Lloyd Welch is Person of Interest

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Looking at the timeline of Welch's known whereabouts, he did provide his address to the police a few days later on April 1, 1975.

From http://www.fbi.gov/baltimore/press-...napping-of-lyon-sisters-others-victims-sought

"Below is a timeline of Welch’s known whereabouts.

Date Location
January 9, 1974 Austin, Texas
March 25, 1975 Wheaton Plaza in Wheaton, Maryland
April 1, 1975
Address of 4714 Baltimore Avenue in Hyattsville, Maryland, provided to law enforcement"

So the police may have tracked Welch down, Welch may have come forward and called some tip line in hopes of getting the reward (in which case the police would know his name, address, phone number and tip but not his face unless they followed up in person) or there was some unrelated reason for Welch to provide his address Any ideas what the contact on April 1 was for?

The answer could be (d.) Any of the above.

My feeling is that MCP did not track Welch down based on the LHM sketch, but they might have developed him as a person of interest based on another eyewitness (not the girl who helped produce the sketch) placing him at the mall that day.

It is very possible that Welch called the police tip line on Tuesday, 1 April 1975 to state that he was at Wheaton Plaza that day and had some information about the girls. It was reported in February 2014 that Welch's mother remembered him saying that he wanted to call in a tip to try and claim a reward being offered.

Significantly, the 1 April 1975 issue of the Washington Post Newspaper included the following statement in the article which accompanied publication of the first TRM sketch (released by MCP on 31 March):

quote: "Although police said they received the description of the man last Friday (28 March), they said they did not want to release it publicly until the time was right... and all leads were checked."

"Police said they also had advised against the offeriing of a reward until all leads were checked. Yesterday (31 March 1975), with police approval, WMAL and the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists announced they are offering a $7,000 reward to the first person with information leading to the safe retrun of the girls. Lyon is an announcer for WMAL Radio." unqoute.

The article ended with a request that anyone with information call police at 946-xxxx (the tip line number).

I doubt that Welch gave police any information or statement regarding TRM because MCP was very specific in their later press releases that no one reported seeing TRM on 25 March, other than "Jimmy" and his buddy. However, the above press quote does tend to support the theory that Welch called in a tip to try and claim the reward on 1 April 1975.

It is possible that Welch was contacted or stopped by police on another matter on 1 April 1975 and gave them his address, but it would only be speculation as to what that would have been. Nothing is listed in the Maryland Judiciary records on line, so there were no charges made relating to any possible encounter with police.

In my mind, it is doubtful that some encounter between Welch and Police would be remembered or correlated today, unless it happened to be in the Lyon Case files.

My gut feeling is that Welch most likely gave his address to police in the course of giving them a tip relating to the girls in his effort to claim the reward.

Coincidentally, Montgomery County Police, back in 1988, reported that they knew Fred Coffey to have been in town and interviewing at Vitro Labrotories on 1 April 1975, and therefor they had an address for Fred Coffey, dated to that same exact day.
 
I would point out that the scenario of Welch trying to collect a reward is tempered by the fact that the conditions of the reward clearly stated that it was for "the safe return of the girls."

If Welch was indeed calling in a tip, it does not make much sense that he would be doing so after himself having harmed or killed the girls. I wonder what information he might have given over the phone, and just exactly what he did know.

Also, did the police follow up on the tip, or just ignore it and file it away?

It is possible also, that Welch may have simply been trying to give some general information which he could later claim was a strong tip if the girls happened to turn up safe. Others were calling in false tips and even demands for ransom at other times during this investigation.
 
I would point out that the scenario of Welch trying to collect a reward is tempered by the fact that the conditions of the reward clearly stated that it was for "the safe return of the girls."


That is a good point. I was only thirteen at the time and not paying attention to this case, but I think many hotlines offered and still offer tips with few questions asked. Likewise, I would guess many TV, radio, and news reports cut out "the safe return of the girls" or "leading to the conviction" or other fine print.

But since Welch was talking to his girlfriend and stepmother, perhaps about being at the mall or they knew he was at the mall, he might have called in a tip to just act like an innocent person and provide an innocent reason for seeing the girls. Welch could have also just told his girlfriend and stepmother he was going to call in, but never did, just to get them off his back, after some daydreaming of the reward.


