Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 26

[orora]

That is correct, it had to do with the dna cloning aspects. There was a difference in the legal language that seemed to differentiate based on conception. Like I said it was an older document but it may still use the same language.

As far as -

I think if someone is willing to use an abducted child for shadowy human DNA experiments they would tend to be such a criminal sort that they wouldn't give a carp about what the bioethics regulations are and wouldn't make sure to abduct a test tube baby just to conform with some European bio ethics act.

And that may be the perceptional difficulty we have in finding the abductors. I don't know if you recall the human experimentation being done by the nazi's during wartime? Many a big pharma company was involved. The rest of the world was kept in the dark. Afterwards we forgive and forget.. The end justifies the means.

In this case if there was anything to it, the perps may have a legal basis to initiate the plan. The past history of the donor would have to be well known. The end reult of the coupling tested and demonstrable. The raising of the sample would have to be controlled from start to finish. This one had a peculiar bio marker that may have been useful for some testing purposes.

Big and bizarre will get around most any investigation or any investigator and seldom fails. From what I gather, the latest theory has an accidental death scenario followed by hiding of the evidence. The parents are again being implicated. If that is so, then are not these the same type people described- ?

I think if someone is willing to use an abducted child for shadowy human DNA experiments they would tend to be such a criminal sort

 

[Donjeta]

IDK... Nazi pharmaceuticals wouldn't have had to kidnap her to get her DNA if that was all they were after. They could have just swabbed her while the parents were at dinner.

 

[orora]

Hah, depends upon the nature of the experiment, the research or requiring the exact clone cells of an organ or? Maybe she is the main ingredient of some vaccine for some super secret flu strain that may save mankind someday? Hey maybe she is even still alive wandering the floors of some lab somewhere. Maybe momma raised her for that purpose and sold her for that?

Is that any less noble than killing her and then hiding her body so no one will know? Which seems more appropriate behaviour of these two doctors?

 

[Donjeta]

Getting a bit outlandish imo.The parents have been in the public eye for long enough that it is pretty much impossible for them to hide Madeleine somewhere and carry on experiments.

Children's DNA is not needed in the development of flu vaccines. It's the DNA of the virus that is important in the process.

 

[orora]

Not the parents doing it... And yes they are in the public eye. also implicated in the public eye for abandonement leading up to the abduction. Serves as a unproven motive. Distracts and keeps everyone from looking any deeper. It is an effective tactic.

Human dna is required for many a human cloning research project or experiment. I am not on the inside to know which may be viable here. There are multiple possibilitis.

 

[orora]

The parents have presented themselves as dupes for their daughters abduction. For professional people their behaviour was atrocious. That draws the attention. The motive of a accidental death and the parents covering up gets around suspicion of anything bigger involved. No Police force would help them get away with it,.. right. End of story..

Just wanted to show at least one alternate way of looking at the same things given the current stalemate. I have no personal information. Big power/ big business would never tell you if this was the case. They want you/need you to believe as you do.

You need something new. The last report has investigators going around and around in the same circles. Virtually the last chance before it is officially over.-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2096682/Tapas-Seven-interviewed-review-Madeleine-McCann-abduction.html#ixzz1zObtFRA4<br />[url

 

[brit1981]

I think you have misunderstood the bioethics regulatissn here. You cannot experiment on a child regardless of how they are conceived. people conceived via IVF, or naturally are considered equally human and have the exact same rights under all laws including the human rights act which is ratified in both Portugal and the UK. But it seems an odd way of looking at it - to say if it was legal to experiment on her it could explain the crime. If it was legal why would they cover it up?
One does not need an entire person for DNA purposes either and DNA experimentation and human experimentation are different things.

Also whether you agre with it or not, the leaving the children is not a motive for hiding a crime against Madeleine because a) it is legal, b) they told the police about it straight away so obviously were not trying to cover up the fact they left the children, and c) witness outside of the tapas 9 can also place Gerry and Kate outside of the flat for all but a few minutes each which did not give them time to hide the body and formulate a plan.
If Kte and Gerry were involved in giving the child away there were easier ways to do it then this, especially as they campaigned to have the case reviewed so did not want to let the case go cold. Why not wait three years and tell peopel she is at boarding school, move back to holland and do not tell peopel she was not with them (faking a death and funeral if need be). Doing everything they can to get this case noticed would be the worse thing to do if they wanted to get away with it. Your theory also relies on scientists etc keeping quiet (and keeping quiet in the face of a large reward)

 

[Donjeta]

It seems to me that whether it's legal to do experiments with a child's DNA (or whatever) is a totally moot point anyway if you have abducted said child taking your enterprise firmly in the realm of crime. You're already screwed if anybody finds out what you're doing so you will have to hide all the evidence of your experiments anyway and it makes no difference if the experiment itself is legal or not.

