GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #5

[IDK]

I think the difference is that this was Ethan's gun. Not anyone else's gun, his. He had made references in social media and his journal when he got it and how pleased he was with it. It was supposed to be an early Christmas present for him.

MOO

I agree with you. It’s hard to explain, but I feel having his own gun caused him to feel empowered and validated in his maladaptive thought processes.
An example— I have always had my own car but recently lent it to my daughter for several months since I was working from home. I could use my husband’s car at any time, but I ended up feeling trapped. When you have access to your OWN item, it feels different, IME.

Also, the more I think about it, the more I do feel that JC’s lying about a friend’s suicide was completely evil on JC’s part. I can’t think of any innocent reason for her to do that…. All IMO.

Other than: Another possibility might be that JC detected something psychologically abnormal in her son from a young age (not saying he was, just she might have thought so) and instead of getting him help, she distanced herself.

Just some thoughts, completely my own opinion.

Edited to add example and change wording

 

[cottonweaver]

Psych Colin King. 2nd half of that Miller hearing video for EC

At 43 mins. The fall/collapse at the diner. CCTV clip - I had to play it on slow-mo.
Diner owner told LE that on contacting EC's parents, they told owner specifically not to call 911 for help.
Was never taken to Dr after this 'fall' to investigate why or to see if there was any concussion from it.

Drink, drugs, illness? A call for help/ attention? IDK ( bear in mind that, on the previous WS page, EC is texting his friend B saying that he's considering calling 911 so that he can get himself hospitalised )

Defense psych had EC do 15 approved tests, Taken one year after the arrest. Not allowed to do brain imaging.
He found high scores for ocd, anxiety, depression, average intelligence, no evidence of malingering or feigning symptoms. ( We heard that his best friend B also later hospitalised for OCD)
Dr King's psych opinion was : MDD with psychosis ( Major Depressive Disorder)

otoh, jail psych Dr Qadir's psych opinion of him post arrest: MDD, Adjustment disorder with anxiety ( Apparently he has been prescribed mood-stabilising drugs)

the infamous scenes inside jail where he's having to be restrained is at 1hr 07 at the link.
( EC's use of the jail tablet and his urges to visit ' Live Gore' website is also mentioned. Prior to murders, he was spending hours per day, every day, on that site. Dates for these searches not given. Month before? Year before?)

Notable was that OHS ratio of social worker support per student averaged at 1 staff member per 1000 students.
King also said that a compliant pupil who isn't disruptive, even though they are failing academically, is also less likely to be spotted for support/ mental health issues.

EC's google searches showed searches trying to self-diagnose what might be wrong- do I have ADHD? Do I have OCD? Depression? ( Remember that Jennifer claimed on direct that while there was evidence that she too had searched for 'Clinical Depression', she could not recall doing so but if she had, it would be for her husband after his mother died. IMO she was lying, she was googling it wrt her son)

School records and pupil witness also confirmed that previously that EC brought a live round and shell casings to class.
Various other class worksheets were found in the bag which included more doodles of guns.

 

[IDK]

Anyone remember the Diane Whipple case?

'Dog of death': The horrific killing of Diane Whipple

The killing of Diane Whipple remains one of the most emotional and indelible crimes in...

www.sfgate.com

Two lawyers caring for the dog…ignored repeated dangerous behaviors and Diane Whipple died an horrific death. They both went to prison.
in some ways, in my opinion, we can equate the idea of responsibility of care…though in one case its a dog, and in this other case, a child. Providing Ethan, a minor, with a gun while simultaneously ignoring his cries for help, coupled with years of neglect would be enough for me to vote guilty.
Here’s another guity verdict..he did not fix the brakes on the rental limo and people died.

Limo operator found guilty of manslaughter in 2018 Schoharie crash

A jury in the Schoharie limo trial has found the operator of the limousine company involved guilty of manslaughter.

www.wamc.org

This Mother had ample opportunity, IMO, to ‘fix the brakes’ on her mentally struggling son. But her answer was not seeking the help he needed. It was providing him access and training with a gun.

I remember the Diane Whipple case! I was personally glad they got prison time. IIRC, they tried to blame the victim for the attack. Shameful.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I feel that JC's action and inaction at the school meeting will prove to the jury after all is said and done that she's not the "super vigilant" mom that Smith claims her client to be.

