Lloyd Welch is Person of Interest

[steveP120]

In this YouTube video, there is a picture of the path from Drumm Street at 1:50 (one minute and fifty seconds into the video).

Unsolved Mysteries - The Lyon sisters Disappearance 1975 - YouTube

Since the other photographs in the video look copied from news sources, likely without permission claiming fair use, I would guess he copied the photo of the path from from some news source.

Any idea what newspaper the photo came from or there any other photographs out there?

The path looked much wider and straighter than most foot paths through woods. There was no stream on either side of the path.

The steepness of the path and the type of trees seemed consistent with the area looking up from Drumm Ave.

But there were no landmarks that I could use to place the location.

 

[Gruffin]

Looking into the matter further, mostly I doubt now there even was a clearing south of Mrs. Tolker's. USGS has available two quite high resolution photos of the area from 1964. The one taken in March shows to my untrained eye what looks like a clearing there as I have suggested. But then in the September photo, it is obviously full of trees. Something about the deciduous vegetation there makes it not show up in March as much as the other trees (which I also assume are mostly deciduous). The clearing near the nursing home definitely is there, though, and an exit from it is indeed where now Drumm Ct enters into Drumm Ave. I can't find any detailed photo near 1975. Perhaps I shall upload suitable portions of the photos, but I am too tired now.

 

[steveP120]

Looking into the matter further, mostly I doubt now there even was a clearing south of Mrs. Tolker's. USGS has available two quite high resolution photos of the area from 1964. The one taken in March shows to my untrained eye what looks like a clearing there as I have suggested. But then in the September photo, it is obviously full of trees. Something about the deciduous vegetation there makes it not show up in March as much as the other trees (which I also assume are mostly deciduous). The clearing near the nursing home definitely is there, though, and an exit from it is indeed where now Drumm Ct enters into Drumm Ave. I can't find any detailed photo near 1975. Perhaps I shall upload suitable portions of the photos, but I am too tired now.

At this time of year, even if there were trees in the "clearing" Mrs. Tolker should have had a good view of Drumm Avenue from the small creek to McComas Ave.

I would imagine reporters knocked on doors of everyone within eyesight and she was the only one with anything half-interesting to say about gardening and seeing people walk by in general.

 

[steveP120]

In this YouTube video, there is a picture of the path from Drumm Street at 1:50 (one minute and fifty seconds into the video).

Unsolved Mysteries - The Lyon sisters Disappearance 1975 - YouTube

Since the other photographs in the video look copied from news sources, likely without permission claiming fair use, I would guess he copied the photo of the path from from some news source.

Any idea what newspaper the photo came from or there any other photographs out there?

The path looked much wider and straighter than most foot paths through woods. There was no stream on either side of the path.

The steepness of the path and the type of trees seemed consistent with the area looking up from Drumm Ave.

But there were no landmarks that I could use to place the location.

When I got home I took a second look at the photograph in full-screen mode under a higher-resolution YouTube setting.

While there is no creek on either side of the path, the path might jump over a small creek. There is what looks like a shadow or gully under the text "police."
Near the text "police" there is something rectangular that looks like a home- made bridge. There are slight dark areas horizontally across extending from the text "police" that might be a gully.

If this is the case, the photograph would not be a direct path from Drumm Ave . to Jennings St, but a side-path parallel to Drumm Ave crossing the creek.

Or I could be looking at shadows and trash.

 

[Gruffin]

The steepness of the path and the type of trees seemed consistent with the area looking up from Drumm Ave.

But there were no landmarks that I could use to place the location.

If it involves Drumm, I'm thinking the picture may be looking NE along what is now Drumm Ave and the hole in the middle of the picture is I'm thinking the storm drain/catchbasin uncovered (for searching, presumably) and there is I guess a ladder or temporary bridge to the right placed over the creek you posted the photo of. Going to Google street view, one can see today a forked tree on the S side of the storm drain, and a sycamore (with whitish bark) on the N side of the storm drain. Similar trees in similar positions exist smaller in the video picture, though they look like they may be closer together in the video picture, so I don't know. I think I see posts in the background, which first made me think the picture looks SW, but maybe there were posts on the other side formerly. I think Mr. Mann said that the middle part of Drumm was a pedestrian path, and it shows up on old maps as unpaved. Another place there are posts is at northern end of Jennings Pl. Interesting find.

It seems like there is a hint of path on far side of the creek (along sewage easement?), and a hint of bank undercutting as well, but maybe I am imagining things and getting ahead of myself.

 

[steveP120]

I captured the photo in the YouTube video in "high" resolution.

http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm5.bmp

a guess of what it is

http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm6.bmp

It would be interesting to know why the YouTube poster thinks, "This is the final sighting of the sisters that is absolutely confirmed by the police."

