NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 #15

[jaejae]

Oh, i completely agree with you that it most likely wasn't some known serial killer like the Connecticut River Valley Killer or whoever. If it was a stranger i think it was probably someone we've never heard of (unless it was Rick Forcier but i doubt it personally) who realized she was vulnerable and tried to or successfully sexually assaulted her then decided he couldn't keep her alive. I think if it was a stranger it was an opportunistic killer like Roy Whiting (the guy i mentioned who killed Sara Payne, he was a convicted pedo who was in his 40s and had never killed anyone and wasn't out looking for victims he just happened upon her under the perfect (for him obv) circumstances) not someone who was out there prowling for victims.

Anyway yeah that's fine having that the least likely at least we agree exposure is the most likely. For me it's: 01. exposure 02. killed by a stranger 03. suicide 04. killed by someone she knew 05. fled and is living a new life. Would love for #5 to be the case of course but sadly i don't believe she's alive.

Hi Nadal interesting thoughts about the case and the Sarah Payne case. You might be right but I still favour the Connecticut River Valley Killer who I believe stopped killing in 2010 and not the 1980s but as I say you may well be right with your theories and I may be wrong with mine. With the Roy Whiting opportunist killer and known paedophile that may be the answer. Cheers.

 

[PezCandy]

Sorry if this has been discussed a zillion times, but I’m assuming that LE took prints and DNA off the stuff that was found in Maura’s car, has anything ever came of it? Just to be clear I am NOT accusing anyone of anything, her father has been very active in her case but wasn’t he the last one to have seen her (night before, right?) maybe she said something to him during their conversation at the hotel the night she crashed his car and it just hasn’t dawned on him or put the pieces together yet. Sometimes the most crucial information is over looked. sorry again if this has all been discussed before, just pondering and speculating

 

[Nadal]

Hi Nadal interesting thoughts about the case and the Sarah Payne case. You might be right but I still favour the Connecticut River Valley Killer who I believe stopped killing in 2010 and not the 1980s but as I say you may well be right with your theories and I may be wrong with mine. With the Roy Whiting opportunist killer and known paedophile that may be the answer. Cheers.

I know JaeJae i've discussed Ralph with you more than anyone here haha. As you know i don't believe he was a serial killer nevermind the Connecticut River Valley Killer and i've laid out my reasons why. I think the CRVK stopped killing in the late 80s like it's usually assumed, even if he didn't the odds of him stumbling across Maura are astronomical.

 

[Nadal]

Sorry if this has been discussed a zillion times, but I’m assuming that LE took prints and DNA off the stuff that was found in Maura’s car, has anything ever came of it? Just to be clear I am NOT accusing anyone of anything, her father has been very active in her case but wasn’t he the last one to have seen her (night before, right?) maybe she said something to him during their conversation at the hotel the night she crashed his car and it just hasn’t dawned on him or put the pieces together yet. Sometimes the most crucial information is over looked. sorry again if this has all been discussed before, just pondering and speculating

If LE got any physical evidence from her car i imagine they are keeping it to themselves to protect a future trial and not to let anyone know they suspect them. I doubt they did though. Butch was the last person to see Maura, Fred was the last person she knew to see her though yeah. A lot of people think Fred knows something that could indicate what happened to her which he hasn't told the public. I think that's possible but i personally believe he would have told LE and even if he has suspicions (there's strong indications that initially at least Fred thought she had killed herself) i don't believe he knows for sure what happened.

 

[Rocky1]

If LE got any physical evidence from her car i imagine they are keeping it to themselves to protect a future trial and not to let anyone know they suspect them. I doubt they did though. Butch was the last person to see Maura, Fred was the last person she knew to see her though yeah. A lot of people think Fred knows something that could indicate what happened to her which he hasn't told the public. I think that's possible but i personally believe he would have told LE and even if he has suspicions (there's strong indications that initially at least Fred thought she had killed herself) i don't believe he knows for sure what happened.

Something to keep in mind. There was snow on the ground at the time off the accident. I would think that if she took off into the woods anywhere near the car, LE would have looked for tracks.