JC who said and texted she was afraid that EC would do something stupid or dumb was shown EC's drawing at the 12 min school meeting and not only didn't JC tell the counselor and dean that they just bought him a gun and after being shown what her son wrote wasn't concerned that the very least he could turn the gun on himself.
She said she didn't even look at the drawing "closely"

Forensics entered at the trial show that JC contacted Kira about her horse lesson and asked if the vet came yet to see Billy 1.5 minutes after pulling out of the school parking lot.


EC's drawing depicted a gun and bullet with the lines, “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me. The world is dead. My life is useless.”

Jennifer Crumbley 'didn't look closely' at her son's drawings ...​

FOX 10 Phoenix
https://www.fox10phoenix.com › news › jennifer-crum...



4 days ago — The deputy explains that the gun box was found on the Crumbley parents' bed in the back bedroom of the home, where Jennifer had been sleeping.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I remember the Diane Whipple case! I was personally glad they got prison time. IIRC, they tried to blame the victim for the attack. Shameful.

Reminds me of Shannon Smith trying to blame Kira/horse barn and Amanda/co-worker for not calling CPS and/or the police after JC sent them screen shots of EC's drawing and both women were concerned about it.

 

[stmarysmead]

in the Whipple case, there was disagreement as to whether the dogs were leashed. In the limo case, the defendant argued that he relied on a local body shop and did some work himself. In each case, they ignored the potential danger to others in order to accommodate their own agendas.

To me, Ethan’s issues were ongoing and obvious. If your child claims to hear imaginary people in your empty home, this is not a child that needs to possess a gun or have shooting underwritten by his parents as a hobby. It’s the combination of her negligence with her apathy about providing him with the means he used to kill.

No matter the culture in one’s community, she was the parent. The one closest to the situation. Are the dogs safe to live in an apartment building? is this limo safe to rent out one more time? is my child mentally healthy and mature enough to have a gun hobby?

in all cases, IMO, there was/is egregious neglect to the disastrous and OBVIOUS potential for tragedy.

 

[Izzylizzy]

in the Whipple case, there was disagreement as to whether the dogs were leashed. In the limo case, the defendant argued that he relied on a local body shop and did some work himself. In each case, they ignored the potential danger to others in order to accommodate their own agendas.

To me, Ethan’s issues were ongoing and obvious. If your child claims to hear imaginary people in your empty home, this is not a child that needs to possess a gun or have shooting underwritten by his parents as a hobby. It’s the combination of her negligence with her apathy about providing him with the means he used to kill.

No matter the culture in one’s community, she was the parent. The one closest to the situation. Are the dogs safe to live in an apartment building? is this limo safe to rent out one more time? is my child mentally healthy and mature enough to have a gun hobby?

in all cases, IMO, there was/is egregious neglect to the disastrous and OBVIOUS potential for tragedy.

I'm still baffled about EC's bedroom and JC saying at trial that due to the condition he kept it in they gave him a second bedroom .
His BR was a disgusting unhealthy environment so instead of her and James making the effort to stay on top of him to clean it and keep it that way he got a pass and a new bedroom to turn into a sh**hole.
They even left his #1 bedroom as is.

It must have taken much too much effort for the parents to deal with his room along with living with EC when/if they ever took his phone or whatever other devices he used away from him.

Another thing:
Yesterday JC testified about the fight with EC the night before 11-30.
It was over his school assignments and she claimed they took the "shooting range" and his "gun" away from him.
Keast immediately asked about the "gun" .
She replied to Keast that she didn't say the gun just the shooting range.
She said "gun" as clear as day and surprisingly Keast didn't ask the court reporter to read back her statement, he let it go.
So before JC caught herself and Keast,who messed up IMO: by not pounding her on her gun claim it looks like EC was in possession of his gifted gun .
Had he not been in possession of his gun then by JC saying the no more shooting range that would have covered the fact that the gun need not be mentioned because he didn't have it, they did.

 

[stmarysmead]

A random thought, suppose while in prison, Ethan receives the medical help he so desperately needed to live a productive, normal life. He has potential, is stabilized…is the person he MIGHT have been.

But now, his life is ruined. IMO, that is another tragedy, this woman is responsible for.

 

[Boodles]

thanks for that link

' The panel of 12 jurors and five alternates includes 10 women and seven men, most of them parents...'

