New Tracey Documentary

Cherokee said:
Even if a person can get INTO the house via the window (with difficulty), it is nearly impossible to exit the house through that same window.
And besides, remember the chair blocking access to the train room -- see pages 313-314 in the NE book The Police Files -- an intruder couldn't have left via the basement window. Even that idiot Smit couldn't make the chair fit with the intruder exiting through the basement window.

John offers that the intruders: are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left.

How? Telekinesis? Or maybe it was the Wonder Spider... lol.

Great posts, Cherokee. :)
 
I think John broke the basement window during the staging to try to bolster the intruder theory but soon realized that LE probably wouldn't buy the window story, so he claimed to have broken the window at some time in the distant past when he'd locked himself out of the house and had to gain entrance through the basement window. LHP sure didn't remember the broken window, and it seems odd that if John had broken it when he said he'd locked himself out, cold drafts weren't noticed in the house and mice and other critters weren't everywhere, prompting him or Patsy to replace the glass, at least by December.

imo
 
I find it interesting, yet perplexing, that John went into such detail about removing his clothes to get through the window. Why do you think he was so specific? Did it behoove him in any way to say all that? In so many areas of questioning, the Rs answered with vague references, or either they didn't remember....Just wondering why you think that John wanted to describe this particular scene so well....

IMO
 
I think many of us have wondered the same thing, Nehemiah. Maybe John anticipated being asked why he wasn't concerned about possibly ruining his clothing climbing through the window, or maybe he thought that the more details he included in his window story, the more believable it would be.

imo
 
Cherokee said:
What suspect? Who are you talking about?

Patsy is the ONLY suspect whose handwriting and linguistics match the ransom note.

Spelling? What similar spelling? Patsy purposely misspelled certain words early in the ransom note to try to disguise authorship and suggest a "foreign" terrorist who didn't know how to spell English. She forgot this ploy as the note rambled on.














He couldn't have written the ransom note or formed the garrotte, or done all the staging like tearing the duct tape, with regular cold weather gloves on ... they are too bulky.





Transference might explain Patsy's red fibers if they had been found ON the garrote knot, but it does not explain why they were found entwined IN the knot.

You're right. "Not every piece of evidence is going to make perfect sense" when trying to exhonerate the Ramseys. In fact, NONE of the actual evidence makes sense if you believe the Ramseys are innocent because that's where the evidence leads ... to the Ramseys.




Why would a homeless intruder stage a crime scene? What possible motive could he have? He commits his crime and he's gone. But the Ramseys would have motive to cover-up something to protect someone in the family. The Ramseys had access, motive and opportunity.

The Ramseys covered up what really happened to JonBenet.


IMO

This response to your post is similar to the response you made a couple of weeks ago to one of BC's posts when you took him to task about repeating facts that you felt were demonstrably incorrect. Since I have posted info about this suspect before, either you scrolled by (which is your option) or ignored the info contained.

The suspect which is the best fit,IMO, is Gary Oliva, someone who picked up mail and could eat a free meal at the church around the corner from the Ramseys. He was homeless in the sense that he apparently depended on public assistance for a place to stay and meals.

A sample of his handwriting was on the internet at Webbsleuths. Its as similar to the note as Patsy's is. The letters a and u are exactly the same. If you look at letter combinations within words such as the d and g in the word judge, as well as others, you can find similar combinations in the note. The phrasing is not much different. And Oliva was noted by another poster to have misspelled words with double consonants 5 times in his writings that she had to look at. But no report of his handwriting being analyzed has come out.

A statement that fibers from a paper bag were found on JB's bed and in the bag used to carry the body away was noted at Webbsleuths. Assuming that this is actual evidence it points to an intruder. If you think its made up then it neither adds nor detracts.

If John and Lou Smit were able to get through the window an intruder could have also. He wore winter gloves and might have had to close the basement door after coming up. Other than than that, he could roam around, locate bedrooms, maybe look in John's desk, and as long as he closed drawers there wouldn't be any evidence. He could take JB from her bed downstairs and fashion the garotte and not leave any evidence. He probably left his coat on when taking JB downstairs to avoid scratches. BTW, the Ramseys stated that they found drawers in a room near JB's open. Evidence that WAS found includes dark blue fibers on the body, brown fibers at the scene and animal hair on JB's hands. None of these was sourced.

Regarding the uniqueness of the case, IMO, its more likely that the best suspect, Gary Oliva, was able to pull off the crime as seen, than it is for 1 of the Ramseys to have done it and 1 or more covered it up, staying together and keeping that secret for 7+ years. Judge Carnes, who was given all the info we have and maybe more, wrote 93 pages that the intruder was more likely.