 

[orora]

Anyone who takes or murders a child has a motive. That motive began with something in someones past that makes them feel justified by something in someway to do it. Thare are many many variations but something is foundational to that end in everyone who does this sort of thing. Whether that is just as sense of entitlement or something akin to being above the law or not caring what the law for some reason is individual and intertwined with personal motive or individual reaction to accidental circumstance. An intellectual psychologically moralistic legal justification is as foundational to some for their actions as a few lines written in the rule book for the peasants code of conduct for others.

Doctors have their own code of conduct, code of ethics, training experience and personal individual justifications.

If the parents were involved, they did not perform the deed themselves imo. If the above mentioned scenario has any justification for it whatsoever, there are bigger fish and bigger motives and bigger obstructions involved than anyone will get past. If you attempted any of the possibilities quoted below, you would be caught. Its not that easy. What you see here is one of very few ways there are to get away with something like this for so long. The parents job is to behave exactly as they are knowing that the authorities will never persue that route. The former nazi scientists are almost being congratualted in some circles nowadays for their contributions to medical science that could not have come by another means but by what was illegal at the time. A mere 60 or so years back. Same big pharma as was in existence then are today's big pharma.

If Kte and Gerry were involved in giving the child away there were easier ways to do it then this, especially as they campaigned to have the case reviewed so did not want to let the case go cold. Why not wait three years and tell peopel she is at boarding school, move back to holland and do not tell peopel she was not with them (faking a death and funeral if need be). Doing everything they can to get this case noticed would be the worse thing to do if they wanted to get away with it. Your theory also relies on scientists etc keeping quiet (and keeping quiet in the face of a large reward)

I actually do not expect anyone to believe or jump on this bandwagon. It is but one of many that could easily be thrown in the conspiracy heap. It does test your mind though as to what you are personally aware of and how the same circumstance can be viewed in other ways. We are the same human race who have performed worse than this in the past. We don't like to think that we haven't "all" changed.

There are recent modern day child abductions that have involved Police obstruction in the past and demonstrably so. No motive was ever proven just the mechanics. In some instances the abductor was a Police agent. Demonstrable.. if anyone wishes to look.

With Madeleine, the parents seem to have been involved in the setup. Leaving children unattended and a door open. Thats all. Someone else did the rest. "Two separate parties whatever the motive, working together"

All jmo. Of course ... just food for thought..

 

[brit1981]

But the foundation for your theory was the incorrect idea that it would be legal to experiment on Madeleine because she was conceived via IVF, and then you say that the fact Kate worked two days a week as a locum general practioner, and gerry was a full time cardiologist at an ordinary hospital makes them more likely to hand over their child for this research.

The parents have not been found to be involved in the set up, the police have stated they believe now rom reviewing the evidence it was a stranger abduction. You do not seem to have any evidence that can back up your ideas.

Anf if you could get caught by moving back to continental Europe, and telling relatives she was at boarding school or had died, then I am fairly certain you could get caught staging an abduction, alerting the entire world, and campaigning successfully to get scotland yard to review the case.

 

[orora]

The parents have not been found to be involved in the set up,

Reading other articles and even the other threads on here has many stating things like the patio door was left open to the parents were leaving their children at home alone unattended in the room for consecutive evenings while they went out to dinner. It may not be true but that is what I am reading. Is there new evidence that says otherwise or a thread that has the latest exonerating the parents?

Are all the McCaan children IVF produced?
link to latest human experimentation laws rules regulations- wording is most important. A human embryo implanted in a chicken egg was debated as to whether to be termed a human embyo or not. Accepted as such in some countries. Other distictions are being made and modified all the time. example
goto Europe UK,
http://www.dnapolicy.org/policy.international.php?categories[]=2&countries[]=18&action=search&go=Go

ISASI R.M., KNOPPERS B.M.
17
possibility of nuclear transplants and the creation of new embryonic stem cell lines.&#8221; In
ethical terms, the council states, the distinction between conducting research on spare
embryos and on embryos created specifically for research is comparatively small.

Are all the McCaan children IVF?

 

[fabgod]

Just straying from the current topic for a moment,
I see our favourite ground scanner Mr Birch has now written to the Portuguese President asking for his intervention in getting Robert Murats rear driveway excavated.
Have to give him marks for persistence, he seems intent on either exposing himself as a fantasist or coming up with actual answers to this story.

Anyway, my point is, as we are kind of finding out right now in relation to searches and Police forces, as it stands, the UK police have searched a property 4 times looking for TIa Sharp and only on the last one, have they uncovered a body.
Now, I am not questioning the abilities of the dogs, the search teams etc, what I am saying is,
the body has possibly been missed on several searches, in a property no more than say, 20 feet wide and 30 feet long, where there was cause to believe the person being searched for had never left the property.

