NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

[bluesneakers]

Exactly. And god knows some of us were here well before Renner and would have kept her name alive without sinking to any of the lows you’ve mentioned. Plus, now anytime someone wants to do any kind of media push, they have to reinterview the guy and pretend his ideas have any merit.

James Renner and the tandem driver are basically Robert Graysmith and Arthur Leigh Allen all over again, without the added benefit that Graysmith is in his late 70s and won’t be around to muddy up the waters much longer. Renner’s much younger and, if this case stays unsolved, apt to stick around and do damage for years to come.

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The only way (IMO) a tandem driver makes sense is if she was travelling somewhere with the person driving. Like for a few days away, a ski trip, whatever. Or someone was following her but she didn't know it. She wouldn't need a tandem driver to deliver her to Canada, or a hotel or friend's house. Someone would follow her on a long drive, make sure she gets where she's going, and then turn around? It doesn't make sense. If this person cared so much about her that he or she wanted to make sure she arrived at her destination I think he or she would have spoken up by now.

I'm curious now about the party. Maybe someone was watching her too closely or heard her mention going somewhere. It would be a long way for a stalker to follow her but stalkers can surprise you.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

The only way (IMO) a tandem driver makes sense is if she was travelling somewhere with the person driving. Like for a few days away, a ski trip, whatever. Or someone was following her but she didn't know it. She wouldn't need a tandem driver to deliver her to Canada, or a hotel or friend's house. Someone would follow her on a long drive, make sure she gets where she's going, and then turn around? It doesn't make sense. If this person cared so much about her that he or she wanted to make sure she arrived at her destination I think he or she would have spoken up by now.

I'm curious now about the party. Maybe someone was watching her too closely or heard her mention going somewhere. It would be a long way for a stalker to follow her but stalkers can surprise you.

There are simply too many local POIs who, thanks to Renner and Smith’s fantasies, have never been properly vetted. We need to start there and go back to UMass only if absolutely necessary because everything - literally everything - points toward a lonely and preternaturally secretive young woman who didn’t tell anyone where she was going and didn’t want anyone to know.

Look at her last known communications: to Billy, she basically said “leave me be” and to her friends back home she sent an email making plans to go to a concert together. What does that tell us? That she’s way more invested in Liz and the Hanson crew than she was anyone at UMass. She was lonely and missed her friends - not the girls she hung out with at college due to mere proximity, but her REAL friends. In fact, I’ve seen nothing that tells me she had a lot of friends at school, nor was she really there long enough to make any connections meaningful enough that they’d bend over backwards to keep her secrets for a decade plus now.

The most logical explanation for no useful info coming from Kate and Sara is that they don’t have any. Kate said as much when Renner talked to her. (Remember: despite what he’ll tell you now, she DID talk to him at one point. She didn’t give him anything meaningful so he decided to drag her publicly and stalk her friends and family.) Kate and Sara were not Maura’s best friends. It’s as cut and dried as that. That’s why they don’t remember anything.

UMass is important insofar only that it’s where she effed up the worst. The stealing and the accident, combined with whatever that final confrontation with Fred entailed, sent her north, and it sent her there alone because that’s how she felt. Whatever happened there is the mystery. Everything else is tawdry speculation and prurient rumor.


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[bluesneakers]

There are simply too many local POIs who, thanks to Renner and Smith’s fantasies, have never been properly vetted. We need to start there and go back to UMass only if absolutely necessary because everything - literally everything - points toward a lonely and preternaturally secretive young woman who didn’t tell anyone where she was going and didn’t want anyone to know.

rsbm

I don't mean go back to UMASS to find out what was going on as much as if someone had followed her it could have started there. A creepy stalker could have become obsessed with her for no reason anyone knows and it could have gone unnoticed. But I think she was too far away when this happened and why would someone follow her for hours without doing something earlier? Do you know what I mean? Honestly, it was just an afterthought, and I don't know as much about this case or the various POIs as you do.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

rsbm

I don't mean go back to UMASS to find out what was going on as much as if someone had followed her it could have started there. A creepy stalker could have become obsessed with her for no reason anyone knows and it could have gone unnoticed. But I think she was too far away when this happened and why would someone follow her for hours without doing something earlier? Do you know what I mean? Honestly, it was just an afterthought, and I don't know as much about this case or the various POIs as you do.

Yeah, I got what you were saying. It’s possible, but kind of a long shot. Sorry if it felt like I was attacking you. I definitely wasn’t. I’m more keyed up over that stubborn Renner apologist than anything else, ha.


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[bluesneakers]

Yeah, I got what you were saying. It’s possible, but kind of a long shot. Sorry if it felt like I was attacking you. I definitely wasn’t. I’m more keyed up over that stubborn Renner apologist than anything else, ha.


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Gotchya.

 

[Ozoner]

There are simply too many local POIs who...have never been properly vetted.

Snipped for conciseness.

I agree; if Maura didn't wander off and die in the woods but was actually murdered, it was a crime of opportunity, most likely perpetrated by a local.

 

[missmargot]

I only discovered the Maura Murray case earlier this year, binge listened to the podcast and have been obsessed ever since. I've just caught up on the last episode of the Oxygen show, unfortunately only the audio via the podcast because I'm in the UK and the show isn't airing over here.

I have always had a really open mind on the case and have been able to talk myself in or out of almost of the theories. Now that I have finished the show Oxygen has ruled out a few of the theories for me, such as suicide and running into the woods.

The theory I have struggled with the most is the tandem driver theory. Given the poor state of Maura's car and the long distance from Amherst, I can't imagine that she couldn't have found a way to catch a ride with someone else if were remotely possible. I think she was travelling on her own and I think she was heading to the UMass cabin for some time out. I understand the cabin was accessed via a code and it wouldn't have been hard for her to have found that out. I also think that the state of her car is the reason that the journey took her so long.