Gary Oliva: served time for assaulting a 7 year old girl, was evaluated as being a paranoid schizophrenic, was described by a friend as being weird and getting more sinister prior to the crime, called his friend out of state 3 days after the murder and broke down sobbing, saying he had hurt a child, was seen at the 1 year memorial of her death, said that JB revealed herself to him at death, had a stun gun when searched by the police 18 mo. after the crime. Motive: He fantasized about being a bad guy in crime movies and wanted to have some fun with a little girl and decided he could also taunt the parents by writing a phony note and doing a little staging after he finished with JB. Its generally agreed that the note and what happened after JB's death was staging. Why? Because he had a strong impulse to do it and enjoyed it, and had little to lose.

If the BPD had followed up on the tip his friend gave them and thoroughly checked out Oliva, we would probably be looking at 2 main suspects, the Ramseys and Oliva.

On the window sill and grate, I see your point but I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on that. I wonder if the light was unscrewed, or was actually switched off,A/O was on when the Ramseys got home at 9:00?

The ransom note: To the untrained eye, it looks possible that either Patsy or Oliva could have written it. It has a phony quality about it due to length ( as identified by the FBI) and the figure $118,000, which is symbolic of something else besides a ransom demand.
--------If Patsy wrote it, her point of view was an outsider broke in to kidnap JB, someone from Access. She would think that the BPD would come and find the body by 8:00, and she would be stuck with questions of why her handwriting is similar. Then she might think that she needed to remove the body and put it say, behind the church for the plan to have a chance. All the other staging doesn't help a lot with the body there.
------------If Oliva wrote it what you see is what you get. He pretends to be an arch-criminal who has kidnapped JB. He makes lots of references to crime movies, acts boastful and threatening, and controlling. He was very careful with spelling, word usage, puncuation. But he overstepped his ability, IMO, in that 3 sentences don't make good sense. Patsy would tend not to make this mistake, either intentionally or naturally. IMO, the content of the note and the crime point to someone with major personality problems.
 
Olivia is schizophrenic. This crime is organized. It is hard for me to believe he could commit a crime that is organized; he would be an disorganized offender. The crime scene and schizophrenia just don't coincide.
 
vicktor said:
... Since I have posted info about this suspect before, either you scrolled by (which is your option) or ignored the info contained.

You're right, I must have scrolled on by if the post mentioned Gary Oliva as a match for the handwriting of the ransom note.

You said, "One suspect had very similar handwriting to the note. It was at least as good as Patsy's, to the untrained eye. Grammar and spelling were also similar."

I could not imagine who you were referencing since none of the experts, nor anyone in LE, has even proposed the idea of Gary Oliva being the author of the ransom note.


A sample of his handwriting was on the internet at Webbsleuths. Its as similar to the note as Patsy's is. The letters a and u are exactly the same. If you look at letter combinations within words such as the d and g in the word judge, as well as others, you can find similar combinations in the note.

A few similar letter combinations does not mean anything. It is the totality of the combinations, AND the line, word and letter spacing, rhythm, pressure, patiosity, etc. that makes a match.

Any of us could match a few letters with any of the rest of us. In fact, several of us might have similar styles of handwriting, but the differences are there, and to the trained eye they are obvious.

Please go to the following URL (if you have not done so already) and read through all the pages to see just one expert's analysis of Patsy's handwriting vs. the ransom note. It's not just a few letter combinations ... it's in the connecting strokes, and the line movement ... it's the sum of many parts.

http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf


The phrasing is not much different. And Oliva was noted by another poster to have misspelled words with double consonants 5 times in his writings that she had to look at. But no report of his handwriting being analyzed has come out.

It is obvious from the entire content of the ransom note that the misspellings on the first page were intentional, and made by a well educated female, and were not from the mind of a schizophrenic male.

It's also obvious that no one in LE (or in Keenan's fake almost two year investigation) considers Oliva's handwriting to be even a close match to the ransom note, or he would be paraded as a viable suspect.

I could find no sample of Oliva's handwriting at Webbsleuths. If you have a saved copy, please ask Tricia to post it.


A statement that fibers from a paper bag were found on JB's bed and in the bag used to carry the body away was noted at Webbsleuths. Assuming that this is actual evidence it points to an intruder. If you think its made up then it neither adds nor detracts.

You said, "Evidence of a finely shredded paper bag was found on JB's bed and elsewhere."

It does add or detract if it is made up. People, especially newbies, read here and see the word "evidence" and think it is gospel. That's why I asked for a source.


If John and Lou Smit were able to get through the window an intruder could have also.

My point was neither John nor Lou Smit was able to get through the window WITHOUT DISTURBING DEBRIS. It is physically impossible for a grown man to do so, especially considering the angle one has to take in coming down into the basement. Therefore, it was physically impossible for an intruder to get through the window WITHOUT DISTURBING DEBRIS.


