NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

[rosemadderlake]

Jmoose - I have been thinking about your highlighting the importance of updating Sylvia's stats.

I think it comes down to --If Sylvia's brother has her medical and dental records and submits this information to Namus, it could increase the chances of identifying her if she was found and is still unidentified. -A definitely possibility.

I am amazed at this whole other section of Websleuths that works on matching UID's. Looking at her Namus profile, they would not know her teeth are perfect. They would not know it looking at the first page outlining her stats on her WS missing thread because this information is imbedded in a post (s) somewhere in thread #1.

So, I am glad to see your posts nudging for more information and highlighting why it is important.

 

[epiphany]

Families unaware Hart Island remains have been ID’d

BBM

Seventy-five people who were anonymously buried in a potter’s field up to 24 years ago have finally been identified — but their families still don’t know it.

Under a joint program launched 18 months ago, the city Medical Examiner’s Office and the NYPD have used enhanced fingerprint, DNA and dental technology to identify 81 people buried on Hart Island as far back as 1990.

http://nypost.com/2014/02/10/families-unaware-hart-island-remains-have-been-idd/

The Hart Island Project Website Link:

http://hartisland.net/

 

[Jmoose]

Families unaware Hart Island remains have been ID’d

BBM

Seventy-five people who were anonymously buried in a potter’s field up to 24 years ago have finally been identified — but their families still don’t know it.

Under a joint program launched 18 months ago, the city Medical Examiner’s Office and the NYPD have used enhanced fingerprint, DNA and dental technology to identify 81 people buried on Hart Island as far back as 1990.

http://nypost.com/2014/02/10/families-unaware-hart-island-remains-have-been-idd/

The Hart Island Project Website Link:

http://hartisland.net/

I just read this article in the Post yesterday-remarkable that families have not been notified, and worse that the people buried there were considered not important enough to worry about-thanks for posting the link to this article, Epiphany

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Families unaware Hart Island remains have been ID’d

BBM

Seventy-five people who were anonymously buried in a potter’s field up to 24 years ago have finally been identified — but their families still don’t know it.

Under a joint program launched 18 months ago, the city Medical Examiner’s Office and the NYPD have used enhanced fingerprint, DNA and dental technology to identify 81 people buried on Hart Island as far back as 1990.

http://nypost.com/2014/02/10/families-unaware-hart-island-remains-have-been-idd/

The Hart Island Project Website Link:

http://hartisland.net/

Hi, Epih -- could to see you are still at it

Really tragic story. Thanks for posting.

Jumping off: Since the burials took place from 1980-2011, are you all thinking that SL may have gotten here somehow? If so, what kinds of scenarios might land her there? Discovery of her unrecognizable body several years after her death via murder or suicide? (Or are you not suggesting that at all?)

Also, does anyone know the location of the Potters Fields that predate this one?

 

[Jmoose]

I do think it's possible (remotely possible) that Sylvia could have somehow ended up at Hart Island back in 1975. I think, if she died and wasn't discovered on Staten Island, where they were looking for her, that she may have gone unidentified, and then buried there. A description of Hart Island's cemetery included burials of not just indigent homeless people and stillborn babies, but also tourists, murder victims and suicides that were never identified, for various reasons-and we know that in 1975, there wasn't a mad rush on the part of LE to locate her. The problem now is that 1)if she is there, they never took a DNA sample before burial so they'd have to exhume her, and 2)since they constantly shift the bodies to make room for new ones, nobody'd have any idea where in the cemetery to look-and they aren't trying to find missing people who've been missing longer than 25 years, if I correctly comprehended what I read. In 1977, vandals set a fire and burned a bunch of the records, too.

Yes-if Sylvia died, I think she could be there, unidentified because of logistics and a little lazy police work.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I do think it's possible (remotely possible) that Sylvia could have somehow ended up at Hart Island back in 1975. I think, if she died and wasn't discovered on Staten Island, where they were looking for her, that she may have gone unidentified, and then buried there. A description of Hart Island's cemetery included burials of not just indigent homeless people and stillborn babies, but also tourists, murder victims and suicides that were never identified, for various reasons-and we know that in 1975, there wasn't a mad rush on the part of LE to locate her. The problem now is that 1)if she is there, they never took a DNA sample before burial so they'd have to exhume her, and 2)since they constantly shift the bodies to make room for new ones, nobody'd have any idea where in the cemetery to look-and they aren't trying to find missing people who've been missing longer than 25 years, if I correctly comprehended what I read. In 1977, vandals set a fire and burned a bunch of the records, too.

