abuser has less drastic ways to deal with the situation.

IOWs if she was killed to cover chronic abuse, an adult was the abuser and killer, and he did it after an accident happened. Most abusers don't kill their victim, they just go on abusing. An accident is the only reason this night turns out differently than many previous nights.

Second turn-
If the head injury was an accident, and BR is the long term digital abuser, then an ambulance is called. They try to explain the head injury as an accident-kids horsing around. They explain the abuse as "playing doctor". They do not risk loosing everything to save BR from - no legal consequences at all.

Third turn-
The head injury wasn't an accident. Some one wanted her dead and ruthlessly bashed her skull with a golf club as the preferred method of killing. Ligature is staging and unintended actual cause of death. Acute abuse is staging.

I tend to agree with most of your last scenario. After looking at that hole and crack in JB's skull, I can't say accident. Somebody bashed her hard enough to kill her, and IMO, it was on purpose, even if it happened during a rage. Maybe the perp thought she was dead, and went on about other business, (there was a novel to write, afterall). Or maybe the perp waited for JB to die of the bash, but when he/she realized JB wasn't dead, he/she finished the job...because it was late and time to 'wake up' and call 911. Or, (and I may be giving too much credit here), maybe the perp thought the bash did kill JB, so he/she staged the strangulation as part of a sexual assault, and some of the other staging, (paintbrush jab), was done to cover prior vaginal injuries. But, IMO, the 'garotte', points to knowing JB was still alive, because it might have been used, so the perp didn't have to use his/her actual hands, to strangle JB. This is psychological, but if the perp was someone close to JB, I can understand the need to distance and 'remove' one's self, from the actual deed. MOO

 

[UKGuy]

I'm beginning to wonder if jonbenet's death could have resulted from fear that john would find out about the previous assault and maybe other things he hadn't been told. Burke could have hit her because she ate from his bowl and then patsy tried to hide everything out of fear of divorce. Or, Patsy could have went berserk and done it all with burke seeing and hearing things. She could have set it up to make john think Burke did it. The woman seemed to be nuts and manipulative.

txsvicki,
Could be. The forensic evidence suggests it was Patsy who asphyxiated JonBenet.

JonBenet was killed to prevent her from talking. Her abuser was the person who stood to gain from this, this person is still anonymous.

It looks to me as if one of the males, molested JonBenet and either whacked her on the head or she accidentally fell?

The parents became involved, this is why Johns fibers are on her crotch, and Patsy's are all over the place.

If it was JR, Patsy really looked after her man, killing her own daughter! Why?

Why are Burkes fibers nowhere to be found? Has information regarding this been redacted?

BDI seems the best solution, although you can never rule JDI out.



.

 

[UKGuy]

I tend to agree with most of your last scenario. After looking at that hole and crack in JB's skull, I can't say accident. Somebody bashed her hard enough to kill her, and IMO, it was on purpose, even if it happened during a rage. Maybe the perp thought she was dead, and went on about other business, (there was a novel to write, afterall). Or maybe the perp waited for JB to die of the bash, but when he/she realized JB wasn't dead, he/she finished the job...because it was late and time to 'wake up' and call 911. Or, (and I may be giving too much credit here), maybe the perp thought the bash did kill JB, so he/she staged the strangulation as part of a sexual assault, and some of the other staging, (paintbrush jab), was done to cover prior vaginal injuries. But, IMO, the 'garotte', points to knowing JB was still alive, because it might have been used, so the perp didn't have to use his/her actual hands, to strangle JB. This is psychological, but if the perp was someone close to JB, I can understand the need to distance and 'remove' one's self, from the actual deed. MOO

dodie20,
The time period between her head injury and asphyxiation is when JonBenet could have been saved. She was deliberately denied medical assistance, then asphyxiated. So she was not killed in error, someone did not want her to live.

The R's invented an intruder to explain away JonBenet's injuries, thats why she was staged in the wine-cellar. If you think about it, it must have been premeditated, thats what must have transpired during the time gap. The R's must have discussed what to do, and decided to kill JonBenet but stage it?


.