Lets transfer this train of thought to PdL and Casa Liliana in particular, no matter what some other posters here have previously stated, things can and do get missed, a single search is not guaranteed to locate whatever is being looked for.

On the one hand we have criticism from certain areas of the Portiuguese Police yet then the same critics, tend to defend the PJ searches as being thorough?
Currently, our UK police force and The Metropolitan Police in particular are making noises that the body of Tia Sharp may have been moved from one location to another, even though the same force has had officers in and out of that small property countless times in the past 7 days.

What is to say that similar events could not have occured in PdL?

A further point regarding The Metropolitan Police, currently we are being presented with the statement from certain areas, that the above mentioned force who is carrying out a review of the Madeleine McCann case, have cleared the parents and are saying it is a stranger abduction,
not really covering themselves in glory on a current "hot" case by reports, what is the hope for a five year old "cold" case?

 

[Cappuccino]

Reading other articles and even the other threads on here has many stating things like the patio door was left open to the parents were leaving their children at home alone unattended in the room for consecutive evenings while they went out to dinner. It may not be true but that is what I am reading. Is there new evidence that says otherwise or a thread that has the latest exonerating the parents?

Are all the McCaan children IVF produced?
link to latest human experimentation laws rules regulations- wording is most important. A human embryo implanted in a chicken egg was debated as to whether to be termed a human embyo or not. Accepted as such in some countries. Other distictions are being made and modified all the time. example
goto Europe UK,
http://www.dnapolicy.org/policy.international.php?categories[]=2&countries[]=18&action=search&go=Go



Are all the McCaan children IVF?

Orora - it is completely illegal to kidnap four year olds to experiment on, regardless of whether they are conceived by IVF. As to how the other children were conceived - that's nobody's business but their own. It doesn't have any relevance to Madeliene's disappearance.

 

[brit1981]

orora,
Yes the parents left the patio door closed, but unlocked, yes they made their own listening service checking on the sleeping children every half an hour. This is not an uncommon practice in the EU.

But what has IVF got to do with it. I do not know the laws in the US, but in the EU you cannot experiment on children just because they are born via IVF. I do not mean to be rude, but you do not seem to be familar with Uk and EU law - children born via IVF are not considered less human than people conceived naturally. The PJ said there was no evidence of their involvement, and scotland yard said it is a stranger abduction.

Fab,
There is talk the body of Tia was shifted to the loft space of different homes during searches. Thse houses are only fifty odd years old and the lofts were not properly seperated. Not that it makes it any different, one would think they would have checked anywhere that could be accessed.
But they cannot search Murat's home or his mother's without actual evidence. Birch claims his scan is evidence, but it is not up to him to interpret it and order the police about. Also Birch gave an exact location (inc. depth), which the police have searche dand dug up before.

 

[Donjeta]

Reading other articles and even the other threads on here has many stating things like the patio door was left open to the parents were leaving their children at home alone unattended in the room for consecutive evenings while they went out to dinner. It may not be true but that is what I am reading. Is there new evidence that says otherwise or a thread that has the latest exonerating the parents?

Are all the McCaan children IVF produced?
link to latest human experimentation laws rules regulations- wording is most important. A human embryo implanted in a chicken egg was debated as to whether to be termed a human embyo or not. Accepted as such in some countries. Other distictions are being made and modified all the time. example
goto Europe UK,
http://www.dnapolicy.org/policy.international.php?categories[]=2&countries[]=18&action=search&go=Go



Are all the McCaan children IVF?

I don't see what a human embryo implanted in a chicken egg has to do with IVF or the McCann children. Or any other children for that matter.

 

[fabgod]

orora,
Yes the parents left the patio door closed, but unlocked, yes they made their own listening service checking on the sleeping children every half an hour. This is not an uncommon practice in the EU.

But what has IVF got to do with it. I do not know the laws in the US, but in the EU you cannot experiment on children just because they are born via IVF. I do not mean to be rude, but you do not seem to be familar with Uk and EU law - children born via IVF are not considered less human than people conceived naturally. The PJ said there was no evidence of their involvement, and scotland yard said it is a stranger abduction.

Fab,
There is talk the body of Tia was shifted to the loft space of different homes during searches. Thse houses are only fifty odd years old and the lofts were not properly seperated. Not that it makes it any different, one would think they would have checked anywhere that could be accessed.
But they cannot search Murat's home or his mother's without actual evidence. Birch claims his scan is evidence, but it is not up to him to interpret it and order the police about. Also Birch gave an exact location (inc. depth), which the police have searche dand dug up before.

But then and I'm not saying he is right for one minute, You can't prove Birch's claims without digging the spot.
There would be no more evidence than a body, he says the ground is too hard to dig with a spade so it would have to be a heavier piece of equipment.