Yes-if Sylvia died, I think she could be there, unidentified because of logistics and a little lazy police work.

Oh ... I thought they only started burying people there in 1980. Did I read that wrong? Is that just who they have records for? I will look again -- sorry, I was thinking we had to account for the 5-year gap between when she went missing and when she would have been found/buried in 1980 (bc I don't think they'd keep an UID without burying them for very long).

ETA: Yes, I got those dates from the database. 1869. OT, but I have a strong feeling that my grandfather is there -- which is like being nowhere at all really, isn't it. From the website: "... the ultimate melting pot, a place where individual lives are blended beyond recognition." Very sad.

 

[Jmoose]

Oh ... I thought they only started burying people there in 1980. Did I read that wrong? Is that just who they have records for? I will look again -- sorry, I was thinking we had to account for the 5-year gap between when she went missing and when she would have been found/buried in 1980 (bc I don't think they'd keep an UID without burying them for very long).

ETA: Yes, I got those dates from the database. 1869. OT, but I have a strong feeling that my grandfather is there -- which is like being nowhere at all really, isn't it. From the website: "... the ultimate melting pot, a place where individual lives are blended beyond recognition." Very sad.

Wow-that struck me as very sad-I remember the story about your grandparents...my great grandparents, who were living in the Kleindeutschland section of the Lower East Side when they died in the flu epidemic in 1918, are probably buried there, too.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Wow-that struck me as very sad-I remember the story about your grandparents...my great grandparents, who were living in the Kleindeutschland section of the Lower East Side when they died in the flu epidemic in 1918, are probably buried there, too.

BBM: Probably so ... just the kind of thing it was used for, acc. to the history. Did you read it? I had no idea that these famous city parks were the potters fields that predate Hart Island (there were nine in all).

"A few of these early potters fields remain in the public domain as smaller parcels of land now known as Madison Square Park (1794), Washington Square Park (1797), Bryant Park and the Public Library (1823). Except for the last potter's field in Manhattan, located at the current Waldorf Astoria Hotel (1836), no records exist of the bodies being moved elsewhere."​

IOW, they are still technically cemeteries ...

Now that you mention it, my GGPs on my father's side could be too. We have not been able to trace them from their Brooklyn address in the very late 1800s, and during epidemics, the history says they moved bodies to Hart's Island directly from hospitals.

 

[gajonka]

Hoping that we will continue here...

Hi, J-Mo! Hi Everyone... nice to be around higher intelligence again (smile),

So, I heard that Dateline has issued a call for stories... their pipeline is non-existent, and they are looking for leads... looking for projects that range from the across the board variety ( I hope). Now, we know that Dateline is married to the "cold case, ice breaker, onto court, swift justice" type of tale... and this will be a difficult obstacle to overcome...

However, there have, well, I know 48 Hours Mystery has, in the past invested in events associated with uncertain, inconclusive epilogues. Point i: The Jen Servo case ( I think her name was Jen). She was the perky, motivated news beat reporter for a small texas station. She only accomplished about six months of work and her performance was stellar. Naturally, she dated some rogue, who, by all accounts must have been, possibly the person who ended her life. He walks free now, for some reason only the police are aware of. Another person of interest had been the male anchor who , I;m sire had his eyes set on her. There is surveillance video of them at sotre, and it show her walking ahead of him, and he grabs a cart aggressively, looking like a lunatic who is angry at himself, or something. Interesting how he moved out of there as fast as he could - accepting an anchor position in Tennessee or somewhere similar. The night of her disappearance, he dropped her off from that shopping trip, and either the boyfriend noticed this and flipped, or the anchor dropped her oof ion a different way.