From: http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...ppearance-of-Md-Sisters-Police-244783641.html

"Welch's stepmother, Edna Welch, told News4 she recalls Welch and Craver hearing about a reward in the case and Welch saying he was going to try to collect it.

"Lloyd and Helen were sitting on my sofa when the news broke about the girls, and they were talking about a reward for information," Edna Welch said. "Lloyd thought he was going to get something in it, I reckon, and he called in and said he knew something, but I don't think he knew a darn thing." "


Even if Welch is innocent of this murder, I would hope the police would have tracked him down from the sketch, not only to rule him out but to see if he saw anyone else around the girls. At the time, Welch had no known criminal record and had so few resources, no job, car, house, that I can see why the police passed on him as a prime suspect (and still a reason some people here don't like him as a suspect), but I would hope that the police knew his name and matched him to the sketch at the time, which does not appear all clear.

Were the police canvasing everyone walking around the mall and Kensington on April first? Welch, limited in his wanderings by his walking distance, might have been stopped like hundreds others and if he said he was at the mall that day, given his name and address to a patrol person, who may have written it down as one of the many tips for more senior investigators to follow if thought significant, more than "I was at the mall and saw nothing unusual."

Is there still a reward? Can I get a reward? LOL. I still think the bodies could be buried in the very small creek every time I jog by, and the police botched the search just as they botched keeping records of the security guards at the mall and passing on Welch at first and maybe not even knowing Welch's name at first.
 
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You mention the dogs, and I would like to touch on that aspect of the search for the girls. The dogs used were highly trained in tracking. They were two German shepherds owned and trained by Mr. Tom McQuinn of Philadelphia and it was Radio station WMAL that paid for him to bring them into the area.

The dogs did not begin their search until Tuesday morning, 1 April 1975, a full week after the girls disappeared. They searched the area of Wheaton Plaza, the roads and wooded areas of Kensington which the girls were believed to have used.

Being tracking dogs, it would have been proper procedure to have provided the dogs with the scents of the girls (from a pillow case, belt, item of clothing, etc) before starting out. Having trained tracking dogs myself, I can tell you that once they have the scent, it would not matter how many other people had been in the area, they could pick up their target scent and follow it. Each individual person has a scent which is as distinctly different to a tracking dog as DNA is to the experts.

There is some confusion as to exactly where the dogs picked up the girls's scent or where they may have lost it, but reports all state that the dogs did pick up their scent at some point early on.

Here is what was reported in the Washington Post on 2 April 1975:

Quote - (after discussing the ground search by volunteers which had been underway for a week) ... Yesterday morning, the search began again as two specially trained German shepherd apparently picked up the scent of the girls and led a path through a wooded area from a rear parking lot at Wheaton Plaza to the girls' home, one-half mile away.

Pointing to the woods behind the shopping center, police Capt. Gabriel Lamastra said yesterday that the use of the dogs "eliminated in my mind" the possibility "that the kids are lying around here".

Police also said they could not tell definitely whether the scent picked up by the dogs was from their journey to Wheaton Plaza March 25. But dog trainer Tom McGuinn doubted the girls' scents would last any longer than one week because of recent rain and wind storms. - unquote.

Here is a quote from the next day's paper: Quote - Two German Shepherds trained to track the scent of missing individuals spent four hours yesterday (2 April) going back over the area previously covered by police searchers., Those earlier police searches also had revealed no clues as to what happened to Sheila Lyon, 13, and her sister, Katherine, 11. - unquote
(note both girls' birthdays had just been the previous weekend)

....

The dog search resumed on 2 April and that is probably when they were in the larger wooded area between the McComas/Drumm intersection and Jennings Road. This is from Washington Post on 3 April:

Quote - Two specially trained dogs yesterday (2 April) again scoured two square miles near the Kensington home of the two missing Lyon sisters but failed to turn up any clues, Montgomery County police said. - unquote.

If there had been any kind of a burial or place where there was any blood, or a place in the woods where the girls lay under leaves, those dogs most likely would have found it.

I am not sure how much I trust search dogs days after the event, or newspapers a quarter century after the event, but this is the sentence in a Baltimore Sun article which made me think the bodies were either moved through, buried in or temporarily stored in in a creek until a car or large backpack could be obtained.

