Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #4 *Arrests*

[Artis]

Do you guys know what the scoop on Wrangler is? I mean is it confirmed he was in rehab?

 

[legomonster]

Was the decision to hold defendants without bail held-over to the morning? Hopefully there is no bail for any of the defendants.

Cora's daughter is the prime witness, perhaps supported by a 5th possibly participant in the murders. I think her parents and their friends should remain in jail for her protection.

I was looking over the Oklahoma Statutes

§22-1101. Offenses bailable - Who may take bail.
C. All persons shall be bailable by sufficient sureties, except that bail may be denied for:
1. Capital offenses when the proof of guilt is evident, or the presumption there of is great;
2. Violent offenses;
3. Offenses where the maximum sentence may be life imprisonment or life imprisonment without parole;
4. Felony offenses where the person charged with the offense has been convicted of two or more felony offenses arising out of different transactions; and
5. Controlled dangerous substances offenses where the maximum sentence may be at least ten (10) years’ imprisonment.

On all offenses specified in paragraphs 2 through 5 of this subsection, the proof of guilt must be evident, or the presumption
must be great, and it must be on the grounds that no condition of release would assure the safety of the community or any person.

D. There shall be a rebuttable presumption that no condition of release would assure the safety of the community if the state shows
by clear and convincing evidence that the person was arrested for a violation of Section 741 of Title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes.

I've seen better nicknames written on the walls of filthy public restrooms at rest stops in the armpit of America but God's Misfits fits several of these categories.

 

[Seattle1]

APR 16, 2024

4 suspects in Texas County double murder case to appear in court

The four suspects linked to the murders of Veronica Butler and Jilian Kelley are expected in court Wednesday

www.koco.com

The suspects are due to appear before a Texas County judge at 9:30 a.m. They will hear their charges and be advised of their constitutional rights.

The possibility of bail may be discussed, but it has been set for the four suspects, and they have not yet bonded out of jail.

^^bubm

Bail has been set but none have yet bonded out? Whaaaaaa?

Anyone see how much the bail is?

^^bubm
Although it was reported as linked above that bail has been set for the four suspects, we know this is not true for a couple of reasons.

First, pursuant to OK criminal procedures, setting bail requires a hearing before the Judge, and the four named defendants for this case haven't even made their initial appearances yet!

Second, as each are being charged with two counts of first degree murder, capital offenses, (in addition to other charges), where the crime is punishable by death, imprisonment for life, or imprisonment for life without parole, they are not eligible for bail release at this time.

Pursuant to the OK Constitution, while bail is a right, it may be denied for the following:

• capital offenses when the proof of guilt is evident, or the presumption thereof is great;
• violent offenses;
• offenses where the maximum sentence may be life imprisonment or life imprisonment without parole;
• felony offenses where the person charged with the offense has been convicted of two or more felony offenses arising out of different transactions; and
• controlled dangerous substances offenses where the maximum sentence may be at least ten (10) years imprisonment.

Yet, even if the Defendant is charged with one of the above offenses, the proof or presumption of guilt must be great.

During the preliminary hearing, if the State fails to satisfy the PEPG burden to hold the defendant until the trial concludes, only then will a defendant charged with a capital offense be considered for pretrial bail release.

The Criminal Process

www.oklahomalegalgroup.com

 

[nightowl1975]

In one of the court documents from the custody case, it says that they used to have LE there at the child exchange time for safety reasons, and that this was by VB's request. HOWEVER, it also says that they stopped doing that, despite VB continuing to request this, because the cops decided it was UNNECESSARY! So they thought she was just saying they needed to be there, probably to make TA and/or Wrangler look bad, when really she was at no risk from them, so no need for LE to come anymore. And this is documented, on record, of them saying this, so I hope this comes up later.

Regardless of what anyone said or didn’t say was “necessary”, it seems like anyone could still choose to do hand offs in the parking lot of the police station. I guess both parties would need to agree to that though.

 

[PommyMommy]

Do you guys know what the scoop on Wrangler is? I mean is it confirmed he was in rehab?