• Juror 7: White male doctor who said, “I’ve seen a lot of gun violence.” Owns multiple guns that he stores in a safe. He calls himself a “very strong proponent” of the Second Amendment and goes to shooting ranges about once a month, maybe every two months. He has lost two loved ones to suicide by a gun.

SBM. Juror #7 looks interesting. I’m surprised he was selected, but you never know…

 

[IAMWAN]

4 days ago — The deputy explains that the gun box was found on the Crumbley parents' bed in the back bedroom of the home, where Jennifer had been sleeping.

This isn’t as big of a deal to me as it was initially after I thought about it. James said he went home and looked for the gun and it was missing (and then he called 911) so I don’t think we know where HE found the case when he went home to look. I would guess maybe that will come out in his trial?

 

[Izzylizzy]

JC can check all the boxes.
2019

"They suffered early-childhood trauma and exposure to violence at a young age. They were angry or despondent over a recent event, resulting in feelings of suicidality. They studied other school shootings, notably Columbine, often online, and found inspiration. And they possessed the means to carry out an attack.'

What School Shooters Have in Common (Opinion)

Two researchers wanted to understand data-driven pathways for preventing school shootings. Here's what they found.

www.edweek.org

'Having the means to carry out an attack'​

In order to carry out a school shooting, students need access to firearms and ammunition. According to Petersen and Densley’s data, 80 percent of school shooters obtained their weapons from members of their own family, typically parents and grandparents'

Years of Research Finds That Most School Shooters Have 4 Things in Common

Years of research into school shootings has revealed these four shared traits of shooters. Addressing them could save countless lives.

www.rd.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

This isn’t as big of a deal to me as it was initially after I thought about it. James said he went home and looked for the gun and it was missing (and then he called 911) so I don’t think we know where HE found the case when he went home to look. I would guess maybe that will come out in his trial?

My question is no matter where the gun case was how did EC remove the gun?
He knew the combo or it wasn't locked or trigger locked?
iirc: at the time Michigan had no gun storage safety laws in place?

I think it was James who said that the gun was hidden in the bedroom armoire and ammo in a different place and JC saying that the key (?) to the case was in a beer stein?
Putting a gun in an armoire is not hiding the gun, no less from a teen who is looking for that gun

To me it appears that keeping the gun away from EC when not at the shooting range was a non-issue to both parents.

 

[MargieBee]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in earlier posts but this Crumbley case has some similarities to the Jeffrey Reinking case (Father of Travis Reinking - Waffle House Shooter) whereby the parent was held accountable for giving his son the gun used in the mass murder.

The summing up by Judge Doscotch was quite critical of the father's defence story as he didn't believe that Jeffrey didn't know about his son's MH problems. More importantly, the judge was disturbed by the father's repeated lack of accepting responsibility for his role in the chain of events that ultimately led to the mass shooting.

Jeffrey Reinking gets 18 months in prison for returning gun his son later used in 2018 mass shooting

Jeffrey Reinking of Morton was sentenced Friday to 18 months in state prison for illegally returning an AR-15 rifle to his son Travis, who was mentally ill.

www.wcbu.org

Father of Waffle House shooter sentenced to 18 months in prison for giving son rifle

Jeffrey Reinking has been sentenced to 18 months in the Department of Corrections in charges related to a 2018 shooting.

www.wkrn.com

 

[cottonweaver]

I feel that JC's action and inaction at the school meeting will prove to the jury after all is said and done that she's not the "super vigilant" mom that Smith claims her client to be.

JC who said and texted she was afraid that EC would do something stupid or dumb was shown EC's drawing at the 12 min school meeting and not only didn't JC tell the counselor and dean that they just bought him a gun and after being shown what her son wrote wasn't concerned that the very least he could turn the gun on himself.
She said she didn't even look at the drawing "closely"

Forensics entered at the trial show that JC contacted Kira about her horse lesson and asked if the vet came yet to see Billy 1.5 minutes after pulling out of the school parking lot.


EC's drawing depicted a gun and bullet with the lines, “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me. The world is dead. My life is useless.”

I hope that bit in bold was highlighted in the State's closing. The devil is in the detail in this case.

