OK OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #3 *Arrests*

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I was struck by how early on this police interview occurred- April 3rd, so only 4 days after the disappearance.
Although- OSBI obtained a warrant for TA's phone on April 1st, so she knew very early on she was likely in trouble.

source
Wow. I think their ignorance in understanding how the legal system works and how police can question a minor without the parent's prescence/notifying if they are a witness or if notifying the parent would jeopardize the investigation. Same with the prepaid phones and thinking they couldn't be tracked. But, the daughter's interview is what is most crucial of the two imo.
 
The fact that VB requested police to be there at visitation hand off and it was declined hurts my heart. Oh she knew they would hurt her, if they could.

Instead the state set her up on a lonely dirt road headed to an closed business in the middle of nowhere.

Oh my. This needs to set a precedent, and I hope that judge or official is not sleeping well these days, that's about as nice as I can say right now.

Sometimes the court and other officials set DV victims up for failure and this is one of those times. <modsnip>
I don't doubt VB made mistakes as a young parent, but seeing her completing everything the court set out for her means she was working the plan for those kids.
 
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About how long does it take to get cause/manner of death from the ME? I can't remember.

ETA: Just looked it up. Cause and manner usually reportable within 24 hours, but toxicology, etc, takes longer.
 
About how long does it take to get cause/manner of death from the ME? I can't remember.
Week or two for a preliminary, if it is given, probably months for the final where toxicology, and further unspecified forensic testing is needed.

If there was both heavy trauma ( as from hammer blows) and gunshot(s) it might take some time to determine which was the more lethal insult.

The manner of death is murder and doesn't need to be further specified.
 
Honestly, would love to see TA's face when they all realized that the brave Twombley daughter was talking to police. They never considered this outcome, and once they realized they couldn't control it like they did with the poor fate of everyone else, it must have ate them alive.
Look at them! CW's mom Cora looks really angry. She knows that she trusted her 16 year old daughter with the secret of murder, and her daughter betrayed her. Cole Twombly looks like he's smirking, perhaps wondering how his wife could be so stupid as to share a murder plan with a 16 year old child.

Tifany looks somewhat defeated, as though she can't figure out how police were able to piece it all together. Tad looks meek, like the only one of the four who understands what they did.
 

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I was struck by how early on this police interview occurred- April 3rd, so only 4 days after the disappearance.
Although- OSBI obtained a warrant for TA's phone on April 1st, so she knew very early on she was likely in trouble.

source
I'm curious whether they obtained a warrant for her phone, or for information from her cell phone provider. For some reason, I thought the latter. That allowed investigators to obtain the information without her knowledge.
 
I forsee an attempt to turn the trial into a referendum on sovereign rights and free speech.

Thankfully, with OSBI and FBI that should not happen.

Wonder who is gonna be a quadruple DP murder judge? Anyone else expect a change of venue?
This will be interesting to watch play out and I do wonder if it will be moved to OKC? The other question I have is simply gathering a jury in places with sparse populations and where interconnections go back generations.

Moo
 
If the group was anti-government then they likely shared a distrust of the government at a deep level, including the government agency - Child Protective Services. They were on a mission, Cora and Cole said, and that mission was likely to save the Butler children from decisions the government might make. They likely all believed the same thing, shared the same worldview, so to speak. Butler and Kelly were the enemy. The children had to be saved. I think that was how they saw it and that was their mission. I don't think it was just TA. She may have been a controlling presence, but I think the others acted out of the same beliefs and world view.
I'm still trying to catch up in this thread, but from what I've read so far the above post from @Sundog seems to make sense.

MOO, but based on the affidavits I've read earlier in the thread, the actions of the people arrested, and perhaps others, would seem to indicate a profound mistrust of governmental authority in general.

From the documents released so far, IMO it appears this particular group of people combined their deep 'anti-government' feelings within some type of pseudo-religious context, regardless of how illigocal that may sound. As @Sundog suggested, these people seem to have made it their religious mission to 'save' these children from both Veronica and perceived government oversight.