Apologize for rambling but this is a case that ha never been solved, and serves as evidence that similar unsolved cases represent considerable projects fro both 48H and Dateline.

I think it would be great if we can send Dateline a summary of Sylvia's case... who knows... their need for a good story could click with this compelling case... and we could finally get justice for Sylvia.

What do you guys and gals think???

Your admirer, always.

The Gajonka

 

[gajonka]

Link to Thread 3, Post 2 for police report and newspaper article re Sylvia's engagement.

Link to Thread 2, Post 15 for Timeline.

Link to Case Map.

Links to Rose's posts listing links to Wagnerian articles:

Thread 3, Post 966 (5.8.73, Pp. 9 & 11, Marine Biology trip to Bermuda)


Thread 3, Post 967 (4.3.73, Pg. 7, photo of Wagner Marching Band, list of band personnel)


Thread 3, Post 992 (11.15.74, Pg. 1, death of Helen Surgan; 4.18.05, Pg.4, remembrance)


Thread 3, Post 999 (10.31.72, Pg. 1, Wagner Girls molested on campus; pg. 4, editorial on same)


Thread 3, Post 1001 (10.3.73, Pp. 1 & 2, Assault in Harbor View Hall)


Rose, I got as many of the Wagnerian articles as I could without getting overly confused If I missed any that you think are important (I am recalling one about one of SL's teachers dying?), can you post links to them?

Verified Insiders are:

• ASWDeerHunter
• MMQC

Link to Thread #1


Link to Thread #2


Link to Thread #3

(smile) I love you Going By My Gut - this is masterful... you are so VIP it is not even funny : - D

 

[gajonka]

Here are a couple more.


Thread 3: Pg. 38, Skeet, Post 933
-Letter about Biology trip 05.01.74.
http://library.wagner.edu/wagnerian/1974/wagnerian_05-01-74.pdf


Thread 3: Pg. 39, Rose, Post 973
“…consolidate the recent articles and links if that helps to have in one post.”

Wagnerian Newpaper Archives
http://wagnerian.omeka.net

Dr. Walter Kanzler, Asst. Prof. Biology, Wagnerian Feb. 27, 1973, pg. 8
http://wagnerian.omeka.net/items/show/2494

Dr. Walter Kanzler, Memorial Newsletter, ‘Limulus’ (Wagner’s Biology newsletter) September 2009
http://wagner.wpengine.netdna-cdn.co...al-Kanzler.pdf

"Vacation Bio Lab" Marine Biology trip to Bermuda, 1973, Wagnerian May 8, 1973 - pg. 9, cont'd pg. 11.
http://wagnerian.omeka.net/items/show/2500

You too, Rose!! TY!

 

[gajonka]

Staten Island Advance – sllive.com, September 10, 2013
38 years on, brother of Staten Islander who vanished seeks resolution

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2013/09/38_years_on_brother_of_staten.html

Wow - this is great! I am going to use this when communicating with potential allies. I think we should also include this in the Dateline Docket.

What do you guys think... I guess we can just pen a letter- and reference WS and the article... sort of leads them to the river where they can drink... We'll need a firestarter-like summary to catch their interest,,, I think they will love this case... Hopefully Keith Morrison will want revenge!

Ps: Some interesting comments on the article page,

 

[Jmoose]

Hi, J-Mo! Hi Everyone... nice to be around higher intelligence again (smile),

So, I heard that Dateline has issued a call for stories... their pipeline is non-existent, and they are looking for leads... looking for projects that range from the across the board variety ( I hope). Now, we know that Dateline is married to the "cold case, ice breaker, onto court, swift justice" type of tale... and this will be a difficult obstacle to overcome...

However, there have, well, I know 48 Hours Mystery has, in the past invested in events associated with uncertain, inconclusive epilogues. Point i: The Jen Servo case ( I think her name was Jen). She was the perky, motivated news beat reporter for a small texas station. She only accomplished about six months of work and her performance was stellar. Naturally, she dated some rogue, who, by all accounts must have been, possibly the person who ended her life. He walks free now, for some reason only the police are aware of. Another person of interest had been the male anchor who , I;m sire had his eyes set on her. There is surveillance video of them at sotre, and it show her walking ahead of him, and he grabs a cart aggressively, looking like a lunatic who is angry at himself, or something. Interesting how he moved out of there as fast as he could - accepting an anchor position in Tennessee or somewhere similar. The night of her disappearance, he dropped her off from that shopping trip, and either the boyfriend noticed this and flipped, or the anchor dropped her oof ion a different way.

