OK - Donald 'Joe' Neff, 61, Poteau, 14 May 2009 - #1

[yosande]

There are quite a few cases like this, where the LE is tightlipped with the family, there is no physical evidence that can be linked to a suspect. It could be the LE are waiting for someone to start bragging of what they did. There are some cases where this happens. Unfortunately, not enough.

I hope they kept the clothes that your dad had on when he was found. There could be transfer fibers (evidence) there. If they moved his body, there is that, but not enough to know exactly who did it. There could be carpet fibers from the trunk if that is how they transported him to the pit.

No physical evidence, or dna found at the scene does not match anyone on their data base?

Does anyone know if LE has requested dna samples from anyone?

The article I read said LE had several persons of interest, dated May 14.

 

[Debbie Miller]

No physical evidence, or dna found at the scene does not match anyone on their data base?

Does anyone know if LE has requested dna samples from anyone?

The article I read said LE had several persons of interest, dated May 14.

The evidence that they retrieved was not disclosed to the public from what the one article said. If they did by chance find dna that did not belong to Mr. Neff , say if he scratched his killer and had skin of the killer under his nails then mostlikely this person doesn't have a criminal record.

They may still have persons of interest but nothing that is linking them to the crime.

If there was alot of blood at the bar, I would say that it is likely Mr. Neff was killed there. "Single gunshot to the head" here this is all LE reveals as injuries to his body.

 

[YellowDog]

I had asked early on if his hands were tied. If so, I believe it's very unlikely that he was killed in his bar.

His truck was found at the bar as was his hat. Bar robbers would have no real need to remove a bartender or owner's dead body from their bar.

It would seem more natural to think there was a fight at the bar that knocked Joe's hat to the ground, and he was subdued and his hands (or arms) were taped. He is then taken in the criminal's vehicle (red pick-up truck?) to Joe's home where they force him to help them open the safe. The contents are removed and they drive Joe to the strip mine area where he is murdered. And the rain washes away any potential tire tracks that might otherwise have been found.

This theory sounds very good to me. I, too, think he was killed at the strip pit.

 

[Wudge]

http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2009/05/23/obituaries/all_obituaries/obits05.txt

I ran across this earlier and I didn't know if it was already posted on here. This really tells a lot about my dad. The kind of person he was and what he loved. I still do not think dad ever came back to his house. We found no blood anywhere. Just my opinion. I think they might have exchanged info via cell phones. That way the driver could already be in route to the strip pit. But this is my opinion only, and it has never amounted to anything before now. Thank you all for your ideas. Please keep 'em comin'!!!!

Here's a pretty strong inferential clue. If your Father's hands or arms were, indeed, taped. Then I would like to know if LE found the roll of tape that was used to immobilize your Father.

If LE did not find the tape, I suspect it's likely that the persons or person's who abducted and murdered your Father brought the tape with them for the purpose of doing just that. And if that's true, then you can cancel out a fight or other mishap that simply got out of hand. For bringing the tape into the bar would certainly have been part of a thought out plan, and in this case it would give strong evidence to premeditated murder.

What do you know about the tape? Did anyone from LE ask you or your family or the bar's employees before if your Father kept such tape in the bar? Or do you know for a fact that he did keep such tape in the bar?

 

[sameole]

Hooray! I finally got on websleuths. I am the Jimmy that Wudge posted one of my comments from topix. I will post some of the ideas I have had about this case and Jodies. It is almost imposible for me not to link these two together. The interesting thing to me is, how did these folks sit and watch, get there timing down and Joe's comings and goings without anyone seeing them? My big question to missing my dad is, can you see the mountain tops from either the bar or his home?

 

[Kimster]

Hooray! I finally got on websleuths. I am the Jimmy that Wudge posted one of my comments from topix. I will post some of the ideas I have had about this case and Jodies. It is almost imposible for me not to link these two together. The interesting thing to me is, how did these folks sit and watch, get there timing down and Joe's comings and goings without anyone seeing them? My big question to missing my dad is, can you see the mountain tops from either the bar or his home?