The point would be fair if the scans he has passed on, definitely didnt show what could be a body or whatever, but I would presume that they cannot do, therefore, I cannot understand the thought process that eliminates the interest in the site.

I can understand the fact that forces cannot keep going to a house or site and keep digging on anybodys hunch or tip, but this guy is putting his neck so far out on the line, that either he is absolutely off his pot or there could just be something in it.

We know from the Tia Sharpe case, locations can be missed, Brit, you are one of the most vociferous voices against the investigation Amaral conducted, yet the Uk police havent fared any better, unless,
you take the possibility on board that something could have either been missed or, was put there at a later date.

I know Birch says it went in the ground on the night, it may have happened that way, it may have gone in, been removed at some point and then replaced.

there is no saying she is dead, but as we have all argued, there is also no saying she isn't.
It could have been that an abductor did take her and buried her at some point, where better a place than Robert Murats garden where the searches had already taken place, a supposedly clever killer could think (rightly as far as events are going), that the site would never be re seached and even if it was, RM would be put firmly in the frame, maybe thats what they want to achieve, a ready made arguido, in a close enough location, bringing closure to an unwanted embarrasment of the Country?

I bet there wouldnt be much of an argument from the UK, it would be put firmly to bed, the evidence would have dissappeared long ago so it would be very hard to prove anything as to evidence.

It just my thoughts, I would have thought that most families and police forces would want to find the answer.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Just straying from the current topic for a moment,
I see our favourite ground scanner Mr Birch has now written to the Portuguese President asking for his intervention in getting Robert Murats rear driveway excavated.
Have to give him marks for persistence, he seems intent on either exposing himself as a fantasist or coming up with actual answers to this story.

Anyway, my point is, as we are kind of finding out right now in relation to searches and Police forces, as it stands, the UK police have searched a property 4 times looking for TIa Sharp and only on the last one, have they uncovered a body.
Now, I am not questioning the abilities of the dogs, the search teams etc, what I am saying is,
the body has possibly been missed on several searches, in a property no more than say, 20 feet wide and 30 feet long, where there was cause to believe the person being searched for had never left the property.

Lets transfer this train of thought to PdL and Casa Liliana in particular, no matter what some other posters here have previously stated, things can and do get missed, a single search is not guaranteed to locate whatever is being looked for.

On the one hand we have criticism from certain areas of the Portiuguese Police yet then the same critics, tend to defend the PJ searches as being thorough?
Currently, our UK police force and The Metropolitan Police in particular are making noises that the body of Tia Sharp may have been moved from one location to another, even though the same force has had officers in and out of that small property countless times in the past 7 days.

What is to say that similar events could not have occured in PdL?

A further point regarding The Metropolitan Police, currently we are being presented with the statement from certain areas, that the above mentioned force who is carrying out a review of the Madeleine McCann case, have cleared the parents and are saying it is a stranger abduction,
not really covering themselves in glory on a current "hot" case by reports, what is the hope for a five year old "cold" case?

Important to note here, that the UK police only discovered Tia's body when they brought in cadaver dogs. If they had brought them in earlier, without doubt they would have found her earlier.

In Madeleine's case they were eventually brought in too, only to alert in ONE SINGLE APARTMENT in the entire Ocean Club complex.

Yet some are dismissing the dogs as though they are junk science....

:banghead:

 

[orora]

I get the impression from reading though the posts on the various threads here that most have cemented an opinion one way or the other and this has all gone round and round several times over.

But I also see that the factual evidence to support either side is still being contested and attempts to persue various aspects are still ongoing. Some things may prove themselves out yet. That is encouraging except for some of the opposition you still find to fulfilling that.

I could answer to what I posted previously but there is really no point, as I also said before I do not have any expectations.

But if this or anything else contrary to common consensus here had any viability, the process you encounter here and most anywhere else would curtail ever getting to the crux of any unusual theory. I asked one question as an example. It was never answered for various negligible individual reasons .
Was Madeleine the only IVF child the McCaan's had? Does anyone actually know the answer?

 

[SapphireSteel]

I get the impression from reading though the posts on the various threads here that most have cemented an opinion one way or the other and this has all gone round and round several times over.

But I also see that the factual evidence to support either side is still being contested and attempts to persue various aspects are still ongoing. Some things may prove themselves out yet. That is encouraging except for some of the opposition you still find to fulfilling that.

I could answer to what I posted previously but there is really no point, as I also said before I do not have any expectations.

But if this or anything else contrary to common consensus here had any viability, the process you encounter here and most anywhere else would curtail ever getting to the crux of any unusual theory. I asked one question as an example. It was never answered for various negligible individual reasons .
Was Madeleine the only IVF child the McCaan's had? Does anyone actually know the answer?

All three were IVF.

 

[orora]

Thank you..