 

[PezCandy]

Speaking of Butch, I’ve seen a lot (usually on Reddit) of people accusing Butch of committing a crime against Maura. Especially after he moved. My thoughts are if he were to kill her (speculation) what would the point of calling the police and reporting her accident be? I read that the sniffer dogs lead to the driveway of this place. Maybe she was picked up by someone right there? It’s just such an odd case, every time I think I’m figuring stuff out I see some more stuff that literally makes me rethink everything in her case. Also, I can see her passing of exposure as a possibility, but I find it odd after so many years and searches they haven’t came up with any trace of her, clothes etc. I understand that critters can carry, eat, destroy a human body on top of the natural stages of decomp, but you would think there would be something out there, maybe even a shred of fabric of what she was wearing. Here is an example; when I was younger there were these thick woods a few acres back behind my friends house and we had a school project of taking pics of birds and berries in the wild, long story short we found a very tore up faded flannel and shredded jeans, unfortunately there were bones in them (spine and a few fingers). Long story short we were so scared we ran back to my friends house and his mom called the police and they came out right away. Apparently the man was a local older gentleman who was missing since the early/mid 80’s who committed suicide, no one was looking for him as most of his family had passed away and his cousins were under the impression that he moved away. What I am trying to get around to is that his clothing and larger bones were where he had passed for over 17 years. That’s including harsh winters and critters in the woods. So I’m wondering if the searchers didn’t search far enough? She was athletic so I think that if she were to wander in the woods she would probably get pretty far into them, or lost? I feel like if they searched more, when the weather is clear, they could find something. It’s not too far fetched right? All jmo and speculation

 

[Nadal]

Something to keep in mind. There was snow on the ground at the time off the accident. I would think that if she took off into the woods anywhere near the car, LE would have looked for tracks.

It continued to snow though so that could have covered the tracks up somewhat. Plus she could have ran down the road before entering the woods meaning LE weren't searching at the right area were the tracks would have been. But yeah there's some issues with the exposure theory i just don't think they are insurmountable and every theory has equal if not bigger issues IMO.

 

[Nadal]

Speaking of Butch, I’ve seen a lot (usually on Reddit) of people accusing Butch of committing a crime against Maura. Especially after he moved. My thoughts are if he were to kill her (speculation) what would the point of calling the police and reporting her accident be? I read that the sniffer dogs lead to the driveway of this place. Maybe she was picked up by someone right there? It’s just such an odd case, every time I think I’m figuring stuff out I see some more stuff that literally makes me rethink everything in her case. Also, I can see her passing of exposure as a possibility, but I find it odd after so many years and searches they haven’t came up with any trace of her, clothes etc. I understand that critters can carry, eat, destroy a human body on top of the natural stages of decomp, but you would think there would be something out there, maybe even a shred of fabric of what she was wearing. Here is an example; when I was younger there were these thick woods a few acres back behind my friends house and we had a school project of taking pics of birds and berries in the wild, long story short we found a very tore up faded flannel and shredded jeans, unfortunately there were bones in them (spine and a few fingers). Long story short we were so scared we ran back to my friends house and his mom called the police and they came out right away. Apparently the man was a local older gentleman who was missing since the early/mid 80’s who committed suicide, no one was looking for him as most of his family had passed away and his cousins were under the impression that he moved away. What I am trying to get around to is that his clothing and larger bones were where he had passed for over 17 years. That’s including harsh winters and critters in the woods. So I’m wondering if the searchers didn’t search far enough? She was athletic so I think that if she were to wander in the woods she would probably get pretty far into them, or lost? I feel like if they searched more, when the weather is clear, they could find something. It’s not too far fetched right? All jmo and speculation

I find the idea of Butch harming her absurd too. At least 3 other people looked at the crash site from their window including a couple who said they saw Butch there, plus his wife and her mother were in his house how and where could he have killed and disposed of her? As you said Butch told his wife to phone the police which is the last thing a murdered would do and also the woman in that couple (always forget their names) called LE before Butch's wife did. There was next to no opportunity for him to do so, being the last person to see her he was obviously looked into there's no way he could have pulled this off so cleanly as an elderly morbidly obese man.

Remember while police dogs are awesome they are also very fallible, even the best ones can be lead to answers both intentionally and unintentionally by microaggressions they respond to.

It's not odd at all that they haven't found any trace of her, it's extremely difficult to find someone in woods people have went unfound for decades in less dense woods despite multiple searches, hell it took 3 searches to find Chandra Levy in a park when her body was only slightly off a trail. Actually didn't someone crash a plane near the area Maura went missing and it took ages for them to find the plane? So i wouldn't let that inform your thoughts. Also if Maura succumbed to hypothermia then it's possible she hid herself in some type of crevice making it more difficult to find her, this has been known to happen to late stage hypothermia victims i guess it's a desperate attempt to get heat when their brain isn't functioning properly. There's also the very aggressive river that's right there. There's multiple ways her body could be hard to find out there and even if it wasn't bodies are missed in woods despite sitting out in the open all the time.