 

[steveP120]

---------------------
http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm4.bmp


Interesting aerial view. Thanks for posting it SteveP.

What are the street number addresses of the two houses on either side of the "road stub" or vacant lot on Jennings?


.

While jogging, I double checked and the houses on the left and right of the "road stub" looking towards the woods were 3101 and 3015.

The jump from 3101 to 3015 did not seem consistent to me so I checked on Zillow which confirmed it. Zillow also had good satellite photos and the years all the houses were built. I would guess the jump from 3015 to 30101 was because it was planed as an end of a block ending at never built Jennings Place, the road stub.

 

[steveP120]

On a 1981 vintage map, Drumm is shown as a through and through road running all the way from Plyers Mill, across McComas and all the way up to University. This, however, was only wishfull thinking on the part of the map maker, and not reality, because Drumm has never been a continuous road as it was depicted on that map.

I heard second hand from one local resident that one "could" drive through Drumm Ave, but he did not say if it was ever paved. Parts of it were not even leveled or very wide when I started jogging on it in the late 1990s, when it was on the side of Kensington Orchids, a real working orchid (now a subdivision). And I saw it on a 1940's/50s map. I'll have to ask around if I run into any older residents.

He could have meant that it was an unpaved dirt road/driveway that one could drive on if one did not mind squeezing between trees and driving through mud puddles at 15mph.

 

[steveP120]

If it involves Drumm, I'm thinking the picture may be looking NE along what is now Drumm Ave and the hole in the middle of the picture is I'm thinking the storm drain/catchbasin uncovered (for searching, presumably) and there is I guess a ladder or temporary bridge to the right placed over the creek you posted the photo of. Going to Google street view, one can see today a forked tree on the S side of the storm drain, and a sycamore (with whitish bark) on the N side of the storm drain. Similar trees in similar positions exist smaller in the video picture, though they look like they may be closer together in the video picture, so I don't know. I think I see posts in the background, which first made me think the picture looks SW, but maybe there were posts on the other side formerly. I think Mr. Mann said that the middle part of Drumm was a pedestrian path, and it shows up on old maps as unpaved. Another place there are posts is at northern end of Jennings Pl. Interesting find.

If Drumm Ave was in that bad shape, unpaved and little more than an old farm driveway, it could be looking NE along what is now Drumm Ave. over the creek as you suggest. It would be nice if someone knew what newspaper the photograph came from.

There are posts to block off traffic at both Drumm Ave. and Jennings Pl. (well past the empty lot and into the woods). These are 4 by 4 or 6 by 6 square wood posts. The ones near Jenning Pl. are painted white while the posts on Drumm Ave are painted brown. The posts on Drumm Ave may have been installed in the late 80s or 90s when Drumm Ave was improved and the paved walking path built.

The posts off Jenning Pl. are a bit unusual that they are well past the end of the stub road and past the empty lot/unfinished road and into the brush. Perhaps there was some legal requirement to install posts at the end of every unfinished road. It would be unusual if the trail was actually wide enough for a car to drive on and the posts were actually needed to stop people from driving a car from Jenning Road/Place to Drumm Ave.

 

[steveP120]

Plyers Mill Road and McComas are clearly marked.
An unnamed-on-map unpaved road (dashed lines), the future Drumm Ave, is between Plyers Mill and McComas. I just eyeballed it, but it looks like a good if not perfect match to me:

http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm7.bmp

Also there is an unpaved road where the future Drumm Court would be (which is why posts might be needed to keep people from driving on it from Jennings Rd), would be my guess as to where the footpath was.

From the larger map:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/maryland/txu-pclmaps-topo-md-kensington-1942.jpg

 

[steveP120]

Drumm Ave or whatever the unpaved road was called then (Keener St?) appears to date to 1906 or earlier and was one of the first/few roads between Kensington and Wheaton.

I suppose it could look as bad as it did, little more than a path, like a late 1800s road would in 1975 in that YouTube photo.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/maryland/txu-pclmaps-topo-md-rockville-1906.jpg

I am sure, like all country roads at the time, it was open to through traffic, but unable to handle modern vehicles and traffic, through traffic was prohibited later.

 

[Gruffin]

Below are two aerial photographs of Kensington Heights from 1964, one taken March 16, the other September 24. They are higher resolution than anything from 1970s I could find. They might give an idea of the location of the clearing (behind Mrs. Tolker's house) referred to in the Washington Times article, and being at different times during the year, they help reveal the difference between a clearing and a woods with no leaves on the trees. And they show how Drumm Ave formerly looked between Plyers Mill and McComas. I wanted to include the mall area as well, but too many pixels. One may use Earth Explorer to find similar photos.