I hope you can help us find out who killed Joe! This case breaks my heart.

 

[Nikki_2]

I might have this wrong or might not have read all of the info correctly, 2 things I can't move from is the time that the incident occured in the bar - from 11.20 - 11.40, I also don't believe that he was murdered there but badly wounded. And the safe with missing contents on Friday? I cannot put my finger on it but something with these 2 things do not seem right? I hope this makes sense

 

[Roselvr]

http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2009/05/23/obituaries/all_obituaries/obits05.txt

I ran across this earlier and I didn't know if it was already posted on here. This really tells a lot about my dad. The kind of person he was and what he loved. I still do not think dad ever came back to his house. We found no blood anywhere. Just my opinion. I think they might have exchanged info via cell phones. That way the driver could already be in route to the strip pit. But this is my opinion only, and it has never amounted to anything before now. Thank you all for your ideas. Please keep 'em comin'!!!!

Love the picture of you and your dad.

I've read that link; it's beautifully written.

I am goona answer the question about the directions to the bar. There is a road that leads from hwy 59 right beside the bar, around it and then goes up behind it, and will lead you to the Old Wister Hwy. Or you can pass the Old Wister Hwy and keep going about 1 more mile and go to the new hwy. If you hit the new hwy turn right then you just drive until you get to the bypass just a couple of minutes. Then hop on bypass going north and you could stay on it all the way to Pocola.

I think the location I have on the map is wrong because I'm not seeing a road behind where the bar is. I'll see if I can find a better map program.

I sure wish nancy grace could catch wind of this story. I have emailed her and everyone else with an email address but it has to go through their legal department. So i guess it may take a while. If anyone out there has any connections with anyone let me know and i will give them the info they need to do they story, along with all the phone numbers to the osbi etc. So nancy grace, or diane sawyer, john walsh, if anyone of you out there are reading this please i am so serious, i am begging for help. Thank you and god bless each and every one of you that have taken your time to read this to help out for my dad. I can't thank you enough.

I have a few facebook friend that might be good.

Hooray! I finally got on websleuths. I am the Jimmy that Wudge posted one of my comments from topix. I will post some of the ideas I have had about this case and Jodies. It is almost imposible for me not to link these two together. The interesting thing to me is, how did these folks sit and watch, get there timing down and Joe's comings and goings without anyone seeing them? My big question to missing my dad is, can you see the mountain tops from either the bar or his home?

Welcome Jimmy! Glad you were able to get on.
(NJ Poster)
I sent you a friend request btw.

 

[itsreenw]

MMD, I am so sorry for your loss. I do have a few questions...

Did your uncle that co-owned the bar go to the bar daily, too? Not much has been mentioned about his presence or participation in the bar's day to day operation. Did he give his opinion of what he thought may have happened? I'm also wondering if he could shed some light on the actual amount of money missing from your dad's safe, assuming profits from their jointly owned bar were kept in it. I still haven't found any articles explaining how they determined that thousands were missing from the safe.

Although your family was not close to the gf, has she at least contacted any of you to ask about developments in the case? Did she come to your dad's house at all while your family was staying there when you still just thought he was missing? Since we know he wouldn't have been answering his cell phone, seems she would have been looking high and low for him. Going by or waiting at his house, calling the home phone, etc... IF she believed he was only missing.

 

[itsreenw]

Sorry, a couple more things.

IIRC, the gf spent the previous night at your dad's, went to her other job that morning, then arrived at the bar shortly before noon. The customer is already inside looking around for Joe, then the gf shows up and they call 911? Has anyone heard the 911 call?

Who left the house first that morning? Was she the 'friend' that saw him at 7am?
I'm wondering if someone was already inside the bar, laying in wait for Joe to get there. Or maybe they'd been to the house to rob it while he was out and were inside robbing the bar when he showed up earlier than expected. I don't think they took him back home from the bar.