 

[Chrishope]

I tend to agree with most of your last scenario. After looking at that hole and crack in JB's skull, I can't say accident. Somebody bashed her hard enough to kill her, and IMO, it was on purpose, even if it happened during a rage. Maybe the perp thought she was dead, and went on about other business, (there was a novel to write, afterall). Or maybe the perp waited for JB to die of the bash, but when he/she realized JB wasn't dead, he/she finished the job...because it was late and time to 'wake up' and call 911. Or, (and I may be giving too much credit here), maybe the perp thought the bash did kill JB, so he/she staged the strangulation as part of a sexual assault, and some of the other staging, (paintbrush jab), was done to cover prior vaginal injuries. But, IMO, the 'garotte', points to knowing JB was still alive, because it might have been used, so the perp didn't have to use his/her actual hands, to strangle JB. This is psychological, but if the perp was someone close to JB, I can understand the need to distance and 'remove' one's self, from the actual deed. MOO

That's interesting because I tend to think it was an accident. I have no proof, just conjecture.

If JB were going to talk, I think JR would try to persuade her not to do so. Killing is pretty drastic.

It could be an accident, followed by a clubbing to hide the evidence of how the accident happened. In other words we may be looking at two head injuries. One serious enough for the hospital, the second because the hospital wasn't an option.

Very hard to say whether the ligature is pure staging or the way to finish her off for good. It all depends on what signs of life there were, if any. We know it was asphyxiation that did her in, but did the killer know?

 

[midwest mama]

That's interesting because I tend to think it was an accident. I have no proof, just conjecture.

If JB were going to talk, I think JR would try to persuade her not to do so. Killing is pretty drastic.

It could be an accident, followed by a clubbing to hide the evidence of how the accident happened. In other words we may be looking at two head injuries. One serious enough for the hospital, the second because the hospital wasn't an option.

Very hard to say whether the ligature is pure staging or the way to finish her off for good. It all depends on what signs of life there were, if any. We know it was asphyxiation that did her in, but did the killer know?

This idea of two separate head injuries is very interesting. I was reading thru PMPT today, and the description of the head injury from the autopsy report struck me. Most of the posted thoughts have been about the skull dent and fracture being from one blow. From pg 156: "In the report, he (Meyer) wrote about an extensive purple bruise, about 8" by 1-3/4" in area, underlying the skull fracture..." (more info followed about the temporal lobe bruises).

There has been a good deal of speculation about the blow that caused the dent and fracture coming from behind. But I wonder, if the fracture had a long bruise under it, wouldn't that almost require a blow from a long object right down from the top making full contact all along that bruise line? For instance, if it had been a golf club, the club would have had to be swung by someone standing in front of JB, with the shank of the club cracking down fully along the skull, pressuring down along the fracture line as the heel of the club was striking the dent area at the same time. And I would see the angle of the golf club as having to be almost level or only slightly elevated above JB's head, which to me signals not very tall person striking with the club.

Or, what if there was a fall of some sort that caused her to land "on" something that caused the dent, along with the fracture. Or, as you allude, the fall caused the fracture, and there was a clubbing because they feared taking her to the hospital knowing that the molestation would probably be uncovered.

At any rate, with a long, narrow type of bruise area below the fracture, wouldn't the skull crack have had to meet up with the brain tissue to cause that? And with bruises at the temporal lobes, the brain tissue would have had to make contact with the skull - as mentioned elsewhere, kinda like shaking someone would do. Again, a bad fall could account for that also.

Thoughts????

 

[dodie20]

My 24 yr old daughter picked up a special People magazine, and it had features on different crime stories, including JBR. Unbeknownst to me, my 10 yr old daughter picked it up and skimmed through some of the stories. I told her to put it down, because she might have nightmares, but asked her what she thought of JB. So, here is a 10 yr old's perspective. She thinks it was one of the parents, simply because they would have heard an intruder bumbling around, because he wouldn't have belonged in their house, and they would have noticed the different sounds. She also thinks they would have heard JB scream and make noise. She thinks one of them was wearing gloves, and took JB to the basement, and locked the door. She thinks the other parent either helped, or at least knew, because how could all this go on, without the other one hearing something? She also thinks JR found and carried JB, for the sole purpose of having an excuse for his fingers prints and 'stuff' to be on her. She thinks BR was probably jealous of JB, but couldn't have done these things without his parents hearing. She also thinks he heard and knew what was going on, but stayed in bed because he didn't want to get hurt too, and he didn't tell, because he didn't want to wind up in an 'adoption center'. I aked her why she thought this happened, and she didn't really know, but thinks it might have had something to do with the pageants. The article was small and didn't go into detail, but she didn't like the picture of JR. She said it looked like he didn't even care, and 'how can somebody look like that?' moo