Yes.

Affidavit reveals possible motivation behind plot to kill 2 Kansas women in Oklahoma Panhandle

Newly released court documents provide new details about the investigation into the disappearance of two Kansas women who went missing in late March while in Oklahoma.

www.wlwt.com

The two children were in Adams' custody when Butler and Kelley disappeared, and investigators confirmed that their father was in an Oklahoma City rehabilitation facility.

 

[simlyme]

My Opinion. I'm confident in saying ,
None of them will have bond !
There's just too much to all of this !

 

[Artis]

Yes.

Affidavit reveals possible motivation behind plot to kill 2 Kansas women in Oklahoma Panhandle

Newly released court documents provide new details about the investigation into the disappearance of two Kansas women who went missing in late March while in Oklahoma.

www.wlwt.com

The two children were in Adams' custody when Butler and Kelley disappeared, and investigators confirmed that their father was in an Oklahoma City rehabilitation facility.

What an awful thought to think that he'll ever be out in the community, again, because my impression was that he knew a murder was planned (told his grandmother).

 

[Artis]

In one of the court documents from the custody case, it says that they used to have LE there at the child exchange time for safety reasons, and that this was by VB's request. HOWEVER, it also says that they stopped doing that, despite VB continuing to request this, because the cops decided it was UNNECESSARY! So they thought she was just saying they needed to be there, probably to make TA and/or Wrangler look bad, when really she was at no risk from them, so no need for LE to come anymore. And this is documented, on record, of them saying this, so I hope this comes up later.

Do you have a link to that document?

 

[PommyMommy]

My Opinion. I'm confident in saying ,
None of them will have bond !
There's just too much to all of this !

Yep, it's a no brainer. They're not going anywhere. MOO

 

[Cedars]

I also think they will take a plea deal so that all of their skeletons don't come out. I can easily see this getting pled down and no trial, which means the public will never know the depths they went to, who was all involved, and for how long.

I doubt whether prosecutors offer a plea deal to everyone. I think it's pretty strategic, sometimes they want to avoid a trial because it will require painful testimony from too many, sometimes they want to guarantee convictions so will offer a deal to one person in exchange for testimony against.the others...I think they decide on deals on a case by case basis, balancing public interest vs risk of losing a case.

ETA And not everyone is willing to plead guilty, or do down their co-conspiritors.
JMO

 

[Luna20]

The suspects might have realized that an arrest was pending, so one suspect phone an old friend, the Judge, to step in and take charge? Did this judge know about the warrants?

That’s a curious thought because the optics are sketchy. Something had to be at play to get him there. It wasn’t just a coincidence so he decided to resign and get out quick.

 

[otto]

In Oklahoma, common types of bail include:

1. Surety Bond: A surety bond is bail posted by a third party. A bail bond company may post the bail amount due with the court for a 10 percent or 15 percent payment. Notably, surety bond will not be refunded to the defendant or their family members, as the bail bondsman keep that amount as their fee.
2. Cash Bond: A cash bond is as simple and straightforward as you think. In Oklahoma, a defendant may be allowed to post cash bail with the court. Assuming they attend all court dates, their cash bail will be refunded.
3. Property Bond: Oklahoma allows many defendants to use property to post bail. With a property bond, a defendant can usually real property—most of a home—as collateral to post the full bail amount owed to the court.
4. Personal Recognizance Bond: For minor crimes (typically non-violent misdemeanor offenses), a defendant may be released on a “personal recognizance” or “own recognizance” bond. Also known as a PR bond, this type of bail only requires the defendant to sign a written agreement promising to return to court.

https://www.superlawyers.com/resources/criminal-defense/oklahoma/the-types-of-bail-in-oklahoma-and-how-to-post-it/

(more at link)

Is bond granted in death penalty cases in Oklahoma?