He wore winter gloves and might have had to close the basement door after coming up. Other than than that, he could roam around, locate bedrooms, maybe look in John's desk, and as long as he closed drawers there wouldn't be any evidence. He could take JB from her bed downstairs and fashion the garotte and not leave any evidence. He probably left his coat on when taking JB downstairs to avoid scratches. BTW, the Ramseys stated that they found drawers in a room near JB's open.

Try thumbing through personal papers and check stubs looking for bonus amounts, leafing through a crime book, writing a three page ransom note, fashioning a "garrote," and redressing a body (among other things) while wearing winter gloves. You'll see it's impossible to do all the things you say the intruder did.


Evidence that WAS found includes dark blue fibers on the body, brown fibers at the scene and animal hair on JB's hands. None of these was sourced.

Some of them have been sourced, and the source was John Ramsey.


Regarding the uniqueness of the case, IMO, its more likely that the best suspect, Gary Oliva, was able to pull off the crime as seen, than it is for 1 of the Ramseys to have done it and 1 or more covered it up, staying together and keeping that secret for 7+ years. Judge Carnes, who was given all the info we have and maybe more, wrote 93 pages that the intruder was more likely.

Judge Carnes did NOT see all the info we have. Judge Carnes did not even see the official police files before writing her worthless opinion. Most of the posters on this board have seen more evidence than Judge Carnes ever saw. What a farce.

Vicktor, I appreciate you being able to debate the case without insult. I understand you do not wish to believe the Ramseys guilty of anything, and that you have gotten most of your information from Webbsleuths. But not everything you read is true.

The documented case evidence does not fit Gary Oliva. I wish it did. I don't want the Ramseys to be involved, but that's where the evidence leads. The Ramseys are lying about what happened to JonBenet, and they aren't lying to protect Gary Oliva.


IMO
 
Has Oliva's DNA been compared to the sample in the database, which the Ramsey team insists belongs to the killer? If Oliva's DNA hasn't been compared to the sample (which it apparently hasn't, or his name wouldn't still be thrown around by Ramsey supporters), there must be a reason. Could it be that the Ramseys know that doing so would eliminate yet another one of their phony "suspects"? Yeah, yeah, I know that DA Keenan is supposed to be the one calling the shots in the "investigation," but she isn't about to do anything to irk the Ramseys and Wood. Keenan promised Wood in a letter she'd share information about the "investigation" with him (what an outrage!) so, although some posters may disagree, I think Wood is pulling the strings.

Btw, does anyone here know how much longer the Rs and Wood can hold Boulder hostage?

imo
 
Thanks, Cherokee. So, then, why are the Ramsey supporters trying to implicate Oliva? Don't they believe the panties DNA belongs to the killer? Sounds to me as if they want to have their cake and eat it too.

imo
 
vicktor said:
There are many unsolved murder cases out there where someone broke it and killed an occupant, and didn't leave any evidence. There are unsolved cases of rape and murder where only semen evidence was left and the perp was never caught because the DNA wasn't on file or they could find no other connection. If the perp wore gloves and chose not to leave semen , what other evidence would there be?
I truly apperciate vicktors resolve in this and I have been given something to consider but to set the record straight on where I stand in this matter, I'm not 100% sure that the Ramseys committed this crime and if they did, why. But the point I'm trying to make is the way the whole thing went down. For instance, consider the VanDams. They were willing to bare their souls to the media or anyone else including giving the police anything and everything they asked for without a moments hesitation. They were willing to put their dirty laundry all over the world if thats what it took to get their daughter back or find out what happened to her. Now, compare that to the way the Ramseys handled THEIR bussiness. And then they wonder why people look at them with suspicious eyes. The Ramsey's actions on the day of their daughters death was enough to make me convict them with nothing further. The note said "dont even talk to a stray dog!" and they call everyone they know , first thing? And Patsy never mentions that the "kidnapper" said that in the note when she calls 911 ? Come on, you must love them very much to ignore all those things. But I do appreciate the point you are trying to make and I mean no dis-respect but it's just more than I can swallow at this point in time. And on the question of whether there is any record of whether any murderer has ever left a fake ransom not, I'm looking into the Lindberg case right now. I believe that one involved a fake ransom note but I'll get back to ya on that one.....SOLO
 
It isn't the fact that a ransom note was left that makes the JonBenet case smell to high heaven. It's that a ransom note was left along with the body.

imo
 
Cherokee said:
"Just this week, police said Oliva is not a suspect. Sources say his DNA doesn't match evidence at the scene."
Hahaha! The Ramseys and their supporters have really shot themselves in the foot haven't they! They wave the "DNA flag" like it's sooooooo important to the case--even going as far as spreading BS like "JonBenet got a piece of her attacker." But that darn ol' DNA garbage pops up to haunt them every time they find someone they want to frame for the crime. I love it!