From: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2000-01-22/features/0001220313_1_montgomery-county-lyon-sisters

"Two German shepherds were brought in and led police across the Wheaton Plaza parking lot, down a hill and into a gully along a shallow creek, where they lost the scent."

The hill should be Drumm Ave, which two people saw the girls walk down.
A quick on-the-street, snatch-and-grab with a car would not involve moving into a gully along a creek.
 
Steve:

Where exactly is the creek that you reference? Is it along Drumm Avenue somewhere? Curious.
 
I am not sure how much I trust search dogs days after the event, or newspapers a quarter century after the event, but this is the sentence in a Baltimore Sun article which made me think the bodies were either moved through, buried in or temporarily stored in in a creek until a car or large backpack could be obtained.

From: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2000-01-22/features/0001220313_1_montgomery-county-lyon-sisters

"Two German shepherds were brought in and led police across the Wheaton Plaza parking lot, down a hill and into a gully along a shallow creek, where they lost the scent."

The hill should be Drumm Ave, which two people saw the girls walk down.
A quick on-the-street, snatch-and-grab with a car would not involve moving into a gully along a creek.

The quoted paragraph, written long after the event is probably the writer taking journalistic license with various bits of information. I have quoted news stories immediately following the searches and they only mentioned that the dogs had picked up traces of the girls' scent, not that they were following a track.

The dogs were walked down the roads and on the paths that the girls were thought to have walked, but no specific lengths of track were mentioned. Related stories spoke of police checking ponds, sewers, and stream beds, but they did not mention the dogs finding scents there.

It is hard to correlate the quoted description of terrain features to the actual lay of the land over which the girls' intended path was. Numerous possibilities exist. The writer might have actually walked the area. He/she may have read of the area from other reporters' descriptions. Or it is remotely possible that either the dog handler or accompanying police could have been located and interviewed.

My belief is that the dogs indicated that they recognized separate places where scent existed, but that they did not actually find or determine direction and exact track. They probably could not tell if the scent was from the girls walk to or from the mall.
 
Steve:

Where exactly is the creek that you reference? Is it along Drumm Avenue somewhere? Curious.

The only place where I might place a natural stream (not a rain water run-off area) would be close to the Kensington Gardens pond, near the intersection of Drumm and McComas. That pond is stream fed. But where the actual stream runs, I do not know.

Steve, where does the stream you refer to run?
 
4714 Baltimore Ave. Hyattsville, MD

The above address, which Welch claimed to have been his on 1 April 1975 is located only a few blocks north of the Peace Cross in Bladensburg, just inside the city limits of Hyattsville.

It is one of only two side-by-side residential houses set in a commercial/industrial area. It is a two story house probably built around 1930, and still standing, still residential.

This house is quite a ways from Wheaton Plaza. Certainly not walking distance. Probably about a 45 minute drive by car.
 
I figure that during and after rainstorms there is probably going to be a stream running just east of the 1967 (and 1975, presumably) western boundary of the nursing home, that will empty out into the storm drain on Drumm. I believe this is the same boundary that nowadays separates the Drumm Court subdivision from the Starner Court subdivision. It is quite possible or even likely that the path that the Lyon sisters took ran near this boundary, perhaps in the conservation easement that exists now in the western part of the Drumm Court subdivision. Near the middle of this easement there is a sewer easement dating from 1947, which I suppose has a sewer in it. Sewers tend to be built near places where creeks might be, since sewers need to be downhill from most of the surrounding land (as creeks are), and houses, etc., can't well be built near streams without having flooding problems. And conservation easements (which prohibit the cutting of trees except for extraordinary circumstances) tend to be designated near streams or gullies from temporary streams, where erosion is especially possible. It is obvious looking at topographical maps that there is something of a valley running about where the sewage easement is, even though there is no stream marked. This sewage easement starts at the end of Jennings Pl (the stub of a road that was never extended that the Washington Times article suggests is where the path through the wood started) and empties out into the clearing south of Hobson (eventually ending up near the storm drain, but probably not going into it since Montgomery County reasonably tries to separate sewage from storm drain runoff to make sewage treatment less costly). One possibility is that there was a path on or next to the sewer for maintenance purposes, which would have been on nursing home land, though.