Were phone records from the house/bar checked? What about the gf's/dad's cell phones?

The gf seems elusive. Just showed up in a small town and nobody is sure where she came from? No kids? She was with Joe for a year or more but has no involvement with his daughters who were obviously very close to their dad. Friends and family and even the sheriff have been quoted in various articles about what a great man Joe was but there isn't one quote from her.

Was it ever determined what type of car or truck he bought a part for that morning?

 

[sameole]

I'll start from the beginning on here about my thoughts concerning Joe and Jodies murders.There are certain things about this case that are absolute. Somewhere on here someone stated that "Jodies ring was not removed." The article pertaining to Virginia Stice murder stated, "She was still wearing her wedding ring." She was found in the Choteau resevoir at the foot of the dam, but a church group just happened by the same day she was deposited there. Irrefutible similarity. She was on her way to work. She took a terrible beating, and was shot in the head, although I don't remember which side.
I don't know if Jody was found in water, but if she was, there you go. There seems to be a question about Jodies 'job', which tends for her case to have this similarity also.
Joe on the other hand, was robbed, but he was found in a "pond" according to a source on here. But, what does tie the two together is the distance from the mountain ranges. Even though Joe was taken somewhere else, both Jodie and Joe live under 10 miles from one. This number keeps popping up. The articles I have read stated that she was found about 8 miles from her home. Why these distances? Why not a hundred miles away? The reason to me is simple; hand-held radio range.
This makes even more sense if you consider the fact there are no witnesses, etc. Big mystery. Especially in such a small town. But, no one noticed a stranger casing his place? If you consider the possiblity of a lookout on both of these mountain ranges with radios and a decent high powered telescope, observing and planning, along with one or two folks on the ground, then it makes more sense to me. According to my map it seems entirely possible from 2500 miles up. That would also make the radio's work better. Also, radio's work better from north to south than east to west. These guys must be pros, right? It's a question that could easily be answerd from someone in that area. If you can see the mountain from the bar, or Joes or Jodies homes, then they can see you.

 

[wfgodot]

Mr. Neff was actually found in a strip pit, which is not unlike a pond. Lots of them in the eastern parts of Oklahoma and Kansas. (See page 3, # 56-59)

 

[Nikki_2]

Sorry, a couple more things.

IIRC, the gf spent the previous night at your dad's, went to her other job that morning, then arrived at the bar shortly before noon. The customer is already inside looking around for Joe, then the gf shows up and they call 911? Has anyone heard the 911 call?

Who left the house first that morning? Was she the 'friend' that saw him at 7am?
I'm wondering if someone was already inside the bar, laying in wait for Joe to get there. Or maybe they'd been to the house to rob it while he was out and were inside robbing the bar when he showed up earlier than expected. I don't think they took him back home from the bar.

Were phone records from the house/bar checked? What about the gf's/dad's cell phones?

The gf seems elusive. Just showed up in a small town and nobody is sure where she came from? No kids? She was with Joe for a year or more but has no involvement with his daughters who were obviously very close to their dad. Friends and family and even the sheriff have been quoted in various articles about what a great man Joe was but there isn't one quote from her.

Was it ever determined what type of car or truck he bought a part for that morning?