Apologize for rambling but this is a case that ha never been solved, and serves as evidence that similar unsolved cases represent considerable projects fro both 48H and Dateline.

I think it would be great if we can send Dateline a summary of Sylvia's case... who knows... their need for a good story could click with this compelling case... and we could finally get justice for Sylvia.

What do you guys and gals think???

Your admirer, always.

The Gajonka

Hi G-man-I sent Daniel Slepian (he is the guy who works for Dateline) an email along these lines, maybe about a month ago, and have heard nothing. I will send a follow-up email, and see what happens. I am not sure what will catch his (and their) attention, but I do think it's worth a try.

Jmoose

 

[Jmoose]

This happened in the 1970s, and you have to take something into account. You needed no documentation to get a social security card, I just mailed in a form from the post office. No ID was needed. When I got my driver's license, I only need a school form, or a utility bill. Just to show I lived there. The requirements were different for each state though. In the 1980s, you could order anyone's birth certificate and use it to change your identity. It was the thing to shop for identities in the local graveyards.
Also, her throwing the glasses. I was on a fishing boat in Alaska and had an argument with an old man who thought he could grab me when he wanted. I didn't want to wake the skipper, and I didn't want to return to my berth where I could be cornered. I knew I was only 10 mile from Haines Ak and I took off without my glasses along a dirt road which meandered through the wilderness. Luckily I was picked up by probably the only car to travel that day. The next day the Skipper returned my glasses.
These kind of things happen.
Of course this is just my experience coloring my opinion of the case. I think she is alive.
:seeya:

Hi Glamourkitty-BBM-are you sure about this? I think you needed, even in those days, a birth certificate, to get a SSN. It's been 40+ years since I got a SSN, but I think I needed a birth certificate. Can anyone else here confirm? I saw something on tv from that era, which referenced the difficulty in obtaining a new identity with a Social Security Number. It's possible, I suppose, but not something that would have been done on a whim. I am not up to speed on the ways that people do this, but I think you'd have to find a person who was born around the same year you were, (cemetery shopping, as you said) and who had died, but who didn't already have a social security number-you'd first have to get a copy of their birth certificate, then use it to apply for a social security number. (In those days, parents didn't need to get a SSN for their children to include them as dependents on their tax return, so lots of people didn't have one until they prepared for their first job in their teenage years.) It would have to be a person who had died without a SSN, because otherwise it could attract the attention of the IRS and she wouldn't want that. That's a lot of time and work-doesn't mean she didn't do it, but it's maybe a little less likely than if she died, I think.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Hi, J-Mo! Hi Everyone... nice to be around higher intelligence again (smile),

So, I heard that Dateline has issued a call for stories... their pipeline is non-existent, and they are looking for leads... looking for projects that range from the across the board variety ( I hope). Now, we know that Dateline is married to the "cold case, ice breaker, onto court, swift justice" type of tale... and this will be a difficult obstacle to overcome...

However, there have, well, I know 48 Hours Mystery has, in the past invested in events associated with uncertain, inconclusive epilogues. Point i: The Jen Servo case ( I think her name was Jen). She was the perky, motivated news beat reporter for a small texas station. She only accomplished about six months of work and her performance was stellar. Naturally, she dated some rogue, who, by all accounts must have been, possibly the person who ended her life. He walks free now, for some reason only the police are aware of. Another person of interest had been the male anchor who , I;m sire had his eyes set on her. There is surveillance video of them at sotre, and it show her walking ahead of him, and he grabs a cart aggressively, looking like a lunatic who is angry at himself, or something. Interesting how he moved out of there as fast as he could - accepting an anchor position in Tennessee or somewhere similar. The night of her disappearance, he dropped her off from that shopping trip, and either the boyfriend noticed this and flipped, or the anchor dropped her oof ion a different way.

