Pinkhammer
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Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 20
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TRIAL OF CHAD DAYBELL CHARGED WITH MURDER OF JJ VALLOW, TYLEE RYAN AND TAMMY DAYBELL #5- Latest: nodamselindistress
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Texana
Overreaching
Exactly. And let's be honest, eventually the excrement smell DOES dissipate...but the human or animal body continues to decompose and continue to give off gases for a very long time. Particularly if there are no natural forces aiding the decomposition such as weather or other animals.
april4sky
It is not who is right, but what is right, that is
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Can you trust a cadaver dog if there's no cadaver?
http://www.slate.com/id/2174177
Not reallyespecially if a lot of time has elapsed since the body was removed from the scene. Cadaver dogs can find the remains of people who have been dead for years or even decades.But it's much harder for the dogs if the bulk of the remains are gone. In that case, they can pick up the scent from small amounts of body tissue, like a blood stain or nail clippings, or even from materials that came into contact with the tissue. But in the absence of an actual body, the smell of death will dissipate.
Without a body, they can't be certain that the animals didn't make a mistake. Cadaver dogs do mess up from time to time
a handler can only say something along the lines of, "My dog is giving an indication consistent with human blood." He can't say definitively that, yes, a body was present, without further confirmationin the form of a blood stain, for example.
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It seems there is a big difference between finding a body....and not finding a body.
So we are back to DNA and whether the PJ have any proof Madeleine is dead.....I think they have already said they don't know.
http://www.slate.com/id/2174177
Not reallyespecially if a lot of time has elapsed since the body was removed from the scene. Cadaver dogs can find the remains of people who have been dead for years or even decades.But it's much harder for the dogs if the bulk of the remains are gone. In that case, they can pick up the scent from small amounts of body tissue, like a blood stain or nail clippings, or even from materials that came into contact with the tissue. But in the absence of an actual body, the smell of death will dissipate.
Without a body, they can't be certain that the animals didn't make a mistake. Cadaver dogs do mess up from time to time
a handler can only say something along the lines of, "My dog is giving an indication consistent with human blood." He can't say definitively that, yes, a body was present, without further confirmationin the form of a blood stain, for example.
***************
It seems there is a big difference between finding a body....and not finding a body.
So we are back to DNA and whether the PJ have any proof Madeleine is dead.....I think they have already said they don't know.
ThoughtFox
Expecting the Unexpected
Lack of a body does not mean the body wasn't there. In the Danielle Van Dam case, the body was no longer in the perp's vehicle, but was found later in a vacant lot. So even though the body was not around at first, the child was just as dead, and the dog was right.
If these dogs did not have abilities, they would not be used. The police would not waste time with them.
If these dogs did not have abilities, they would not be used. The police would not waste time with them.
april4sky
It is not who is right, but what is right, that is
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ThoughtFox it doesn't mean a body was there either.
And in the Danielle Van Dam case DNA evidence was found in the vehicle.
Nobody said these dogs don't have abilities...they are very clever, but they are not perfect.....especially if there is no body.
ThoughtFox
Expecting the Unexpected
The DNA in the vehicle was one strand of hair and maybe one drop of blood. Supposedly they have more than that in the McCann's vehicle that was rented after the child disappeared.
There is no body yet.
These dogs are known as cadaver dogs. They are an important component of a crime investigation that leads to a homicide. It is difficult to prosecute a case without a body, but sometimes the bodies of victims are disposed of carefully, so as not to be found easily. Cadaver dogs serve as a means of solving the crime and thereby giving the victim a voice and the family some justice. Cadaver dogs do not just work in crime investigations, they are also prominent in the detection of human remains when there is a natural or man-made disaster. Cadaver dogs were used in both the World Trade Centre disaster as well as the devastation caused by Hurricane Katrina down in Louisiana.
You know April , I believe that these dogs are trained to absolute perfection to do their job and therefore shouldn't be underestimated.
You know April , I believe that these dogs are trained to absolute perfection to do their job and therefore shouldn't be underestimated.
