Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #6 *Arrests*

[SteveP]

Yes, we know the outcome - murder- but VB and JK didn't immediately know that's what was coming. Is it possible VB and JK thought it was Tifany and friends staging a weird intervention or come to Jesus meeting and at first were more angry and confused about this detour and meet-up than they were afraid for their lives? I could very well see that happening.

That is possible, but I really believe that as soon as VB saw TA, and TC, who she surely knew as well, she knew she and JK were in great danger. I doubt that they got out of their vehicles smiling. I think they were ready to pounce, and the ladies were probably overtaken before they even had time to react, especially if they also saw PG. JMO

 

[Rixey]

I could be completely wrong, and often am, but I think the weak link in the group is probably PG. For my scenario, that the car was meant to be driven away, to be correct, someone would have needed to have driven with someone else. I think we can pretty much be sure that each CT drove, as we have heard that they drove both a pickup and flatbed. It seems likely to me that TA would have driven alone, leaving TC and PG to have ridden together, which makes sense, if we assume that TC was at the site of the hole that morning, which was across the road from PG, IIRC. So, again in my scenario, which, again, may be completely wrong, PG was meant to be the driver. For whatever reason, freezing up in fear and backing out, or something happening that left the car undriveable, I am not sure, but the car was not moved.

Even a plan doomed for failure is still a plan. I am almost certain that there was a plan of some type for the Kia to be removed from the scene. They had a frikkin Wile E Coyote anvil plan a month earlier, and googled how to get someone out of a house. Do any of us really think they just "forgot" about the car being at the scene of the crime? Not I. Something happened to blow their plan for it out of the water, but I am sure there must have been one. JMO

Maybe they forgot to google "what to do with victim's car after the murder"? It's not like they could glean this from Wile E Coyote since the Road Runner doesn't drive.

 

[Error505]

Have these 5 been charged under the DP yet?

The DP gets defendants to talk 95% of the time from what I have seen.....2 Cents

The DA said it would be decided later whether to seek the DP, iirc!
MOO

 

[Cool Cats]

If I recall correctly -- and that's a big "if," -- the ambush took place just 1000 feet off the highway. So, about 2/10ths of a mile. That's close enough to the Highway that the women should have seen other cars if they were waiting down there.

Would they have willingly turned toward an ambush? Or, were they being pursued hot and heavy and the other vehicles overtook and passed them on the dirt road and then cut them off?

What if they hadn't have turned? I'm thinking there had to be one or more vehicles chasing them from behind when the spotted the blocked road in front.

All JMOO...

This is how it looks to me from local maps and the Arrest Affidavit.... 2 Cents

Butler told relatives she was picking up her children at Four Corners. This is at the
Intersection of State Highway 95 and US 64 West.

Four Corners is an unincorporated community in western Texas County, Oklahoma, United States.[1] It is located at the western US-64/412/State Highway 3 - SH-95 junction in the Oklahoma Panhandle.

The 2 women did not get that far. They were 5 miles north of Four Corners on State Hwy 95 where a road intersects with Hwy 95 called Road L. Apparently the killers planned to cut off and ambush the 2 women 5 miles from the meet-up area of Four Coners.

Cole Twombly and Cora Twombly drove the Chevrolet pickup and the blue flatbed pickup to the intersection of State Hwy 95 & Road L and waited for the 2 women.

It is very desolate and I believe they likely used binoculars and watched Hwy 95 in a northerly direction because the 2 women would be driving south on Hwy 95 from Hugoton Kansas....As it looks to me from the map.

The Twomblys saw the Kia with the 2 women coming south towards them. At this point the Twomblys deliberately blocked Hwy 95. The women tried to get around the Twombly vehicles but ended up off the roadway just west of Hwy 95 and Road L.

At this point all 5 tried to apprehend the 2 women. The women may have left their vehicle in order to flee or possibly the hammer was used on a car window and this caused the women to flee the vehicle.

It is also possible that the driver of the Kia put down her window to ask "What the hell is going on?"

Cora asked her daughter to clean the interior of the Chevrolet pickup so I believe this was the vehicle that transported the kidnapped women who were then driven to the Beasly farm.