March 16, 1964



September 24, 1964

Credit: U.S. Geological Survey
Department of the Interior/USGS

 

[Richard]

Below are two aerial photographs of Kensington Heights from 1964, one taken March 16, the other September 24. They are higher resolution than anything from 1970s I could find. They might give an idea of the location of the clearing (behind Mrs. Tolker's house) referred to in the Washington Times article, and being at different times during the year, they help reveal the difference between a clearing and a woods with no leaves on the trees. And they show how Drumm Ave formerly looked between Plyers Mill and McComas. I wanted to include the mall area as well, but too many pixels. One may use Earth Explorer to find similar photos.
View attachment 42675
March 16, 1964
View attachment 42676
September 24, 1964

Credit: U.S. Geological Survey
Department of the Interior/USGS

-----------------------

Excellent Photos. The first one from March 1964 is the best for seeing terrain and houses.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42675&d=1397162888

The intersection of McComas and Drumm Ave, is located just northwest (left and up) from the Nursing Home pond. Mrs. Tolker's House is the white one, fourth from the right from that intersection.

Looking at Jennings Road, you can see the Lyon house which faces the south west on the corner lot where Jennings and Plyers Mill intersect. Their address was Plyers Mill Road, while all the others to the right of their house have Jennings Road addresses.

The Girls would have walked out their house, turned right on Jennings to where the empty lot appears and then would have cut in there to be on the path. I think that it must have been almost a straight line from that point to Mrs. Tolker's house, and then they would have turned right onto what is now Drumm, but at the time was just a dirt ingress or path leading to the intersection of Drumm and McComas.

I do not believe that they walked down the Nursing Home service drive. That roadway looks to be somewhat parallel to where the path went in places, but too wide to the right (when going to the mall).

Looking at the aerial photo, it would seem to me that the path would not have been much of a "short cut" compared to the Lyon girls walking a short distance west and just following Drumm all the way down its current course. But they were kids and probably went where all the other kids on Jennings went - down the path. For other kids on Jennings, going to the intersection of Drumm and Plyers Mill would have been a longer walk.

The reason that I feel the path was probably fairly straight is that it was supposed to be a short cut and when you look at such paths, you see that they are like that because people want to cut corners and get where they want to go quickly. I think that the only meandering or curving that the path took would have been to allow for easy walking over the terrain.

Newspaper and TV reporters did stick their microphones into anybody's face who happened along to get comments and reactions, etc. But I feel that Mary Ann Kuhn, who wrote the very detailed Washington Star article was pretty focussed and thorough in her investigation. It sounds as if she actually walked the path that the girls took, and attempted to interview people along the route and close to it.

My gut feel is that - rather than going door to door all over the neighborhood - Ms. Kuhn probably saw Mrs. Tolker in her garden and approached her while walking the path because she could see the strategic view that the garden afforded. Unfortunately, as stated in the article, Mrs. Tolker was not at home, but rather at an 11AM Dental Appointment.

The "clearing" she refers to is probably the aparent pathway which is now a paved part of Drumm Ave west of McComas, which is clearly visible between the houses and the pond on the above referenced aerial view.

 

[Richard]

Getting back to Welch as a person of interest...

I wonder just what connections he had to the area, besides just hanging out at the mall.

Questions that come to mind would be who were his buddies? Who did he hang out with?

More specifically, did he have any connections to any of the eyewitnesses who came forward, such as the two boys driving down Drumm?

 

[steveP120]

Below are two aerial photographs of Kensington Heights from 1964, one taken March 16, the other September 24. They are higher resolution than anything from 1970s I could find. They might give an idea of the location of the clearing (behind Mrs. Tolker's house) referred to in the Washington Times article, and being at different times during the year, they help reveal the difference between a clearing and a woods with no leaves on the trees. And they show how Drumm Ave formerly looked between Plyers Mill and McComas.

Thanks for posting the photos.

Even from the air, Drumm Avenue is much narrower than any of the other newer roads in the area.

The first five house on McComas Ave to the left of Drumm Ave have backyards that extend all the way to Drumm Ave. Today I jogged by on the front sidewalk of these houses on McComas and I was able to view through their frontyards, sideyards and backyards all of Drumm Ave. from McComas to the small creek. I was even able to see someone at about where the creek is. A path, clearing or person could have been seen by anyone in any of those five houses on McComas Ave. Unless you take it literally that the path/clearing ended at her backyard, it does not tell you much. If you take it literally, her backyard on MComas is about halfway between Drumm Ct and the small creek.

Of the four old houses in the mid-section of Drumm Ave on the 1942 map, only one is there today, but unless I am seeing shadows, all four seem to be in the 1964 photographs.

The house at 10707 Drumm address has been replaced by a 1990s house at the same location. There is a smaller house opposite 10707 Drumm Ave. (address unknown), on the north side of Drumm that looks old and is likely the same house that was there in 1942 and is still occupied.