Texana
Overreaching
With all due respect, the absence of a body or being easily able to locate one is exactly why cadaver dogs are used.
They indicate where human remains are or have been present.
They indicate where human remains are or have been present.
april4sky
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Great dogs. Highly trained maybe...but not perfect. I'm well aware of how good they are, but they don't always get it right, especially if there is NO body.
It's not just me saying this. But experts who know the facts.
http://www.slate.com/id/2174177
ThoughtFox
Expecting the Unexpected
Finding the body is not the only aim, April.
Finding the truth is also important.
The McCanns - not perfect either. They are still under suspician. They are still under investigation. Their child is nowhere to be found. The dogs are only part of the evidence against them. Not perfect, and it's not just me saying that, but LE in two countries who are investigating them.
Finding the truth is also important.
The McCanns - not perfect either. They are still under suspician. They are still under investigation. Their child is nowhere to be found. The dogs are only part of the evidence against them. Not perfect, and it's not just me saying that, but LE in two countries who are investigating them.
april4sky
It is not who is right, but what is right, that is
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ThoughtFox I think we all agree that finding Madeleine is the aim.....hopefully alive. Failing that the real truth as to what happened. And I never said the McCanns were perfect.
As for the dogs. We still disagree that they provided "evidence" of a dead Madeleine. Haven't the PJ said they don't know if she's dead....If true there's a clue there as to the lack of 'evidence' from the cadavers.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23024607-5013933,00.html
I found these interesting articles from forum below on
http://www.the3arguidos.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4105&start=0
According to Correio Da Manha, the police case against the McCanns consisted of sniffer dogs and that traces of blood indicate the presence of the little girl's body behind a sofa and in the trunk of the car.
FSS information released on 7 September is not forgotten by Police or the public.
BBC despatched Jane Hill (BBC News 24 reporter) to Luz for live coverage of breaking news - outside the Police Station after the parents were interviewed and named 'arguidos' as follows:
"An early forensic report is alleged to have mentioned a certain blood spray .... Commensurate with a certain type of broken larynx ... some DNA samples found related to cerebral fluids indicates a broken neck or fractured skull." Also "Sousa himself told of this very find emist of spray that was found in the apartment." This piece of information was released only once that night.
Since the, several articles in DE report findings of spinal fluid (aka cerebral) blood on bedroom wall and curtain (reportedly scrubbed with cleaning fluid), plus syringe in bedside cabinet.
Pinpointed by cadavers following scent of death found on mother's clothing, bible, car keys and cuddle cat. Cadavers pinpointed corpse specimens in vehicle wheel well with a reported 100% DNA match to Madeleine's hairs & 88% bodily fluid match. More recently, blood found in vehicle matches Madeleine along with reports of towel fibres/blood in wheel well.
No-one has forgotten, especially the McCanns who fled Portugal when presented with the above FSS information at interview. The information broadcast on 7 September on BBC 6 o'clock new was a 'wake up' call to the public - £1.3 m had been taken under false pretences -there was no abduction - Madeleine died in her parents' apartment on or around 3 May.
The cost of the 'cover up' is being paid by Portuguese & British taxpayers. PJ's costs alone are close to £1.5 m Euros and the British Government, at taxpayers expense, is delaying Police procedures, specifically with Rogatory letters.
April, If there is any truth to these articles regarding the findings of blood spray, cerebral fluid & syringe etc ,just curious
to how you can explain their existance in the apartment. Something clearly was found and a botched cleanup was attempted.
I found these interesting articles from forum below on
http://www.the3arguidos.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4105&start=0
According to Correio Da Manha, the police case against the McCanns consisted of sniffer dogs and that traces of blood indicate the presence of the little girl's body behind a sofa and in the trunk of the car.
FSS information released on 7 September is not forgotten by Police or the public.
BBC despatched Jane Hill (BBC News 24 reporter) to Luz for live coverage of breaking news - outside the Police Station after the parents were interviewed and named 'arguidos' as follows:
"An early forensic report is alleged to have mentioned a certain blood spray .... Commensurate with a certain type of broken larynx ... some DNA samples found related to cerebral fluids indicates a broken neck or fractured skull." Also "Sousa himself told of this very find emist of spray that was found in the apartment." This piece of information was released only once that night.