MOO
 
I'm curious whether they obtained a warrant for her phone, or for information from her cell phone provider. For some reason, I thought the latter. That allowed investigators to obtain the information without her knowledge.
It was for the phone itself, which they then performed a data extraction on. This is when they found her web searches for taser pain level, gun shops, prepaid phones, and how to get someone out of their house.

I imagine she was interviewed prior to this though, when she told the lie about Veronica canceling the pickup. This, combined with the custody battle and lie about the other supervisor being unavailable, may have given them probable cause for that phone warrant.
 
Yes! And they (TA, TC, and crew) sure didn’t have a Plan B. (Thank goodness.) Come to think of it……. and as I write this……. I don’t think they had a Plan A either. MOO
Yes, the drop the anvil plan is one for the record books and sounded like Plan A. We saw the horrific Plan B which was outlined in the AA yesterday.

There are a million and one ways to get someone to come out of their house and YET we see in the AA that TA actually had to ask Google for an answer. Even Siri and Echo have some easy options so maybe the issue is more complex than I thought? But seriously this crew seems quite dim. I cannot wait to read more about their views on the evils of government and rules and regulations etc.

Moo
 
It's wild to me how much control TA had over all of the custody and visitation arrangements, especially since she was not one of the bio parents of the kids, and neither parent has had their parental rights terminated. I know it speaks to TA's need to control people, situations, children, etc., but I can only imagine how frustrating it must have been in Veronica's shoes, to feel completely at the "mercy" of TA's decisions when it came to the 1 day a week she had with her children. From what we've seen/read/heard thus far, TA had first pick over who the preferred supervisor would be for each day, if her kids were available or not for visits, and I have a feeling (IMHO) TA also attempted to control the kids' thoughts/opinions when it came to any family outside of her (TA's) home.
Guessing that TA had info (maybe fabrications) that undermined VB's credibility during the earlier custody hearings. Since judges don't have personal knowledge of the family dynamics, they can only make educated guesses about credibility & what's really going on between opposing parties.
 
Are the ones for cattle the same as those sold for police and self defense use?
Not an expert but cattle are sometimes moved via use of prods while stun gun for civilian use are smaller and the non LE versions are not as powerful. I didn’t see which one TA purchased. Did she purchase a cattle prod or a civilian version of a stun gun?
MOO
 
Yes but no. All indications are that the two bodies recovered are theirs (OSBI attached the announcement to a previous arrest announcement), but we are waiting on confirmation/cause and manner of death.
Thanks for the reply! I was seeing it both ways. Just speculating here, but you'd think that identities would be possible from a visual inspection?? I mean, it was only a day or two after the arrest, IIRC.

Is there a timeframe when we might hear anything more definitive?

JMO.
 
I've been enjoying reading the thoughts of WSers about what the gang of Misfits had planned and what went wrong.
My own mind has also been whirling and think we can guess. What I see are major miscalculations, driven largely by TA’s need to control and be in on “the kill” as well as she and her gang overestimating her influence with local LE.