A possibility is that a gully existed in the conservation easement, especially in the clearing south of Hobson (where there were no tree roots to protect from deep erosion), and that the path ran just west of this gully, more along the border line. When there is a sudden drop in a stream, there can be a great deal of undercutting taking place downstream from the drop. There is a place like that in the forest near our house here in North Carolina, where an intermittent stream goes over a large tree root that blocks the stream, producing a sudden drop. The left bank below is so scoured out underneath that the bank overhangs the stream by several feet, which we avoid walking on and which would be downright scary to be underneath. Now, if there were an overhanging bank overhanging (cantilevering) a stream, underneath would probably be the same scary, muddy, messy wet dirty area that exists in the stream bank here--I can't imagine the Lyon sisters would have gone into such a place (even to look at frogs that tend to hang out in such places at right time of year).

Suppose though that, say, right where the gully exited from the woods into the clearing, where it might have dropped precipitously, there had been scouring resulting in extremely overhanging banks, and that there had been partial (gradual?) cantilever failure of beam type (section 2.1.4 of this excellent article from New Zealand) on one bank that was stopped by the other bank, forming an arched bridge of sorts across the stream. The day previous, March 24, was a very rainy day in some places across the Washington area. There was a thunderstorm that went through the previous day around 4-5pm that hit National Airport (though probably missed Dulles). According to Weather Underground, National (DCA) got 1.35 inches for the day, about an inch of which was from the late afternoon storm. BWI got .77 inches for the day, while Dulles (IAD) supposedly got .17 inches (though the precipitation for Dulles isn't broken down by hour, so maybe there is something sketchy about the data there). It may have been that going south along the eastern edge of the clearing southish of Hobson was a standard shortcut from the mall, and that this would involve crossing the gully. The whole gully may have been a muddy, puddle-ridden mess except for where the natural bridge existed. The girls may have been walking together across the bridge to keep their shoes clean, perhaps not even realizing it was hollow underneath (and perhaps especially scoured by yesterday's storm), when the arch failed at the top, dropping them downward into a washed out area below. This would turn the remains of the arch into two cantilevers, each of which may have been too weak (quite possible since at least one had already collapsed partially) to be held without the arch. Thereupon, both stream banks may have collapsed on top of them, each a cantilever collapse of the beam type (the most common type of cantilever collapse), burying them under feet of mud and changing the stream bed from looking (upon close inspection) bizarre into looking like a fairly normal stream bed. The cantilever failure may have continued downstream a good ways, rendering the particular spot not especially unusual looking. But I am no expert on geology, much less stream bank geology, so maybe such bridges are essentially impossible, or maybe some other stream bank failure be responsible, or maybe there was no real gully there. Or indeed as SteveP120 suggested, a murderer may have buried them in the stream bed (or they are somewhere totally different--gullies and streams may have nothing to do with anything). Perhaps SteveP120 or someone else who lives nearby could drive or jog by the storm drain on Drumm after a storm and see how much of a stream is running into it? Maybe the stream SteveP120 was referring to was a stream in the place I indicated that he has seen there in his jogging?
 
Steve:

Where exactly is the creek that you reference? Is it along Drumm Avenue somewhere? Curious.

It is a very small creek, a foot or two wide, that does NOT show up on google maps and is covered by trees from the satellite view:

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&...s&ei=QEhEU5eVLLTUsASG2YDQBw&ved=0CBsQ8gEoADAA

There is a gap between two houses, an empty lot or what was a possible spot for a future road that never developed on Jennings Road. This is at the bottom of the hill on Jennings and the ground looks marshy or swampy to me. If it was like most other woods in the area, there would have been plenty of paths crisscrossing it, but I think the most likely path would have been straight to the future Drumm-Court, which would also on high ground, out of the "gully" which is only maybe waist high.

The very small creek runs through a pipe under Drumm Avenue right where Drumm Ave stops from the Weaton Plaza Side today. At some time in the past, not sure in 1975, Drumm Avenue was not blocked off to through traffic.

The pipe then runs under Drumm Ave, runs in the pipe past one house on the other side, forms a slightly larger but still small creek which runs parallel to Drumm and connects with the Creek shown on Google Maps (Behind Red Orchid Ct. which was not there in 1975)

I'll try to get a better description or or mark up a Google Map or take some photos when I have time or jog by again.