36.774487, -101.893106
Four Corners, Oklahoma

https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/odot/maps/state/2022/32442-OTRD-2023-Oklahoma-State-Map-2-F.jpg

 

[Artis]

Under Oklahoma statute § 21-741, kidnapping is the unlawful abduction, confinement or restraint of a person against his or her will.

How were they moved?

I don't have any idea how they were moved but as far as kidnapping goes, I think the moment they were prevented (restrained) from going where they were going constitutes kidnapping.

 

[Artis]

I agree it is possible the casing or magazine had been in her purse several days or weeks. I am a concealed carry lady and it would not be unusual for a forgotten casing to be in my purse or car. I do not carry when I will be around children, work, or other circumstances when it would a question of safety for others.

Good point on having a firearm around kids. I've never owned a gun so don't know what the normal safety protocol would be but I'd bet it would be to have the weapon holstered, on your person. Her husband could answer if she did that.

 

[Artis]

Aside from just my gut feeling that the Kia was never planned to be hauled away in the stock trailer, I still believe it would have been extremely difficult, and not a very quick task, to load it onto the trailer, IF it would even fit. While there are some that are 8 feet wide, the standard stock trailer is 7'wide, with an actual interior width of about 6'8". The width of a Kia Sportage, which is what I have read VB owned, but also the width of most misdsized KIas, is about the same, depending on year, is about 6'1, and that does not take into account the external mirrors on either side, which could be folded in. Assuming the trailer had a ramp capable of driving the Kia into the trailer on, it would have been a helluva tight squeeze, at absolute best, to get the car inside. It certainly would not be a matter of jumping in the car, driving up and in, and being gone in a couple minutes time. And the driver was not getting out, unless the car had a sunroof.

I do not believe the stock trailer was ever planned to haul the car, nor do I believe that it realistically could have. I believe it's role was merely to block the road, and perhaps provide the means of getting the victims to the burial site. JMO

Hey, maybe that's where things didn't go according to their plan. The car wouldn't fit or they couldn't get out of it once driven inside the trailer.

 

[Bree1950]

Paul Grice will be the one to testify willingly against the other 4. I’m sure he’s been telling investigators all they want to know, even without an attorney present. Good!
MOO

I’m not sure - he seems extremely devoted to his group. I’m thinking the one who will talk will most likely be Cora T.

 

[SweetDreamsAreMadeOfCheez]

Maybe they forgot to google "what to do with victim's car after the murder"? It's not like they could glean this from Wile E Coyote since the Road Runner doesn't drive.

MEEP! MEEP! Sorry couldn't resist. The first plan with the anvil is just as laughable. Who even thinks of that? An anvil flying into a windshield is going to look accidental....right?!?

 

[Artis]

That is when the judge will decide whether to give him a bond.

Man makes court appearance in murdered Kansas moms case

A man who was arrested last week in the deaths of Jillian Kelley and Veronica Butler made his first court appearance on Wednesday in Texas County, Oklahoma.

www.ksn.com

What is the difference between these first court appearances and an arraignment?

 

[Cool Cats]

I don't have any idea how they were moved but as far as kidnapping goes, I think the moment they were prevented (restrained) from going where they were going constitutes kidnapping.

Yes!

All you have to do is restrain someone. Even a person keeping you from leaving your house could be charged as kidnapping.....depending on the DA

(taking a person's car keys to keep them from driving drunk and causing mayhem is not kidnapping)

 

[Bree1950]

That’s a LOT of digging to dispose of two women, especially using a borrowed backhoe. Borrowed a stock trailer just to block the road, but 2 vehicles could have blocked the road. I’m beginning to think the plan was to put the car in the stock trailer and bury it with the women. Sounds crazy, but we are dealing with crazies!
MOO

LE has to believe the stock trailer has evidence since they towed it away!