I think the best chance of finding her is searching those woods again yes, but there's not really a budget for it and LE wouldn't risk wasting that money since they've already checked once despite them being aware she could still be out there. In my mind the most likely scenario of Maura being found at this point is someone stumbling upon her remains or clothes out in those woods, not during an official search just like you and your friends did.

 

[jaejae]

Nadal. You have your opinion I have mine and good always to discuss it with you and here see your thoughts. I of course think I am right about Ralphman and there was only one person who knows more about him than I do

 

[Nadal]

Nadal. You have your opinion I have mine and good always to discuss it with you and here see your thoughts. I of course think I am right about Ralphman and there was only one person who knows more about him than I do

Not to rehash this but i don't think you know that much about him, neither of us do because there's so few facts about him out there without doing proper real life investigation since his crime was so insignificant. You have your theories which you believe are true so you count that as "knowing" something, but you don't, you've confirmed very few facts about him. You have no idea of any of his movements or if he has tattoo's or anything. If we're being honest the only facts you know are when he was born, when he died (thanks to me), his crimes (actually you might not as he could have been convicted of crimes before 2010 and you don't know because you haven't seen his criminal record), his immediate family with no specifics, and the fact he lived in Virginia most of his life. Outside of that there's nothing either of us can say are confirmed facts only personal theories.

Agreed though always enjoy discussing things with you mate

 

[Lamima]

I find the idea of Butch harming her absurd too. At least 3 other people looked at the crash site from their window including a couple who said they saw Butch there, plus his wife and her mother were in his house how and where could he have killed and disposed of her? As you said Butch told his wife to phone the police which is the last thing a murdered would do and also the woman in that couple (always forget their names) called LE before Butch's wife did. There was next to no opportunity for him to do so, being the last person to see her he was obviously looked into there's no way he could have pulled this off so cleanly as an elderly morbidly obese man.

Remember while police dogs are awesome they are also very fallible, even the best ones can be lead to answers both intentionally and unintentionally by microaggressions they respond to.

It's not odd at all that they haven't found any trace of her, it's extremely difficult to find someone in woods people have went unfound for decades in less dense woods despite multiple searches, hell it took 3 searches to find Chandra Levy in a park when her body was only slightly off a trail. Actually didn't someone crash a plane near the area Maura went missing and it took ages for them to find the plane? So i wouldn't let that inform your thoughts. Also if Maura succumbed to hypothermia then it's possible she hid herself in some type of crevice making it more difficult to find her, this has been known to happen to late stage hypothermia victims i guess it's a desperate attempt to get heat when their brain isn't functioning properly. There's also the very aggressive river that's right there. There's multiple ways her body could be hard to find out there and even if it wasn't bodies are missed in woods despite sitting out in the open all the time.

I think the best chance of finding her is searching those woods again yes, but there's not really a budget for it and LE wouldn't risk wasting that money since they've already checked once despite them being aware she could still be out there. In my mind the most likely scenario of Maura being found at this point is someone stumbling upon her remains or clothes out in those woods, not during an official search just like you and your friends did.

I think her remains are in those woods somewhere. I think whatever grid they searched, she is just outside of that. I think she ran there and hid somewhere knowing she'd die. I think that accident was the last straw for her and she likely was intoxicated to some degree where things seemed worse than they were to her. She ran and hid and cried and perished. JMO!

 

[jaejae]

Thanks for the post Nadal but I about him in my opinion than you will ever know in your lifetime and I have not posted it all on here because this board because it is about cases. So we will have big to differ and I enjoy your posts and theories and you may be right, But for you to say you know more about Jackson crimes and history in my opinion is pure fantasy so we will have to beg to differ. Thanks for your interest in him though. With Jackson's date of death my feeling is he died a few years before this year but I might be wrong of course but I hope I am not. Cheers.

 

[Nadal]

I think her remains are in those woods somewhere. I think whatever grid they searched, she is just outside of that. I think she ran there and hid somewhere knowing she'd die. I think that accident was the last straw for her and she likely was intoxicated to some degree where things seemed worse than they were to her. She ran and hid and cried and perished. JMO!