Today the pond might be fed by natural run-off water during storms, but never saw an always wet creek run into it. It may have been different in the 70s. Jutland Road was not completed then so there might have been another small stream feeding the pond or just run-off water from McComas Ave. McComas Ave is the low ground between higher ground on both sides so run-off water would run down the side of McComas Ave. or a storm drain under McComas Ave.
 
The quoted paragraph, written long after the event is probably the writer taking journalistic license with various bits of information. I have quoted news stories immediately following the searches and they only mentioned that the dogs had picked up traces of the girls' scent, not that they were following a track.

If dogs were useful in this situation, the police might have used their own or local dogs the first, second or third day prior to the dogs the radio station brought in a week later. Like many other things in this or any investigation, including the sketch that looks like Welch, the police might not have released the results of their dog search.

Bits might have leaked out to the Baltimore Sun newspaper, who from the quotes appears to have interviewed some detective. Or it could just be a second or third hand right or wrong rumor picked up by the paper. The rest of the article seemed accurate to me.
 
4714 Baltimore Ave. Hyattsville, MD

The above address, which Welch claimed to have been his on 1 April 1975 is located only a few blocks north of the Peace Cross in Bladensburg, just inside the city limits of Hyattsville.

It is one of only two side-by-side residential houses set in a commercial/industrial area. It is a two story house probably built around 1930, and still standing, still residential.

This house is quite a ways from Wheaton Plaza. Certainly not walking distance. Probably about a 45 minute drive by car.

This did bother me since he was known to walk everywhere along the train tracks from Silver Spring (which is next to Takoma Park), The Castle (National Seminary) Kensington, and to Wheaton Plaza.

He was known to run away and to stay at homeless shelters or his real address might have been in Silver Spring and he gave the Hyattsville address as his official address which could have been his parent's address.

My parent's address in Maryland was my official address on my drivers license for decades even when I was even outside of the USA.
 
IBut I am no expert on geology, much less stream bank geology, so maybe such bridges are essentially impossible, or maybe some other stream bank failure be responsible, or maybe there was no real gully there. Or indeed as SteveP120 suggested, a murderer may have buried them in the stream bed (or they are somewhere totally different--gullies and streams may have nothing to do with anything). Perhaps SteveP120 or someone else who lives nearby could drive or jog by the storm drain on Drumm after a storm and see how much of a stream is running into it? Maybe the stream SteveP120 was referring to was a stream in the place I indicated that he has seen there in his jogging?

It's a very small creek at most two feet wide and only a few inches deep. On a normal day, I would guess it's flow is only a gallon a second at most.

But still if it rained that much, it might make it easier for someone to dig a grave?
 
I figure that during and after rainstorms there is probably going to be a stream running just east of the 1967 (and 1975, presumably) western boundary of the nursing home, that will empty out into the storm drain on Drumm. I believe this is the same boundary that nowadays separates the Drumm Court subdivision from the Starner Court subdivision. It is quite possible or even likely that the path that the Lyon sisters took ran near this boundary, perhaps in the conservation easement that exists now in the western part of the Drumm Court subdivision. Near the middle of this easement there is a sewer easement dating from 1947, which I suppose has a sewer in it. Sewers tend to be built near places where creeks might be, since sewers need to be downhill from most of the surrounding land (as creeks are), and houses, etc., can't well be built near streams without having flooding problems. And conservation easements (which prohibit the cutting of trees except for extraordinary circumstances) tend to be designated near streams or gullies from temporary streams, where erosion is especially possible. It is obvious looking at topographical maps that there is something of a valley running about where the sewage easement is, even though there is no stream marked. This sewage easement starts at the end of Jennings Pl (the stub of a road that was never extended that the Washington Times article suggests is where the path through the wood started) and empties out into the clearing south of Hobson (eventually ending up near the storm drain, but probably not going into it since Montgomery County reasonably tries to separate sewage from storm drain runoff to make sewage treatment less costly). One possibility is that there was a path on or next to the sewer for maintenance purposes, which would have been on nursing home land, though.

Jogging by today, I noticed there is a storm drain at the "stub of a road" on Jennings Place.