 

[SapphireSteel]

My 24 yr old daughter picked up a special People magazine, and it had features on different crime stories, including JBR. Unbeknownst to me, my 10 yr old daughter picked it up and skimmed through some of the stories. I told her to put it down, because she might have nightmares, but asked her what she thought of JB. So, here is a 10 yr old's perspective. She thinks it was one of the parents, simply because they would have heard an intruder bumbling around, because he wouldn't have belonged in their house, and they would have noticed the different sounds. She also thinks they would have heard JB scream and make noise. She thinks one of them was wearing gloves, and took JB to the basement, and locked the door. She thinks the other parent either helped, or at least knew, because how could all this go on, without the other one hearing something? She also thinks JR found and carried JB, for the sole purpose of having an excuse for his fingers prints and 'stuff' to be on her. She thinks BR was probably jealous of JB, but couldn't have done these things without his parents hearing. She also thinks he heard and knew what was going on, but stayed in bed because he didn't want to get hurt too, and he didn't tell, because he didn't want to wind up in an 'adoption center'. I aked her why she thought this happened, and she didn't really know, but thinks it might have had something to do with the pageants. The article was small and didn't go into detail, but she didn't like the picture of JR. She said it looked like he didn't even care, and 'how can somebody look like that?' moo

Wow.

Out of the mouths of babes.

You've got a smart one!

 

[txsvicki]

Doesn't Kolar believe that John figured it out after police were called or didn't know anything until finding the body? That's pretty much what i think, but can't figure out how Patsy convinced him to lie about Burke being asleep. I thjnk she basically set john up with that and framed burke for the strangulation in case he tried to leave her, but also never told him the truth or admitted to a thing.

 

[dodie20]

Doesn't Kolar believe that John figured it out after police were called or didn't know anything until finding the body? That's pretty much what i think, but can't figure out how Patsy convinced him to lie about Burke being asleep. I thjnk she basically set john up with that and framed burke for the strangulation in case he tried to leave her, but also never told him the truth or admitted to a thing.

If JR wasn't involved, and that's a big if, as far as I'm concerned, I think he knew enough about PR's habits in the basement, to go down there and check. Once he realized the cops weren't going anywhere, he might have gotten nervous about them finding her, or he may have just wanted her found and for the charade to end. In other words, if PR killed JB, this probably wasn't the first instance of abuse and JR would have been aware of how and where it usually happened... which led him to the basement. This would also explain why they got separate lawyers... because they weren't in on this together, and he was looking out for his own self. If JR wasn't involved, I doubt PR ever confessed to him, but he would have had motive to stay quiet, nonetheless. If this was a case of steadily escalating abuse, that led to death, JR would have had to answer to what he knew and saw, of what JB had told him, etc., and why he didn't intervene and protect his daughter. Better to just go with the intruder scenario. Actually, this makes sense, IMO, but making sense doesn't mean it happened this way. moo.

 

[dodie20]

Doesn't Kolar believe that John figured it out after police were called or didn't know anything until finding the body? That's pretty much what i think, but can't figure out how Patsy convinced him to lie about Burke being asleep. I thjnk she basically set john up with that and framed burke for the strangulation in case he tried to leave her, but also never told him the truth or admitted to a thing.