Since the, several articles in DE report findings of spinal fluid (aka cerebral) blood on bedroom wall and curtain (reportedly scrubbed with cleaning fluid), plus syringe in bedside cabinet.
Pinpointed by cadavers following scent of death found on mother's clothing, bible, car keys and cuddle cat. Cadavers pinpointed corpse specimens in vehicle wheel well with a reported 100% DNA match to Madeleine's hairs & 88% bodily fluid match. More recently, blood found in vehicle matches Madeleine along with reports of towel fibres/blood in wheel well.
No-one has forgotten, especially the McCanns who fled Portugal when presented with the above FSS information at interview. The information broadcast on 7 September on BBC 6 o'clock new was a 'wake up' call to the public - £1.3 m had been taken under false pretences -there was no abduction - Madeleine died in her parents' apartment on or around 3 May.
The cost of the 'cover up' is being paid by Portuguese & British taxpayers. PJ's costs alone are close to £1.5 m Euros and the British Government, at taxpayers expense, is delaying Police procedures, specifically with Rogatory letters.
April, If there is any truth to these articles regarding the findings of blood spray, cerebral fluid & syringe etc ,just curious
to how you can explain their existance in the apartment. Something clearly was found and a botched cleanup was attempted.
april4sky
It is not who is right, but what is right, that is
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Prickle one article is dated the 7th Sept, the other early Jan. The accusations in the early one were at the height of all the smears, leaks, and damaging rumours put out there, and admitted to, by the PJ....Amongst others. It's no surprise that the articles are from the ever famous, and frequently unreliable "sources" too.April, If there is any truth to these articles regarding the findings of blood spray, cerebral fluid & syringe etc ,just curious
Don't you think that if there had been any truth to them the PJ would have enough DNA from Madeleine's "body" to charge the McCanns?
ThoughtFox
Expecting the Unexpected
I'm as impatient as anyone, but I realize that DNA isn't going anywhere.
Those tales of the rental car came from somewhere, and the McCanns left Portugal in a hurry for a reason.It just takes time to make a case. Thanks for reminding us, colomom! :blowkiss:
april4sky
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Oh I have plenty of Patience colomom.......Just want the truth.
scandi
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HI Everyone, I read a post from Colomom which got me thinking so I started thinking on what could have happened. Lke I say, brainstorming is such a perfect way to see what fits and what doesn't in a case
I thought I'd share my post back to her as it might trigger some thoughts from you. Every thought is important IMO:
"Hi Colomom, Great to see you too! It got very slow all of a sudden, as out Brits are all sawing logs's right now I think. We're relatively close, well a half a continent away ;D but it seems not far to me.
That is a most interesting theory. i read Gerry did borrow Russell's car on the 3rd. The link didn't say what time of day. But if she had died around midnight on the 2nd, or very early on the 3rd, they could have kept her in the tennis bag in a closet until the next afternoon and then he driven her out to the barn.
Then Kate would have got the death scent on her jeans putting her in the bag, maybe tucking cuddlecat in Madeleine's arms till she was removed from the apt and then Kate could have sat down with a glass of sherry on the couch in a total state of shock over what had happened, reading that passage in the bible.
Now they also found the death scent on I believe Russells clothing and I thought in a neighboring apt although I can not find that link for the life of me. That means at some time Russell touched the body.
Now when that triangulated conversation took place was it Gerry out at the barn or Russell? I thought Gerry, but do you remember? I'm trying to think of when Russell would have touched her more than 2 hours after death.
Do you think she is still buried out at the barn? Heluva didn't happen till Aug 4th I believe which is 3 mos after death. I know they returned the Scenic on August 7th, so it is possible. But the triangulated call was around June 7th, right?
What one has to do is try and put themselves in the position of the players in the case.
The only 2 things that we have learned from links are the barn was the second place she was put and when the FSS came out the first part of September and said the bodily fluids in the Scenic were hers were not from transference which implies her body was in the auto.