Before the storm drains were installed, there must have been a fair size creek running alongside McComas Ave. Today while jogging up McComas Ave, a 1-foot wide "creek" running between two houses was flowing to under McComas Ave to what must be a storm drain, and this would have only been a fraction of the area draining into the drains in the McComas Ave "valley." Before Peregory Drive was built, all that area must have drained into a McComas Ave "creek."

The nursing home was built in the 1920s before all the tract house and storm drains. What is left of a creek is now a 50-yard long ditch that feeds into the small pond entirely on the Nursing home property parallel and adjacent to McComas Ave.

The pond is also fed by what I think is a gravity fountain, which was barely shooting water up in the air one foot today. In the ditch/former creek, there was remains of what looked like a three-foot high dam made of old concrete blocks. This may have established another pond in the past and provided more water pressure for the gravity fountain. The small dam did not survive a storm. There is no above ground creek draining out of the pond; it must overflow into the storm drains.
 
They are large bitmap files about 3MB each:....

... From Google Satellite Map with where creek is today. Most of the houses were not there in 1975

http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm4.bmp


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http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm4.bmp


Interesting aerial view. Thanks for posting it SteveP.

What are the street number addresses of the two houses on either side of the "road stub" or vacant lot on Jennings?

As you point out, this is what the area looks like today. Back in 1975, most of the houses on Jennings that you see were in existance. But all of the larger houses on Drumm Court did not exist. Neither did Drumm Court or the portion of Drumm Ave to the west of McComas.

The stream that you outline in the photo seems to end at the pipeline right at the West End stopping point of Drumm Ave. If I am reading it right? Drumm does resume further to the West (left of the photo), but there is a small portion which is only a walking path involving some stairs.

I wonder if the reason for Drumm being segmented like this might have been due to wetlands/streambed restrictions.
 
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What are the street number addresses of the two houses on either side of the "road stub" or vacant lot on Jennings?
.......

The stream that you outline in the photo seems to end at the pipeline right at the West End stopping point of Drumm Ave. If I am reading it right?
......
I wonder if the reason for Drumm being segmented like this might have been due to wetlands/streambed restrictions.

When jogging, I took a look at the house number to the left of the street-stub while looking towards the woods. All I remember is that it ended in 101 (an easy to remember number). I think it's 3101 Jennings, but I am not sure.

Yes you are right about the stream ending or going into a pipeline until it comes out 100 yards away or so, assuming it's the same pipe.

At one point in the past, Drumm Ave was a thru road that one could drive through, but this was before, likely well before the late 90s when I moved into the area.

Until about 2003, Drumm Ave was a much narrower road without sidewalks and was not leveled. I have seen on maps from around 1950 that Drumm road had a different name, Keener or something, and was marked on the map at a through road at that time.
 
Thanks for photo and map, SteveP180. It's useful knowing where the creeks are and how much they amount to. As for the path you drew, it has the advantage of being more direct, but the disadvantage that (in my opinion) it somewhat doesn't jive as well with Mary Ann Kuhn's article: "The wooded path brought them out to a clearing behind the white two-story house of Mrs. Mary Tolker" (3108 McComas). The path you suggest would pass within just 25 yards or so of the middle of the nursing home's shed and be more of an incursion on nursing home property. I'm slightly more inclined to think the standard path was totally outside nursing home property, just on the Sterner Ct side of the border line between the new Sterner Ct subdivision and the new Drumm Ct subivision. At the present time one can see (especially on the satellite or aerial photos from Microsoft Maps that are taken at an angle) a well worn dirt area, like a path, right next to the present woods along the creek, on the Sterner Ct side. (The new Sterner Ct subdivision is rather strange in that the land along that woods all belongs to one lot.) Still, it well could be though that the clearing whose eastern edge was south of 3108 McComas was far and hidden enough from the nursing home buildings that kids felt comfortable using it as a shortcut, going essentially north-south along the eastern edge, depending on its muddiness, perhaps. Similarly, they may have cut a corner at the northern end of Jennings Pl, but that doesn't feel as important, exposed as it was to the view of houses on Jennings Rd. Unfortunately, there just doesn't seem to be a clear way of knowing what the customary route was in the area the timeline probably most suggests they disappeared from. We've already discussed much of the difficulties of this in the "Planning the Trip to the Mall" thread.