The way you worded this it sort of sounds like you think she killed herself. Not in a traditional determined/planned way but in a way that she intentionally endangered herself because she didn't care if she lived or died and the latter happened. Is that roughly what you believe or am i misinterpreting you? I think that's a solid theory if so. I actually personally think Maura was most likely considering suicide when she went out there but she hadn't decided whether she was going to or not and the purpose of her break was to come to a decision, i mostly come to that from her leaving the printed e-mail for Bill and Fred initially assuming she killed herself. Not to make this about me only to demonstrate precedent, i did something like that when i was in a bad place and thankfully decided against it.

I don't think she killed herself personally though, i think either exposure or foul play by a stranger just to clarify, i only think suicide was on her mind as a possibility even in a "shallow cuts" type of way.

 

[Nadal]

Thanks for the post Nadal but I about him in my opinion than you will ever know in your lifetime and I have not posted it all on here because this board because it is about cases. So we will have big to differ and I enjoy your posts and theories and you may be right, But for you to say you know more about Jackson crimes and history in my opinion is pure fantasy so we will have to beg to differ. Thanks for your interest in him though.

I didn't say anywhere i know more about him than you lol, calm down. I said i don't think you know much about him because you don't, you've told me you haven't confirmed pretty much anything about him. Your theories are based on things like you thinking a 57 year old Jackson looks like a sketch of a person who if Jackson, would've been 24 despite you not having seen pictures of Jackson before he was 57 and him having recently had a heart attack and aggressive chemo for cancer which would explain him looking so gaunt like the sketch you think looks like him. Then since you think that sketch must be Jackson you take descriptions of the suspect from the sketch like the limp then apply it to any case you hear about a limp going as far as to call it a "similar walk to Jackson" yet when confronted you admit you've never seen Jackson walk. That logic isn't even close to being sound and when you're asked for confirmed facts about Jackson you can't provide because you don't know them, despite you being so interested in him you somehow didn't find out he had died for 8 months after his death until i told you.

I have no personal interest in Jackson because after looking into him i don't think there's much to his story, i only looked into him because i kept seeing you raising awareness about him and decided to test what you were saying, IMO it didn't hold up to scrutiny. I thought the entire reason you kept mentioning him was so people would look into them for themselves?

Anyway, love you mate this isn't attacking you only your ideas i think by now i shouldn't have to clarify that but just in case, you're one of my favourite members and keep doing what you're doing.

 

[jaejae]

Thanks for your post Nadal and you are right and I am grateful for your input. You are also one of my favourite members and what you say above true. I missed that death thing on the assumption he had probably died a few years earlier and the misplaced belief the FBI play their cards close to their chests with regards to him and that sometimes the odd thing disappears but I have watched too many episodes of unsolved. I think you are right so I will give him a bit of a rest but keep reading the posts on here and other threads in the cases I am interested about including yours and others posts on this case and others. Cheers

 

[Rocky1]

It continued to snow though so that could have covered the tracks up somewhat. Plus she could have ran down the road before entering the woods meaning LE weren't searching at the right area were the tracks would have been. But yeah there's some issues with the exposure theory i just don't think they are insurmountable and every theory has equal if not bigger issues IMO.

According to the weather history, it didn't snow at all for the entire month after the crash. Not even a dusting. The next snowfall was March 2nd.
Of course nobody knows what happened, but ask yourself how long someone could walk along that road before another car came by? I know it was a rural road, but either a car came by and she hid in the woods, or a car came by and she got in. There were what 3 reports of motor vehicles that spotted her? Traffic couldn't have been that sparse. IMO if she did run in the woods, my guess it would only be because a car was coming, and she wanted to hide, and with that many cars on the road, she wouldn't have walked far. Otherwise, she would have stayed on the road. I doubt she had boots on. If she did run in the woods, my guess is she would not have gone far due to the snow cover... only enough to hide behind a tree or some other cover.
IMO, LE wouldn't have had to look very far on either side of the road for tracks if she did run into the woods, and they had lots of time before it snowed. I'm not sure when the pic of her car was taken, but it wasn't snowing then. You can see tracks all around it.
It's been ten years. I would think that either side of the road has been searched by now, along with hunters walking in and out of the woods.
My guess is she was walking along the road, someone stopped offering her a ride out of there in a nice warm car, and she took it, but again, it's just my guess.