For contrast, I would've simultaneously replayed the short CCTV clip of her dismissively thrusting the papers at her husband, just a couple of minutes before she sends the text about the horse's vet. ( Papers = the list of therapists given by the school. CCTV was of them exiting the meeting through school corridor)

 

[Izzylizzy]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in earlier posts but this Crumbley case has some similarities to the Jeffrey Reinking case (Father of Travis Reinking - Waffle House Shooter) whereby the parent was held accountable for giving his son the gun used in the mass murder.

The summing up by Judge Doscotch was quite critical of the father's defence story as he didn't believe that Jeffrey didn't know about his son's MH problems. More importantly, the judge was disturbed by the father's repeated lack of accepting responsibility for his role in the chain of events that ultimately led to the mass shooting.

Jeffrey Reinking gets 18 months in prison for returning gun his son later used in 2018 mass shooting

Jeffrey Reinking of Morton was sentenced Friday to 18 months in state prison for illegally returning an AR-15 rifle to his son Travis, who was mentally ill.

www.wcbu.org

Father of Waffle House shooter sentenced to 18 months in prison for giving son rifle

Jeffrey Reinking has been sentenced to 18 months in the Department of Corrections in charges related to a 2018 shooting.

www.wkrn.com

Travis couldn't legally have firearms in Illinois but he could in Tennessee, where he was going to or did move to.
So it's Travis's father who "should have known" that his son had mental issues and shouldn't posses guns that got him convicted.

The good thing is that attention is FINALLY being paid to the parents who gave them or enabled their offspring to obtain firearms when they knew or had all the signs and should have known that their kid was mentally disturbed.



"The The elder Reinking, 59, held his son's firearms after his FOID card was revoked in the summer of 2017. But when his son decided to move to Tennessee later that year, his father gave the guns back."

 

[Izzylizzy]

I hope that bit in bold was highlighted in the State's closing. The devil is in the detail in this case.

For contrast, I would've simultaneously replayed the short CCTV clip of her dismissively thrusting the papers at her husband. ( Papers = the list of therapists given by the school. CCTV was of them exiting the meeting through school corridor)

The poor baby was inconvenienced and had to rush back to what really matters in her life.

I forgot which side said that the jury had been taking a lot of notes during the trial so hopefully that was noted and and will be brought into discussion as they're deliberating by one or more alert jurors who recognized the significance of it.

I missed her thrusting the papers at James, is it clip available?
How anyone could be surprised by that action is befuddling to me.

Sadly JC reminds me of LB, in more ways than one.

Lauren Boebert Throws Out Pin Honoring School Shooting ...

Newsweek
https://www.newsweek.com › ... › March for our lives



Jul 19, 2023 — ... pin commemorating a victim in last year's Uvalde school shooting in the trash. The pin featured green Converse shoes in honor of Maite ...

 

[cottonweaver]

My question is no matter where the gun case was how did EC remove the gun?
He knew the combo or it wasn't locked or trigger locked?
iirc: at the time Michigan had no gun storage safety laws in place?

snipped
As another poster mentioned, the case's number code was 0000
IIRC that 0000 was the factory setting or words to that effect. ( shop)
They didn't input a new code after purchase. ( Maybe for ease. They didn't want to have to remember another 4 digit code?)

Yes the gun safety storage re minors was only legislated after the slaying. ( I can't recall how many other states had already legislated. Maybe 25?)

 

[Izzylizzy]

snipped
As another poster mentioned, the case's number code was 0000
IIRC that 0000 was the factory setting or words to that effect. ( shop)
They didn't input a new code after purchase. ( Maybe for ease. They didn't want to have to remember another 4 digit code?)

Yes the gun safety storage re minors was only legislated after the slaying. ( I can't recall how many other states had already legislated. Maybe 25?)

So even if the gun was "supposedly" hidden from EC and he found it then with the factory setting still in place he had access to it.

Anyone ever try hiding something from you teen in your bedroom dresser or armoire?

LOL..LOL..LOL

 

[PenElaine]

Perhaps will be grounds for appeal for a new trial, on grounds of ineffective counsel.

I’m worried about that too. If I was JC (and so glad I’m not anything like TBH), I would use that for an appeal should she be convicted.

 

[DFWNF]

Shannon Smith has one reprehensible paper trail describing her thoughts on Nassar and his victims.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/01/us/nassar-lawyer-shannon-smith/index.html

What on earth? Legitimate medical treatments? ! That is whacked