Sum Yung Gai is INNOCENT!
 
Ivy said:
Thanks, Cherokee. So, then, why are the Ramsey supporters trying to implicate Oliva? Don't they believe the panties DNA belongs to the killer? Sounds to me as if they want to have their cake and eat it too.

imo

It appears that you have read the posts that lead up to here on this thread, but may not have read all the posts on the DNA thread.

When there are 2 sides of a situation such as the Ramsey case, opinions as to which side is right and has the correct info tend to fall on one side or the other. And when one side is presented with info that supports and makes the opposite side more believable, they often respond by making the other side wrong, which in turn appears to make them right. The solution to these cases often lies outside of this model.

Even though Oliva's DNA isn't a match, IMO he is still the best suspect. IOW, the DNA isn't connected to the crime. This obviously presents a problem to LE, because without DNA, or 2nd hand info, only a confession will solve the crime.
 
After testing OLiva's DNA, the BPD probably knew they could never build a case against him, 4 years after the fact, and so didn't do a handwriting test.

Yes I have read that URL on handwriting, and no, I don't have a link to where Oliva's handwriting was posted. Regarding that URL, what conclusion did that expert reach?***

Its interesting that you and some others on the forum feel that URL clearly demonstrates to you that Patsy wrote the note. Yet the 4 CDE's used by the BPD all said that they rated her as a low probability to have written it. Then there are the other 2?,3?, CDEs who stated unequivically that Patsy wrote it. That brings up a further question. If 2 or 3 state that she definitely wrote it and 4 state that she probably didn't, does that mean,
1. Although they're all experts, some are wrong while some are right?
2. Its inexact science, so its only an opinion?
3. Some know what they're doing but some don't?
4. Because of the variation, you can't trust any of them?

WE'll have to agree to disagree on the windowsill and whether an intruder would have left DNA during his activities that night.

*** Interesting footnote-

When the Zodiac was committing crimes in so. Ca. he sent a note to police that was written in cryptography, using letters and symbols. For 3 weeks the police and 'experts' tried to decode it, without success. The note was then published in a newspaper. In a weekend 2 schoolteachers were able to decode it to reveal the meaning.

























IMO[/QUOTE]
 
vicktor said:
Yet the 4 CDE's used by the BPD all said that they rated her as a low probability to have written it.
Say what? Sources/exact quotes please?
 
victor said:
It appears that you have read the posts that lead up to here on this thread, but may not have read all the posts on the DNA thread.
What DNA thread? What's the title?

imo
 
vicktor said:
After testing OLiva's DNA, the BPD probably knew they could never build a case against him, 4 years after the fact, and so didn't do a handwriting test.

You don't know whether they did a handwriting test on Oliva or not. If he was such a great suspect, I'm sure they did, or Team Ramsey would have come down hard on LE, and we'd STILL be hearing about it.

Yes I have read that URL on handwriting, and no, I don't have a link to where Oliva's handwriting was posted. Regarding that URL, what conclusion did that expert reach?***

If you've read the entire URL, then you would know the expert reached the conclusion that Patsy wrote the ransom note.

There is no link to Oliva's handwriting posted on the internet. It's gone. Kaput. Taken off the web.

Its interesting that you and some others on the forum feel that URL clearly demonstrates to you that Patsy wrote the note.

That URL is NOT why I "feel" Patsy wrote the note. (I don't "feel" Patsy wrote the note, I KNOW she wrote it.) The analysis displayed at that URL merely confirms what I already knew from my own analysis done years ago.

Yet the 4 CDE's used by the BPD all said that they rated her as a low probability to have written it.

Horse hockey!

THEY DID NOT RATE HER AS A LOW PROBABILITY TO HAVE WRITTEN IT!!!!

You people are determined to drive me insane by posting this nonsense. So please, I beg you ...

post it to yourselves, go out and dance with it, make up birthday cards with it and send to each other, but PLEASE ... DO NOT POST IT TO ME!

I know better. I have read the reports. I have analyzed the depositions. I know the credentials of the experts. I have read what they said, and what they didn't say.

AND THEY DID NOT SAY PATSY HAD A LOW PROBABILITY OF WRITING THE RANSOM NOTE.

*** Interesting footnote-
When the Zodiac was committing crimes in so. Ca. he sent a note to police that was written in cryptography, using letters and symbols. For 3 weeks the police and 'experts' tried to decode it, without success. The note was then published in a newspaper. In a weekend 2 schoolteachers were able to decode it to reveal the meaning.

And I am a former teacher ... so NOW am I an expert on the ransom note?


IMO
 

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