The two other houses are more interesting as to where a path would go. There appears to be an "old Drumm Court house" both in the 1942 map and 1964 photos. Likewise, there appears to be an "old Starner Ct house" both in the 1942 map and 1964 photograph. Both of these have been replaced by McMansion mini-subdivisions in the 1990s-2000s.

If the Drumm Court house was not occupied or demolished by 1975, I would guess that walking down the old driveway/road to Drumm Ave. would be the quickest. If they had to walk around an occupied house (no mention was made of in the press? anyone?) this would push the path away from the house and nearer the creek.

The only clearing I see in the photographs is in front of the nursing center (which also had a Drumm Ave entrance in 1964, but not now) and somewhat in front of the "old Drumm Court House. Someone mentioned a guard house that might be what I am calling the "old Drumm Court house?

 

[steveP120]

Getting back to Welch as a person of interest...

I wonder just what connections he had to the area, besides just hanging out at the mall.

Questions that come to mind would be who were his buddies? Who did he hang out with?

More specifically, did he have any connections to any of the eyewitnesses who came forward, such as the two boys driving down Drumm?

It would be interesting to know, but any friends-of-Welch likely don't want to be publicly named.

Any eyewitness who saw Welch and knew Welch would likely name Welch by name to the police.

The boys in the car likely did not see Welch since Welch was a few minutes ahead of the girls, behind the girls, took a different route and so on.

Welch did someone get home and if he walked his usual way home, a few people likely saw him. Hundreds of people saw him at the mall, but Welch did not make a memorable enough impression on anyone except the girl who did the police sketch as far as we know.

The real police may have messed things up a bit, nobody's perfect, but any real police reading this must be laughing at for not even knowing where the path was and what the road looked like or if it was even a road in 1975.

 

[steveP120]

I captured the photo in the YouTube video in "high" resolution.

http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm5.bmp

a guess of what it is

http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm6.bmp

It would be interesting to know why the YouTube poster thinks, "This is the final sighting of the sisters that is absolutely confirmed by the police."

I did find the picture used in a 2014 newscast on the case, by a local TV station,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hKX1BjUZ2g

so I would give it the credibility of a local news report, more than just some guy on YouTube.

However it was only used in the background for a couple of seconds and no description of the picture was provided. It would be interesting to know if more of a description was provided in 1975 when the photo was taken or if any similar photos of Drumm Ave or the path were taken.

 

[steveP120]

This did bother me since he was known to walk everywhere along the train tracks from Silver Spring (which is next to Takoma Park), The Castle (National Seminary) Kensington, and to Wheaton Plaza.

He was known to run away and to stay at homeless shelters or his real address might have been in Silver Spring and he gave the Hyattsville address as his official address which could have been his parent's address.

My parent's address in Maryland was my official address on my drivers license for decades even when I was even outside of the USA.

The Hyattsville address looks like his father's and stepmother's address.

From: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ryland-sisters-delaware-sex-offender/5601455/

"Welch's mother was killed in a car accident caused by his father who had been driving drunk, Hawn said. Welsh was in the car at the time, she added.

After a time in foster care, Welsh went to live with his father, stepmother and Hawn in Hyattsville, Md. He was about 11 or 12.

"In that year, all I remember is him and his dad arguing, fighting and him leaving," she said. "Coming back, getting in trouble with the police, but that's about all I remember.""

 

[steveP120]

Below the sketch of Welch? at Wheaton Plaza in 1975 it describes him as wearing
a light colored Peters Jacket, blue and white striped shirt and white pants.

OK, I had similar outfits at the time, but I wore them to school or work. It sounds a bit fancy for someone who walks railroad tracks and stays in homeless shelters. White pants are difficult to keep clean anywhere.

sketch from:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...est-1975-case-missing-girls-article-1.1609338

 

[Richard]

Below the sketch of Welch? at Wheaton Plaza in 1975 it describes him as wearing
a light colored Peters Jacket, blue and white striped shirt and white pants.

OK, I had similar outfits at the time, but I wore them to school or work. It sounds a bit fancy for someone who walks railroad tracks and stays in homeless shelters. White pants are difficult to keep clean anywhere.

sketch from:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...est-1975-case-missing-girls-article-1.1609338

Thanks for the link. Note that at the very end of the article is a photo of the Second edition of the Tape Recorder Man Sketch. Under it is a caption which obviously refers to Welch and the LHM sketch.

As I have mentioned before, the TRM is so much a part of the Lyon Sisters story, that his sketch is included in almost all articles about them.

To be clear, I believe that the outfit described refers to what LHM was wearing that day. It might or might not have been Welch. But white pants? Probably bell bottoms or flared. Now that is one happening dude! I wonder if he also had high heeled lift shoes and a white belt to go with the pants.