Apologize for rambling but this is a case that ha never been solved, and serves as evidence that similar unsolved cases represent considerable projects fro both 48H and Dateline.

I think it would be great if we can send Dateline a summary of Sylvia's case... who knows... their need for a good story could click with this compelling case... and we could finally get justice for Sylvia.

What do you guys and gals think???

Your admirer, always.

The Gajonka

I think this could be a great idea, but can we do this? Or does it have to come from the family?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Original post TBM:

Ps: Some interesting comments on the article page,

Yeah, who's "Akhenatron"?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Hi Glamourkitty-BBM-are you sure about this? I think you needed, even in those days, a birth certificate, to get a SSN. It's been 40+ years since I got a SSN, but I think I needed a birth certificate. Can anyone else here confirm? I saw something on tv from that era, which referenced the difficulty in obtaining a new identity with a Social Security Number. It's possible, I suppose, but not something that would have been done on a whim. I am not up to speed on the ways that people do this, but I think you'd have to find a person who was born around the same year you were, (cemetery shopping, as you said) and who had died, but who didn't already have a social security number-you'd first have to get a copy of their birth certificate, then use it to apply for a social security number. (In those days, parents didn't need to get a SSN for their children to include them as dependents on their tax return, so lots of people didn't have one until they prepared for their first job in their teenage years.) It would have to be a person who had died without a SSN, because otherwise it could attract the attention of the IRS and she wouldn't want that. That's a lot of time and work-doesn't mean she didn't do it, but it's maybe a little less likely than if she died, I think.

You got me thinking about the BBM, JMoose, and I think it might have been easier than that. I do not specifically remember when I got my SSN, so take that into account. But I did not even possess an offical copy of my birth certificate until about 10 years ago. All I had was a bad copy of a baptismal certificate. And I was not an immigrant, or a home birth. I was born in a Manhattan hospital!

My guess: The ID requirement for an SSN probably included "options." You may not remember them because you had an official birth certificate to work from? A couple of thoughts:

• A different era, a different attitude toward immigration. Many people came to the country w/o birth certificates, and even among those who had them, they likely could not be easily verified.
• I believe that at some point in time, municipal birth certificates became a requirement, but prior to that, churchs were considered official record bearers (my own case being a case in point).
• Paper records: Damage from floods, fires, left many people who did not already have official copies of their birth certificates SOL and the SSA had to account for that.
• In 1970, young Americans getting their birth certificates would have been born around 1950. But some older Americans would have been getting them for the first time too (I am thinking widows). The SSA probably had to account for the way records were kept all the way back to the early 1900s.

I was really surprised about 10 years ago -- some new law must have gone into effect? After years of being denied an official copy of my BC, the hospital I was born in suddenly began processing them. Thus, I was officially born when I was approaching 50

ETA: Just checked my memory against my records. My BC was issued in 2007 based on my baptismal certificate. It was not issued by the hospital, but by the NYC Dept. of Health, Office of Vital Records. However, I remember that when I tried to get one before then, the issue was that those records had not been provided by the hospital to vital records. My guess is that some new regulation made the hospitals pony up.

 

[Jmoose]

Thanks-wasn't sure whether I was "mis-remembering" or not. Now that you mention it, I think I recall that in those days, a baptismal certificate was an appropriate document to use for official stuff. So...Sylvia could have gotten a new identity in this way, but I wonder if she would have-I mean, there doesn't seem to be any planning involved, since she didn't take anything with her (not even her glasses)-she'd have to know that she could do this, and it's anyone's guess if she did know. There certainly are people who have done this-probably many people-this fascinates me!

 

[alliemay]

Wake up. No basis for a vanishing. Suspicious post...

Wow, wake up? I sometimes wonder why people that knew her do not come on here and make comments, this tunnel vision could be one reason.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Wow, wake up? I sometimes wonder why people that knew her do not come on here and make comments, this tunnel vision could be one reason.

Thank you for saying that, Skeet. I think the thing to do is report the post. Do you want to? Or should I?