My thoughts are along that line, I was not sure if I could post about gf or not, in my previous post I mentioned that it all seems wrong the time in the bar and the safe robbery, I feel that it was someone who knew him pretty well, who would have had to be 100% sure of his movements and feel confident enougt to do what he/she/they did. I do not believe for a second that this was just random, and that someone just walked off the street to murder him and then to rob the safe. I read that the assault took place on Thursday and the robbery on Friday, is that not unusual?
I would like to be able to write my honest opinion but with respect towards the family and the fact that I perhaps would be crossing a line
-ITSCREENW - In my opinion your theory is excellent

 

[Nikki_2]

I'll start from the beginning on here about my thoughts concerning Joe and Jodies murders.There are certain things about this case that are absolute. Somewhere on here someone stated that "Jodies ring was not removed." The article pertaining to Virginia Stice murder stated, "She was still wearing her wedding ring." She was found in the Choteau resevoir at the foot of the dam, but a church group just happened by the same day she was deposited there. Irrefutible similarity. She was on her way to work. She took a terrible beating, and was shot in the head, although I don't remember which side.
I don't know if Jody was found in water, but if she was, there you go. There seems to be a question about Jodies 'job', which tends for her case to have this similarity also.
Joe on the other hand, was robbed, but he was found in a "pond" according to a source on here. But, what does tie the two together is the distance from the mountain ranges. Even though Joe was taken somewhere else, both Jodie and Joe live under 10 miles from one. This number keeps popping up. The articles I have read stated that she was found about 8 miles from her home. Why these distances? Why not a hundred miles away? The reason to me is simple; hand-held radio range.
This makes even more sense if you consider the fact there are no witnesses, etc. Big mystery. Especially in such a small town. But, no one noticed a stranger casing his place? If you consider the possiblity of a lookout on both of these mountain ranges with radios and a decent high powered telescope, observing and planning, along with one or two folks on the ground, then it makes more sense to me. According to my map it seems entirely possible from 2500 miles up. That would also make the radio's work better. Also, radio's work better from north to south than east to west. These guys must be pros, right? It's a question that could easily be answerd from someone in that area. If you can see the mountain from the bar, or Joes or Jodies homes, then they can see you.

In regards to the distance, I don't think that anyone would risk having a body in their vehicle for a long time, what if they got pulled up, etc..

 

[yosande]

Because the timeline is so tight, it seems to me that someone did know his routine and was waiting for him.

I also read there was signs of a scuffle, so he fought the perp.

Do you know if he would lock the door after entering when first arriving, and unlock the door for the early customer, and other staff, or just leave it unlocked upon arrival?

Since he fought for his life, it sure seems to me the perp's dna and blood would have also been found at the scene. Have LE ever said he was murdered there?

Do you know if any blood was found in his home, especially around the safe?

Did he drive to work, and where was his auto located?

How far, in minutes, and distance is his house from the bar?

Did his gf live with him at his house, if not, is her residence far from the bar or house, and in which direction?

Did he ever fish near or around where he was located?

Did he know and get along with the owner of the strip pit where he was located?

Thinking back to that time, can you think of anyone who wasn't seen for a week or two after May 14, or who looked as though they had been in a fight, but said they were in a car accident, or had some other excuse for the bruises, and scratches on face and hands?

Did anyone say they had gone on vacation, a camping trip, etc after May 14, and returned late May, or early June?


tia.

bumping my own post to say sorry for asking questions that were already answered in the thread, I just hadn't gotten to them yet.

Some questions haven't been answered yet though, so mmd, please read and post answers if possible.

Since you talked to your dad nearly every day, and we don't know him, it is my hope that by asking questions, we can open your mind to possiblities you haven't thought of yet.

Is it possible that your dad knew the woman who was killed around the same time, Jodie?
Or, because she is closer to your age, did you or your sister know her? tia

 

[yosande]