"Every person who, without lawful authority, forcibly seizes and confines another, or inveigles or kidnaps another, for the purpose of extorting any money, property or thing of value or advantage from the person so seized, confined, inveigled or kidnapped, or from any other person, or in any manner threatens either by written instrument, word of mouth, message, telegraph, telephone, by placing an ad in a newspaper, or by messenger, demands money or other thing of value, shall be guilty of a felony, and upon conviction shall suffer death or imprisonment in the State Penitentiary, not less than ten (10) years."

2023 Oklahoma Statutes :: Title 21. Crimes and Punishments :: §21-745. Kidnapping for purpose of extortion - Assisting in disposing, receiving, possessing or exchanging money or property received.

Justia Free Databases of US Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

 

[OddOneOut]

In one of the court documents from the custody case, it says that they used to have LE there at the child exchange time for safety reasons, and that this was by VB's request. HOWEVER, it also says that they stopped doing that, despite VB continuing to request this, because the cops decided it was UNNECESSARY! So they thought she was just saying they needed to be there, probably to make TA and/or Wrangler look bad, when really she was at no risk from them, so no need for LE to come anymore. And this is documented, on record, of them saying this, so I hope this comes up later.

Thank you, I was wondering why they didn't do this at the police station or at least a busy public area.

 

[otto]

Do you guys know what the scoop on Wrangler is? I mean is it confirmed he was in rehab?

Confirmed rehab in the Arrest Warrant. However, there is a suggestion that Wrangler told a grandmother in February that his custody issues with Veronica would be solved and his mother knew where the Judge walked to work.

It sounds like Wrangler new about the plan to murder Veronica, but did not participate in the murder because he was in rehab. We don't know the depths of his involvement, but it seems like his mother will protect him so he can take control of the children for her.

Arrest Warrant

 

[windrower]

Reference a possible type of flatbed truck up thread (I.e. post #1003 in three 3 and the antecedent message post #960 in thread #3) - link below:

I was attempting to clarify - that absent pictures of the vehicle - one cannot be certain, although it might be such as this image here. Typically referred to as a roll-back truck TMK, or flat bed ‘tow’ truck. I was not referring to a pick up truck or pick up flat bed, rather something larger. And which could be used to haul another vehicle or a skid-steer.

It is not certain what type of vehicle the witness was referring to, but IIRC it was only indicated as a ‘flatbed truck’. MOO

Post in thread 'OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #3 *Arrests*'
OK - OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #3 *Arrests*

She [CW] said Cole and Cora took a blue and gray Chevrolet pickup owned by them and a blue flatbed pickup, owned by Clint Twombly, when they left and returned in the same pickups.

Court Documents: 4 suspects in missing Kansas women case part of anti-government group

Court documents show the details of the investigation that led to the arrest of four suspects in the murders of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelley.

www.newschannel10.com

No, not a flatbed truck, but a flatbed pickup truck. There’s a difference. A flatbed pickup truck is what is shown in Ksfarmer8’s post below.

I'm guessing that Cole Twombly's flat bed truck was used to transport the skid steer loader to the burial location, and then back to Twombly's cattle ranch. If so, and to be consistent with Tifany's claim that Veronica cancelled the visit, then the plan was to remove Veronica's car from Hwy 95 and Road L. Why bring a flat bed truck to a murder scene where the vehicle is evidence?

No, Clint Trombly’s flatbed pickup truck would not work to move the skid steer, and would not have worked to move a car.

She [CW] said Cole and Cora took a blue and gray Chevrolet pickup owned by them and a blue flatbed pickup, owned by Clint Twombly, when they left and returned in the same pickups.

Court Documents: 4 suspects in missing Kansas women case part of anti-government group

Court documents show the details of the investigation that led to the arrest of four suspects in the murders of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelley.

www.newschannel10.com

My guess the flatbed truck mentioned was about the size of an F350 and used to transport 2000 lb round bales to feed cattle. They are a flatbed but a very short flat bed. The Twombly's needed two vehicles for the diversion, one up the road for the lookout and the second for the road obstruction on HWY 95.That is why they needed 2 phones IMO.
Skid loaders are rarely moved on a flatbed because of the need for a loading "dock" to get the loader on and off the truck. Skid loaders are almost always transported on a "lowboy" trailer in which the skid steer can be driven on and off the trailer. One of the Twombly vehicles could have been towing a trailer (probably a cattle trailer) to block the roadway. JMO
IMO there was no skid loader at the incident site.
View attachment 497615

Thank you, Kfarmer8, for the photo, and for trying to explain, again, what a flatbed pickup truck is, and its limitations.