Now what role did the 4 x 4 play? Was that Russell's car? The PJ still have it in their possession. Now I can see why you think the way you do, and they transported the body in the 4 x 4 to the barn and then could have redressed her and threw the clothes dripping with bodily fluid {they would have to be quite wet to leave enough fluid to run under a carpet in the boot of the scenic.
Those wet clothes or blankets would only have been that way during that stage of decomp which is up to 20+ days, and then the body starts drying out. I don't think they discarded anything in Heluva as nothing would still be wet.
If they went to the barn to redress her early June she could still have been in the wet stage if the conditions of where and how she had been kept were right. That means if she was wrapped in a blanket, enough fluid could have seeped into that blanket, and then with the removing of her from the bag, even more fluid would escape.
Not pretty, and am sorry about that. But we don't get anywhere unless we brainstorm, right? Krams"
I thought I'd share my post back to her as it might trigger some thoughts from you. Every thought is important IMO:
"Hi Colomom, Great to see you too! It got very slow all of a sudden, as out Brits are all sawing logs's right now I think. We're relatively close, well a half a continent away ;D but it seems not far to me.
That is a most interesting theory. i read Gerry did borrow Russell's car on the 3rd. The link didn't say what time of day. But if she had died around midnight on the 2nd, or very early on the 3rd, they could have kept her in the tennis bag in a closet until the next afternoon and then he driven her out to the barn.
Then Kate would have got the death scent on her jeans putting her in the bag, maybe tucking cuddlecat in Madeleine's arms till she was removed from the apt and then Kate could have sat down with a glass of sherry on the couch in a total state of shock over what had happened, reading that passage in the bible.
Now they also found the death scent on I believe Russells clothing and I thought in a neighboring apt although I can not find that link for the life of me. That means at some time Russell touched the body.
Now when that triangulated conversation took place was it Gerry out at the barn or Russell? I thought Gerry, but do you remember? I'm trying to think of when Russell would have touched her more than 2 hours after death.
Do you think she is still buried out at the barn? Heluva didn't happen till Aug 4th I believe which is 3 mos after death. I know they returned the Scenic on August 7th, so it is possible. But the triangulated call was around June 7th, right?
What one has to do is try and put themselves in the position of the players in the case.
The only 2 things that we have learned from links are the barn was the second place she was put and when the FSS came out the first part of September and said the bodily fluids in the Scenic were hers were not from transference which implies her body was in the auto.
Now what role did the 4 x 4 play? Was that Russell's car? The PJ still have it in their possession. Now I can see why you think the way you do, and they transported the body in the 4 x 4 to the barn and then could have redressed her and threw the clothes dripping with bodily fluid {they would have to be quite wet to leave enough fluid to run under a carpet in the boot of the scenic.
Those wet clothes or blankets would only have been that way during that stage of decomp which is up to 20+ days, and then the body starts drying out. I don't think they discarded anything in Heluva as nothing would still be wet.
If they went to the barn to redress her early June she could still have been in the wet stage if the conditions of where and how she had been kept were right. That means if she was wrapped in a blanket, enough fluid could have seeped into that blanket, and then with the removing of her from the bag, even more fluid would escape.
Not pretty, and am sorry about that. But we don't get anywhere unless we brainstorm, right? Krams"
txsvicki
Active Member
Has anyone ever heard of cerbrospinal fluid leaking out of the body before? I'm not sure I understand how it would get out of the spinal canal unless there was an open head wound maybe. Also, I still think Cuddlecat being left behind was not intentional. If the McCann's are guilty they could have forgotten to grab the toy.
The Portuguese police judicial systemOh I have plenty of Patience colomom.......Just want the truth.
April, all criminal cases in Portugal - and elsewhere in much of Europe - are governed by the law of judicial secrecy.
This means that once a criminal investigation is under way, police cannot reveal anything about that investigation, including any details about potential suspects. So as colomum says be patient...
all will be revealed eventually!scandi, great post ,very interesting theory.
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