I'll start from the beginning on here about my thoughts concerning Joe and Jodies murders.There are certain things about this case that are absolute. Somewhere on here someone stated that "Jodies ring was not removed." The article pertaining to Virginia Stice murder stated, "She was still wearing her wedding ring." She was found in the Choteau resevoir at the foot of the dam, but a church group just happened by the same day she was deposited there. Irrefutible similarity. She was on her way to work. She took a terrible beating, and was shot in the head, although I don't remember which side.
I don't know if Jody was found in water, but if she was, there you go. There seems to be a question about Jodies 'job', which tends for her case to have this similarity also.
Joe on the other hand, was robbed, but he was found in a "pond" according to a source on here. But, what does tie the two together is the distance from the mountain ranges. Even though Joe was taken somewhere else, both Jodie and Joe live under 10 miles from one. This number keeps popping up. The articles I have read stated that she was found about 8 miles from her home. Why these distances? Why not a hundred miles away? The reason to me is simple; hand-held radio range.
This makes even more sense if you consider the fact there are no witnesses, etc. Big mystery. Especially in such a small town. But, no one noticed a stranger casing his place? If you consider the possiblity of a lookout on both of these mountain ranges with radios and a decent high powered telescope, observing and planning, along with one or two folks on the ground, then it makes more sense to me. According to my map it seems entirely possible from 2500 miles up. That would also make the radio's work better. Also, radio's work better from north to south than east to west. These guys must be pros, right? It's a question that could easily be answerd from someone in that area. If you can see the mountain from the bar, or Joes or Jodies homes, then they can see you.

I don't know if anyone has said what was in the safe at his home, except LE.

The safe at the bar was not robbed, nor was his person, so if there was just personal info in his safe at home, I'm not sure he was robbed. But that is jmo at this time.

Welcome! I enjoyed reading your posts on the other site. I think your theory is interesting.

 

[Nikki_2]

Very good question! Who knew about that safe?

Yes, who knew? and why was it discovered only on Friday that it had been robbed? Would someone not have noticed it on the Thursday?

 

[Nikki_2]

Thanks for posting the link Dream.

My question, before the bar gets sold, is the family sure everything has been done inside to find out what happened?

I agree, I can understand the family's decision, but perhaps it is way too soon to sell, something could emerge from any corner, something that was missed previously. Even on this board there are cases where people have scanned certain areas for people or items and found nothing, only to have 'fresh eyes' finding or noticing something missed.

Even though it is hard to revisit the place where a loved one has been hurt or killed, I believe that there are probably still some clues there that will disappear forever if sold

 

[missingmydad]

http://www.4029tv.com/news/21722884/detail.html

HERE IS A SHORT ARTICLE OF THE LATEST NEWS. IT AIRED TONIGHT AND I MISSED IT. THIS IS ALL THE ONLINE HAD, MY SISTER CALLED AND I LISTENED TO IT THOUGH. BASICALLY IT SAYS THAT THE FEDERAL DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAS DONATED OR FUNDED, WHATEVER, $500,000.00 TO FORM A COLD CASE UNIT. SPECIFICALLY THE "SOONER STATE", OKLAHOMA, FOR THE MURDER OF THE 2 LITTLE GIRLS FOUND SHOT TO DEATH IN WELEETKA. I HOPE AND PRAY THAT THIS IS GOING TO HELP MY DADS CASE AND JODYS TOO.