West Lebanon, NH Weather History | Weather Underground

 

[Nadal]

Thanks for your post Nadal and you are right and I am grateful for your input. You are also one of my favourite members and what you say above true. I missed that death thing on the assumption he had probably died a few years earlier and the misplaced belief the FBI play their cards close to their chests with regards to him and that sometimes the odd thing disappears but I have watched too many episodes of unsolved. I think you are right so I will give him a bit of a rest but keep reading the posts on here and other threads in the cases I am interested about including yours and others posts on this case and others. Cheers

Hey, i wasn't suggesting you do anything post about Jackson all you want you may be completely correct about him. I was only giving my personal opinion on him and my opinion on your theories about him, if you reread those two posts i said IMO you know little about him for sure, i also know little about him for sure i haven't bothered confirming facts about him either so we're in the same position and neither of us can be authoritative about him.

Saying that i would enjoy discussing cases with you more if Ralph wasn't always the suspect. For instance i really enjoyed your posts about Jill Dando because while i don't personally think it was Serbians i find that theory more believable than some of your other theories and i think you backed yourself up well there.

Either way just keep posting about whatever you want, my posts aren't trying to deter you from posting only to present counter theories that hopefully you will consider like i think i've shown i have Jackson.

 

[Nadal]

According to the weather history, it didn't snow at all for the entire month after the crash. Not even a dusting. The next snowfall was March 2nd.
Of course nobody knows what happened, but ask yourself how long someone could walk along that road before another car came by? I know it was a rural road, but either a car came by and she hid in the woods, or a car came by and she got in. There were what 3 reports of motor vehicles that spotted her? Traffic couldn't have been that sparse. IMO if she did run in the woods, my guess it would only be because a car was coming, and she wanted to hide, and with that many cars on the road, she wouldn't have walked far. Otherwise, she would have stayed on the road. I doubt she had boots on. If she did run in the woods, my guess is she would not have gone far due to the snow cover... only enough to hide behind a tree or some other cover.
IMO, LE wouldn't have had to look very far on either side of the road for tracks if she did run into the woods, and they had lots of time before it snowed. I'm not sure when the pic of her car was taken, but it wasn't snowing then. You can see tracks all around it.
It's been ten years. I would think that either side of the road has been searched by now, along with hunters walking in and out of the woods.
My guess is she was walking along the road, someone stopped offering her a ride out of there in a nice warm car, and she took it, but again, it's just my guess.

West Lebanon, NH Weather History | Weather Underground

Thanks for the snow thing, must have misremembered.

Several cars came by after Butch settled in his bus to do paperwork according to him. That would be perfect timing for Maura to flag one down, there was accidents at that bend semi-regularly so no one bothered looking after they thought Butch was taking care of it.

We have no idea what Maura was like at that moment. She was probably drunk, we don't know what the crash had done to her whether it injured her or mentally shaked her up. There's several indications beforehand that she was not functioning well mentally and schizophrenia typically develops in your early 20s, she was 21. I'm not saying she had schizophrenia, only that there's a lot of reasons both factually and theoretically based on known facts to think she wasn't mentally altogether in that moment which makes her running into the woods more likely. It's also extremely easy to get disorienated in the woods even under the best circumstances so she wouldn't have had to have gone as deep into them as you'd imagine.

I think foul play by a stranger is very possible too, it's my #2. I just think exposure is by far the most likely because Maura's wouldn't be the case of exposure with the most arguments against it and it's the thing that makes the most sense.

 

[sony12]

I think if she died somewhere out in the woods she would have simply been going out there to hide and ended up getting lost. If you watch videos of hikers who got lost in the woods and ended up getting found they will almost always say how easily they got all turned around. You think you are going one way but you infact are going in the completely opposite direction.

 

[Rocky1]

I think if she died somewhere out in the woods she would have simply been going out there to hide and ended up getting lost. If you watch videos of hikers who got lost in the woods and ended up getting found they will almost always say how easily they got all turned around. You think you are going one way but you infact are going in the completely opposite direction.

I agree, but, I think in this case she wouldn't have to go far into the woods to hide. If she saw headlights coming, and then ran into the woods through snow, how far could she get before the car passed? 30 ft. tops? I don't see the need to continue walking deeper into the woods. Especially if she would have to walk through snow without boots on, if that was the case. I would think it would be hard to get lost when all she would have to do is follow her tracks in the snow back out of the woods. Alcohol changes everything, so who knows?
IMO, if she's in the woods, she's no more than 100 ft. in, and I would think as I mentioned in a previous post that LE must have combed the area by now along with volunteers. I'm sure many hunters have been in the woods over the ten year period as well.