 

[Sillybilly]

Hey everyone,

Please pay attention when our Moderators or Admins give instruction.

Knitty posted this earlier in the thread:

OK - OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #3 *Arrests*

I think she was front and center and then confessed to cut an early bird deal. This is what I believe as well. She had lots of time to think about this as LE got closer and closer. In the end, she is STILL only going to do what Tifany wants for Tifany. My guess is that she is banking on Life...

www.websleuths.com

Regardless, we've had to remove several posts where members continue to discuss "sovereign citizen" as if it is a given, when there are no links to approved sources to support that as fact.

 

[sunspun]

Do you have a link to that document?

(emphasis was already in the original text, not added by me) (This was part of a brief written by Wrangler Rickman's atty on Wrangler's behalf when he was seeking sole custody of their children.) ETA And it came from here: https://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetCaseInformation.aspx?db=appellate&number=DF-119621&cmid=130391

 

[Artis]

View attachment 497707(emphasis was already in the original text, not added by me) (This was part of a brief written by Wrangler Rickman's atty on Wrangler's behalf when he was seeking sole custody of their children.) ETA And it came from here: https://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetCaseInformation.aspx?db=appellate&number=DF-119621&cmid=130391

Gee, maybe the sheriff could have considered that the reason he never witnessed anything during the exchanges to concern him was because HE WAS THERE. Awful

 

[Songbird1973]

LE wouldn't have to be responsible; the solution you mention in Virginia would probably work just fine. Looking at Google Maps, there's a police station right in Elkhart that would have been a far more appropriate place to do the handover, IMO. I just can't understand why anyone ever thought it was appropriate to tell this woman who was scared to death of her eventual murderer that she had to meet that woman out in the middle of nowhere and be a sitting duck.

I'm behind so maybe this has already been discussed downstream, but I'd like to leave a few points on this question, just to clarify, not that it makes a difference.

1. To people who's homes may be 10-15 miles down a gravel road and who's nearest neighbor may be 2 or 3 miles away, an intersection of two highways with homes on several corners IS a busy, "populated" place. It is likely "the" meeting place in that area for carpooling, etc.
2. Veronica was meeting WR, not Grandma at the time.
3. When the Four Corners location was chosen, VB lived in the area, so it probably was central to both parents at the time. She only asked for the pickup location to be changed to Elkhart after she moved to Hugoton, KS. The reason she gives is that Elkhart would now be a more central location to where she moved. She doesn't mention not feeling safe.

MOO. I think it is very likely that WR and VB had already been meeting at Four Corners, and suggested it themselves to the judge. There simply isn't anything better to choose from locally. And there is no evidence that VB objected to that choice in court. (Yes I know she later called LE to be at some of the pickups.) But it's a 20-25 mile drive in any direction from Four Corners to the nearest towns big enough to have at least one active business. I think if the judge had instead ordered the couple to meet up at, say a busy spot in Guymon, both parties would have literally had to follow each other there and back again on a 50 mile round trip to the spot (if they both lived west of Four Corners). In hindsight, we can say it would have been worth it, but at the time I doubt either party would have thought it was reasonable. But in the end it wouldn't have made a difference anyway. We now know for certain that the ladies weren't killed at Four Corners, presumably because... it's too busy of a place. (In comparison to where the murder occurred.) So in that sense, it served it's purpose. But, even if they had met in Guymon, or any other town, VB would still have had to drive at least one 20 mile, lonely road to get there, and been in the same danger.

 

[sunshineray]

Is there still one man who was involved at large, the unnamed man?