Putting myself into her shoes as a lone female by the side of the road after the crash, I was thinking about who I would accept help from. I would be much more likely to get into a car if there were a female passenger alongside the male driver. If Maura did get into a car then it must have happened pretty fast for neither the Westmans nor Butch Atwood to have seen anything, so there can't have been a long conversation. A female in the car would likely have made her feel comfortable quickly and possibly accept a ride straight away, in my opinion.

Apologies if this has been speculated about before, I'm so late to these discussions it is hard to read them all.

 

[bluesneakers]

A female in the car is exactly the reason gave Colleen Stan about why she felt safe climbing into the van with the couple who then became her captors.

 

[missmargot]

That's interesting. There was also a female living in the A frame at the time, I believe.

 

[Ozoner]

A female in the car is exactly the reason gave Colleen Stan about why she felt safe climbing into the van with the couple who then became her captors.

It could be, but some women will get into a car with an unknown male. I once gave a ride home to a woman with a flat tire (and she had a small child with her). I had pulled over to see if she needed help changing her tire, but she didn't have a spare in the car, so she asked me to drive her to house, which was about 30 minutes away.

 

[bluesneakers]

It could be, but some women will get into a car with an unknown male. I once gave a ride home to a woman with a flat tire (and she had a small child with her). I had pulled over to see if she needed help changing her tire, but she didn't have a spare in the car, so she asked me to drive her to house, which was about 30 minutes away.

Not it could be - it's exactly what Colleen said about why she felt safe getting into the car.

"Stan stated that she was an experienced hitchhiker and had allowed two rides to go past before accepting the ride with Hooker. She reportedly "felt confident climbing into the blue van", because Hooker's wife, Janice, and their baby were in the car."

 

[armywife210]

Say what you will about Renner but who else has kept her name in the forefront like he has? And, so what if he changes his opinion of what happened? That's what intelligent people do when they gather new input and hear new ideas, right? Websleuths members do it ALL the time about any given mystery! I happen to like him and am glad he is still on a quest to find out what happened.

I'm not fond of him throwing around terms like "sociopath" without having a degree saying that he has the knowledge to do so....or even ever speaking to her. If there was nothing else, that in itself would make me seriously question anything he said. Then we have the *advertiser censored* shaming, then hanging every single mistake she ever made out for everybody to see. Then there are the rumors that he states as fact, and I'm not so sure those rumors were stated by anyone but Renner. Pool orgies? C'mon. It's ridiculous. And even if it WAS true, which I don't believe for a second, what business is it of his to put that in print? And, as if that's not enough, he found it okay to accuse her dad of molestation and incest? Good Lord, I would have his butt in court.
A nursing student goes missing, her computer has searches of effects of alcohol on an unborn child, and the logical jump is that she is pregnant? Not only that but after researching this she is going to get enough liquor to take her mind off things while she is fleeing this big monster of a boyfriend and sicko of a dad for the good of her child? OR....she had a paper to write. Well, we know which will sell better.
The track coach sounds like a scorned X to me, why are we taking what he says as gospel?
I don't blame Renner for changing his mind. That's what happens when you are investigating. However, there is also a measure of integrity that an author should have. My opinion is that he's seriously lacking in that dept.


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[Pettibon Junction]

I think if you publish a book, you ought to be criticized a heck of a lot more thoroughly than some anonymous rando on an internet board and if a certain "journalist's" ego is so fragile that he has to go around flagging posts that challenge him, perhaps he should find a new line of work.

 

[Malknox]

<modsnip> Well I just hope the case gets cracked open soon. Some stupid tip will hold the answers so thought they are all worth posting. The oxygen show was silly and Maggie drove me nuts. I do think tho that the show has brought the light back to Maura. So for that I am grateful. Xx

 

[Fukiyama]

If your post is removed, it's because you're violating TOS in some way. Contact a mod.

 

[snowleopard]

Okay, not sure if this is against terms, but has everyone heard the new stuff on the Renner blog? Can we talk about it? If substantially true, then it casts an whole new light on things.

 

[armywife210]

Okay, not sure if this is against terms, but has everyone heard the new stuff on the Renner blog? Can we talk about it? If substantially true, then it casts an whole new light on things.

The boy who cried wolf....good story.


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[Gene S.]

He seems to be amassing a bunch of evidence that a particular person is a very bad person. He then makes a giant leap to speculate about the actions of that person. For his speculation to be true he needs a tandem driver who appears at the exact right time and then disappears, he needs Maura to be hanging out for several days in the general area where she had her accident, and he needs that particular person to learn of Maura's location and slip away from Fred and others for a period of time without drawing any suspicion.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

He seems to be amassing a bunch of evidence that a particular person is a very bad person. He then makes a giant leap to speculate about the actions of that person. For his speculation to be true he needs a tandem driver who appears at the exact right time and then disappears, he needs Maura to be hanging out for several days in the general area where she had her accident, and he needs that particular person to learn of Maura's location and slip away from Fred and others for a period of time without drawing any suspicion.

This is his MO. Thanks for outlining it so I didn’t have to. The boy who cried wolf, indeed.


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[Caffeine]

IMO, this is even a further stretch than the idea that she went off to Canada and started a new life. By all accounts Bill was in Oklahoma at the time and we'd need pretty substantial evidence to prove otherwise.

It seems quite evident BR is not a great guy and treated many women poorly. However there still are tons of loose ends here if JR is trying to say that he is responsible directly for Maura's disappearance.

This is quite a long shot and while I think it's very likely BR may have caused Maura some emotional stress, I don't think he has anything to do with this.

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