I know it would be bizarre if the Lyon Sisters were swallowed alive and buried by a creek a few inches deep. But the creek near here with a deeply undercut moderately scary bank has less of a flow than the one there, and the vegetation about the creek in the photo has probably changed greatly, especially near Drumm--it may have been a deeper gully formerly. Still, I tried for a couple hours searching online for cases where small creeks have buried people with stream bank failure, and have found nothing (though in limestone areas (unlike Kensington) sinkholes can and do swallow people, and people often get swept away during floods when creek banks they are walking on collapse). Any such phenomenon if possible must be extremely unlikely. I think someone said here a few years ago the saying that if you hear hoof beats, don't assume they are made by zebras when they can be made by horses, very true. But I am inclined also to say that if you hear zebras, don't be surprised by camels, russian bears, and platypus, because you're probably at the zoo. Bizarre occurrences may well have bizarre explanations as if bizarre goes together. Not that I think getting buried by collapsing creek banks is what happened to the Lyon sisters, but thought it worth throwing out the idea.
 
I know it would be bizarre if the Lyon Sisters were swallowed alive and buried by a creek a few inches deep. But the creek near here with a deeply undercut moderately scary bank has less of a flow than the one there, and the vegetation about the creek in the photo has probably changed greatly, especially near Drumm--it may have been a deeper gully formerly.idea.

Prior to a storm drain system being installed after WWII, I am sure the streams carried more water than the minor remaining natural streams. The creeks may have been deeper also, and some of the cuts may have survived to 1975.

For example, I was surprised to find that the half-block ditch on the McCommas side of the Nursing home was actually an old natural creek. Decent size creeks just don't naturally start and end in a half block, but in this case every part of the creek above the nursing home is now a pipe and the water leaving the pond must also travel through a pipe under Drumm Ave.

I did not know the address of Mrs. Mary Tolker; thanks for providing it.
However the line-of sight from her backyard garden, or any backyard on McComas near Drumm Ave would support many views of where the path could come out.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=3108...=us&ei=-JlFU6CqHuqs0AH32oDwDw&ved=0CCoQ8gEwAA

While deer wander the area and jump over fences, the wooded area is now fenced off to humans and would require walking through a small backyard of one of the new houses. I doubt any current footpath has much relation to footpaths 40 years ago. But from similar woods, there were likely paths all over the place, and people would choose the shortest dry path.

Of course if a well-traveled footpath was right next to a creek, it would greatly reduce the chance of someone spending half an hour digging a grave next to a well traveled path. But I am sure anyone up to no-good (drinking, smoking, checking out shoplifted goods, trying to make out with a girl..) would move off the well-traveled path to begin with to be out of sight.
 
....

... At one point in the past, Drumm Ave was a thru road that one could drive through, but this was before, likely well before the late 90s when I moved into the area.

Until about 2003, Drumm Ave was a much narrower road without sidewalks and was not leveled. I have seen on maps from around 1950 that Drumm road had a different name, Keener or something, and was marked on the map at a through road at that time.

That is not actually the case regarding this section of Drumm Ave. I have old maps dating back before 1975, and shortly after it. The oldest map shows Drumm Ave running from University along its present course, but stopping at McComas. That map shows a stubb out, but no through road. This is the way it was when the Lyon girls walked to and from the Mall.

Drumm Ave resumed several hundred yards west of McComas and ended at Plyers Mill Road. There is another road immediately across Plyers Mill (like a cross road intersection), but it was not called Drumm after crossing Plyers Mill.

On a 1981 vintage map, Drumm is shown as a through and through road running all the way from Plyers Mill, across McComas and all the way up to University. This, however, was only wishfull thinking on the part of the map maker, and not reality, because Drumm has never been a continuous road as it was depicted on that map. The same map showed Jennings place as a dashed line proposed roadway, which we also know was never built. Like the Drumm stubout off McComas in 1975, Jennings Place stubout existed and both stubouts led only to walking paths.

At some time after 1975, Drumm Ave was extended From McComas, west to the place where the stream and pipeline exist, but there is still a distance between there and where it resumes that only pedestrians can walk.
 
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