OKAY I NOTICED A FEW QUESTIONS I WILL ANSWER THOSE THEN GO BACK AND READ IT AND GET CAUGHT UP.
WE DID SEE THAT THE DOOR WAS CLOSED AND LOCKED ON THURSDAY WHEN HE WENT MISSING, AS DID THE LE. BUT SINCE THE HOUSE LOOKED TOTALLY UNDISTURBED AND HE WAS STILL "MISSING" NO SIGNS OF BREAK IN. THE NEXT DAY WE HAD LOOKED FOR HOURS AND HOURS. MET BACK AT THE HOME TO BRIEF EACH OTHER ON LOCATIONS THAT WE HAD COVERED. ONCE THERE, WE WERE ALL TALKING AND SOMEONE ASKED IF MAYBE HE COULD BE IN THE LOCKED ROOM. SO WE CHECKED, DISCOVERED THE SAFE, CALLED SHERIFFS OFFICE AND OSBI CAME IMMEDIATELY.
THE OSBI HAS RELEASED THE BAR. THEY HAVE COLLECTED EVERYTHING THAT PERTAINS TO THE INVESTIGATION, SO WE HAVE KEPT IT CLOSED AND LOCKED UP FOR OVER 6 MONTHS NOW "JUST IN CASE" BUT NOW WE FEEL IT IS TIME TO GET THAT PART OF THE NIGHTMARE BEHIND US.
MY DAD WAS FOUND IN A STRIP PIT. IT IS AN OLD MINE, THAT HAS FILLED WITH WATER. IT LOOKS LIKE A POND AND ON THE GOOGLE MAPS I ACTUALLY CAN SEE WHERE IT IS. IT LOOKS VERY VERY CLOSE TO THE RIVER. I PRAISE GOD THEY DID NOT THROW HIM IN THERE OR WE MIGHT NEVER HAVE FOUND HIM. CAN YOU IMAGINE?
JODY WAS NOT FOUND IN WATER. SHE WAS FOUND DUMPED ON THE EDGE OF A STATE PARK, IN THE WOODS. BY CHANCE A PARAGLIDER FLEW OVER HER AND THOUGHT IT WAS A TRASH BAG OR SOMETHING SO HE KEPT FLYING CLOSER UNTIL HE REALIZED IT WAS A BODY. HE THEN ALERTED THE AUTHORITIES. SHE DID HAVE HER RING ON. BUT HER VEHICLE WAS FOUND A COUPLE OF HOURS AWAY I THINK. PRETTY FAR ANYWAY.
SHE HAD JUST BEGAN SELLING AVON. I PRAY THAT HER MURDERER BE CAUGHT SOON AND PUNISHED TOO.
YOU CAN SEE THE MOUNTAIN WHERE JODY WAS FOUND FROM THE HILL WHERE THE BAR SITS. IT IS CALLED LONG LAKE HILL. THINK OF IT AS A TRIANGLE, THE BAR-POTEAU IS 1 CORNER, JODY FOUND HEAVENER- 2 CORNER, WISTER THE TOWN JODY LIVED IN 3 CORNER. IF YOU TAKE THE ROAD DOWN THE BACK SIDE OF THE BAR, YOU CAN GET TO WISTER. YOU CAN MAKE A BIG CIRCLE.
THANK YOU I AM GONNA GO CATCH UP NOW. HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE, AND TO ANYONE OUT THERE WHO IS GOING TO HAVE THEIR 1ST THANKSGIVING WITHOUT YOUR LOVED ONE, I AM SORRY AND I PRAY THAT GOD WILL GIVE US ALL STRENGTH TO GET THROUGH IT.

 

[missingmydad]

mmd, i am so sorry for your loss. I do have a few questions...

Did your uncle that co-owned the bar go to the bar daily, too? Not much has been mentioned about his presence or participation in the bar's day to day operation. Did he give his opinion of what he thought may have happened? I'm also wondering if he could shed some light on the actual amount of money missing from your dad's safe, assuming profits from their jointly owned bar were kept in it. I still haven't found any articles explaining how they determined that thousands were missing from the safe.

Although your family was not close to the gf, has she at least contacted any of you to ask about developments in the case? Did she come to your dad's house at all while your family was staying there when you still just thought he was missing? Since we know he wouldn't have been answering his cell phone, seems she would have been looking high and low for him. Going by or waiting at his house, calling the home phone, etc... If she believed he was only missing.

ok my uncle and dad were in a welding business and 2 others over the years together. The bar my dad did on his own. I am unsure about the amount of money but apparently someone knew approx. I just do not know, and it never really mattered to me. I have never been concerned with the safe. I knew he had it but never gave it a 2nd thought.
Yes the gf did look for him as well. There were several hundred looking, and over a thousand that attended his funeral. She came by often the first week. Then i have spoke to her 3 times since august. I really do not know her. She did not live with dad, but she had been dating him about a year. She did stay the night with him on wed before he died.