The Twomleys diverted the blue Kia carrying VB and JK onto a desolate road (L) from State Highway 95. Surely the intent was for the two vehicles (Chevy pickup and flatbed) to chase the two women far enough down the road so the car would not be visible from the main road. However, TC and TA rushed in too fast from the opposite direction and boxed the Kia in just 1,000 feet from 95, easily visible to a man who said he called the abandoned car in to 911 between 9:30 and 10 a.m. The car was also visible and recognizable to VB’s family who came looking for her around noon.
If TC and TA had hung back and allowed the two women to drive further on the road, neither sighting would have been possible.
Some of us think that Jillian having a gun was probably a surprise to the attackers. Whether she managed to hit someone or just startled and upset them, we don’t know. Somehow the plan seems to have expected demure, non-fighting victims. VB and JK were badly out-numbered but managed to skewer the Misfits’ plan.
According to the scenario presented by @otto, Veronica’s broken glasses located south of the vehicle indicates VB likely jumped from the Kia and started running back toward the main road - and possible help. Unfortunately she was stopped by the Twombleys, leaving blood and a broken hammer with her glasses pieces.
Since there was evidence of foul play around the vehicle, I wonder if removing the Kia from the scene (say on the flatbed) might have made a big difference. With the car gone, would anyone ever see the blood, broken glasses or hammer left at the scene? Unless someone walks or jogs the road, maybe the elements would have eventually destroyed the evidence as only vehicles would have driven through or over it. Would any of the evidence have been visible to anyone in or on a vehicle?
However, instead of the blue Kia being a couple of miles back the road, it was just 1,000 feet off the main road– easily visible to anyone driving 95.
To me, this was the attention-grabbing, glaring error.
Secondly, those ludicrous “burner” phones, which TA purchased at her local Walmart in Guymon. I am inclined to think she would have been dumb enough to put their purchase on a card instead of paying cash. The three burner phones were activated in the vicinity of TC’s home. All three were onsite at the ambush and all three were at the burial place, where they pinged a final time and were shut down.
To even indicate that anyone other than her gang was involved, TA should have arranged for those phones to have been ridden out of Texas County and into another state or two. Each turned off, smashed into pieces and tossed away, perhaps a bit at a time. Of course, then the trackers that it appears most recent auto models have would have tattled on them anyway.
As the Misfits did handle the phones, they simply drew a map for LE – from ownership, to crime, to burial site.
And the final and most devastating mistake of all was perhaps overestimating TA’s popularity and influence within LE. As chairman or president of the Texas County Republican Party, undoubtedly she did have influence. Just not as much as crimes of this nature require. Remember her son alleged that TA had LE in her pocket. Well, once the car and surrounding evidence were discovered, the local sheriff called the state agency, who investigated the case along with the FBI. Solved and arrests made in two weeks. TA certainly does not have the Texas County sheriff in her pocket, nor OSBI nor the FBI. Huge, life-threatening miscalculation.
 
yes, absolutely so why didn't LE protect her? Or help her obtain a restraining order. Or at least suggest she go to the court to get one?
Which LE was supposed to help VB? She lived in Kansas but the case was heard in OK on territory where it appears TA by all accounts controlled local LE and we have yet to hear about her ability to influence judicial proceedings. Local LE supposedly supported the idea that they need not be present at custody exchanges.

It’s a rhetorical question but truly where could VB go for help if LE wasn't supportive and the Judge wasn’t giving credence to her requests or statements to the Court?

I wonder if we will hear more about why TA attorney supposedly resigned his counsel in the custody case. I do wonder how much he knew or suspected prior to filing with the court about no longer appearing on her behalf?

MOO
 
They did have a flatbed truck that was used to load the 'slid steer', so it's quite possible that they planned to load the car onto that truck and haul it away.

Yes- and according to the arrest affadavit, CW (dtr of CoraT) reported that her mom and step-dad took a "blue and gray Chevrolet pickup owned by them and a blue flatbed pickup... when they left and returned in the same vehicles." (Cole Twombly AA).

I had the same thought- Cora and Cole T took both vehicles with the intent of using the flatbed to load the car onto the truck and haul it away. Additionally, the two trucks would be useful to fully block the roadway, and cause VB and JK to have to divert their route off of the intended route.

Yesterday another had asked about the flatbed and might it tilt. Some do. Those are often called a ‘roll-back’ over here on the east coast. Usually used to retrieve stalled or abandoned cars. Hydraulic operated tilt bed and roll-back or slide usually. (Those differ from a fixed-bed flatbed type truck. Not sure which this one was, or if any pictures have surfaced.)

I am wondering if this one did also tilt? And if so it might have been planned to use it to move VB car if needed, as well as the skid steer or grader used at the dam site? MOO

bbm

A flatbed pickup is just a flat bed on a pickup chassis, instead of having a bed with side walls, fenders, and tailgate.

A tow truck style with a flat bed and hydraulic system is a longer and heavier chassis than a pickup, and is made to load and haul vehicles, and can handle their weight. Those are not flatbed pickups.

A flatbed pickup would not be used to haul a car, there just isn’t enough room behind the cab of the pickup for a normal-sized car. And getting it up there would be an insane activity. Not happening.

A flatbed pickup would certainly not be used to haul a skid steer, which is heavy and always hauled on a trailer (usually a low profile trailer with the trailer bed a couple of feet off the ground) onto which the skid steer can be loaded by driving up ramps.
 
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