I also have an idea on the whole BR being awake and talking story. Maybe it wasn't a lie... because BR never backed his parent's story. He said, (during the GJ procedings), that he was awake in his room, but Prentended to be asleep. Why would he make up a story, that went against his parent's version? I know there was a lot of controversy surrounding the enhanced tapes...everything from there being no voices at all, to there being a conversation between JR and BR, and PR wailing to Jesus. When I listen, I hear voices, but not 3. I think it's possible that the conversation was between JR and PR, with her voice sounding childlike. Also, if that really was BR's voice on the 911, maybe JR and PR lied about him being asleep, so the cops would leave him alone and not ask him questions.

 

[txsvicki]

It's unreal that the cops and friends left him all alone up in that room without waking and speaking to him even if he did appear asleep. For all they knew he could be injured or drugged and only appeared asleep. Sort of like jonbenet appearing dead, but not. That sort of treatment and mindset is exactly why he was so troubled, if he really was.

 

[dodie20]

It's unreal that the cops and friends left him all alone up in that room without waking and speaking to him even if he did appear asleep. For all they knew he could be injured or drugged and only appeared asleep. Sort of like jonbenet appearing dead, but not. That sort of treatment and mindset is exactly why he was so troubled, if he really was.

thinking about a 9 yr old kid, laying in bed and hearing all the conversations, the crying, the goings on, and then thinking about what he heard, gives me the shivers. He admitted to pretending to sleep, so there's no telling what all he heard. If BR wasn't involved, (and I still haven't seen any evidence that points to him), it's moo, that 1 or both parents ordered him to stay in bed, until told otherwise. If I had 1 kid missing, the 1st thing I'd do, is get my other kid and get him out of the house...even if that meant us standing in the yard. For all the Rs knew, the kidnapper could have been hiding in BR's closet. moo .

 

[Chrishope]

If JR wasn't involved, and that's a big if, as far as I'm concerned, I think he knew enough about PR's habits in the basement, to go down there and check. Once he realized the cops weren't going anywhere, he might have gotten nervous about them finding her, or he may have just wanted her found and for the charade to end. In other words, if PR killed JB, this probably wasn't the first instance of abuse and JR would have been aware of how and where it usually happened... which led him to the basement. This would also explain why they got separate lawyers... because they weren't in on this together, and he was looking out for his own self. If JR wasn't involved, I doubt PR ever confessed to him, but he would have had motive to stay quiet, nonetheless. If this was a case of steadily escalating abuse, that led to death, JR would have had to answer to what he knew and saw, of what JB had told him, etc., and why he didn't intervene and protect his daughter. Better to just go with the intruder scenario. Actually, this makes sense, IMO, but making sense doesn't mean it happened this way. moo.

I certainly believe JR and PR were not in on it together, but that is not the reason for separate lawyers. Separate lawyers is standard practice where a husband and wife are both suspected (and as far as they knew, might eventually be charged). JR's lawyer has to provide the best possible defense w/o worrying that it might affect PR. Same goes for PR's lawyer. The lawyers can't fulfill their duty to their client if they have two clients. Even if JR/PR were in on it together they'd have separate lawyers.

 

[dodie20]

I certainly believe JR and PR were not in on it together, but that is not the reason for separate lawyers. Separate lawyers is standard practice where a husband and wife are both suspected (and as far as they knew, might eventually be charged). JR's lawyer has to provide the best possible defense w/o worrying that it might affect PR. Same goes for PR's lawyer. The lawyers can't fulfill their duty to their client if they have two clients. Even if JR/PR were in on it together they'd have separate lawyers.

Things were a lot different in 1996. First of all, parents of murdered children didn't hire lawyers...not separate, not joint, not at all. I guess after awhile, if they thought they were being looked at as suspects, they might have hired a lawyer to help straighten things out, but in 1996, the Rs hiring lawyers, was highly unusual. It was so unusual in fact, that it was the main reason the public started suspecting them. Now, people hire lawyers for everything, but unless parents have something to hide, they don't clam up and refuse to cooperate. They take LDTs, give interviews to LE, and turn over anything that is asked for. IMO, the Rs hiring separate lawyers was beyond unusual, it was astonishing. IMO, they separated themselves, because one was guilty and the other wasn't. MOO. Also, imo, the Rs set the standard for how people, with something to hide, still deal with LE, during an investigation. Lawyer up, clam up, and treat the cops like your enemy. MOO