 

[Curious Me]

Paul Grice will be the one to testify willingly against the other 4. I’m sure he’s been telling investigators all they want to know, even without an attorney present. Good!
MOO

This is JMO and thoughts. I'd bet when this all goes to trial, you can expect these five sovereign citizen believers to rely on every legal loophole to have things thrown out or delayed. The person I knew that believed they were sovereign was real picky about details and had arguments to get around laws, even the way they signed their signature was a loophole plan. ​

 

[Cool Cats]

MEEP! MEEP! Sorry couldn't resist. The first plan with the anvil is just as laughable. Who even thinks of that? An anvil flying into a windshield is going to look accidental....right?!?

What? Roll it off a flatbed? Most likely would hit the road or crush the engine.

This is stupidity at it's finest...or worst I should say.

 

[Cool Cats]

What is the difference between these first court appearances and an arraignment?

"STATE OF OKLAHOMA VS. GRICE, PAUL JEREMIAH " (CF-2024-00081) | On Demand Court Records

www1.odcr.com

Calendar events for Paul Grice​

Date	Time	Description
04/24/2024		WARRANT ISSUED-CF/MURDER - Completed: 04/29/2024, Code: X
05/01/2024	9:30am	INITIAL APPEARANCE - Completed: 05/01/2024, Code: X
05/15/2024	9:00am	STATUS HEARING

OKLAHOMA

Criminal Law

Legal Resources Criminal Law PDF Version CRIMES Crimes are generally classified as felonies or misdemeanors. Usually, felonies are punished by a sentence of one year or more in prison. Misdemeanor…

www.okbar.org

INITIAL APPEARANCE
If you are charged with a crime, this will be the first time you go before a judge. You will be advised of the charges filed against you, and a bond will be set, which you must arrange to pay before you may be released from jail.

STATUS HEARING
Generally, these hearings are a time for your lawyer and the prosecutor to discuss your case. The prosecutor may make a plea bargain offer, which you and your lawyer will discuss. If you decide to accept the offer, you would waive or give up your right to a trial and set your case for a date for you to plead guilty. If you do not accept the plea offer, you will have your case set for a preliminary hearing.

PRELIMINARY HEARING
If you are charged with a felony, you have a right to a preliminary hearing. A preliminary hearing is a court hearing where witnesses testify, and the judge decides whether there is enough evidence against you to order you to have a trial. If the judge thinks there is enough evidence to believe a crime was committed and enough evidence to believe you committed the crime (probable cause), the judge will “bind you over” for trial.

 

[Artis]

Just found this re: sovereign citizens. Definitely worth a read:

https://www.sog.unc.edu/sites/www.sog.unc.edu/files/Sov%20citizens%20quick%20guide%20Nov%2013.pdf

For people who are allegedly trying to disentangle themselves from the system, they sure spend a lot of time filing documents with various clerks, state offices, going to court and dealing with that system. Seems like a poor approach to achieve their goal, lol.

 

[Bree1950]

This is how it looks to me from local maps and the Arrest Affidavit.... 2 Cents

Butler told relatives she was picking up her children at Four Corners. This is at the
Intersection of State Highway 95 and US 64 West.

Four Corners is an unincorporated community in western Texas County, Oklahoma, United States.[1] It is located at the western US-64/412/State Highway 3 - SH-95 junction in the Oklahoma Panhandle.

The 2 women did not get that far. They were 5 miles north of Four Corners on State Hwy 95 where a road intersects with Hwy 95 called Road L. Apparently the killers planned to cut off and ambush the 2 women 5 miles from the meet-up area of Four Coners.

Cole Twombly and Cora Twombly drove the Chevrolet pickup and the blue flatbed pickup to the intersection of State Hwy 95 & Road L and waited for the 2 women.

It is very desolate and I believe they likely used binoculars and watched Hwy 95 in a northerly direction because the 2 women would be driving south on Hwy 95 from Hugoton Kansas....As it looks to me from the map.

The Twomblys saw the Kia with the 2 women coming south towards them. At this point the Twomblys deliberately blocked Hwy 95. The women tried to get around the Twombly vehicles but ended up off the roadway just west of Hwy 95 and Road L.

At this point all 5 tried to apprehend the 2 women. The women may have left their vehicle in order to flee or possibly the hammer was used on a car window and this caused the women to flee the vehicle.

It is also possible that the driver of the Kia put down her window to ask "What the hell is going on?"

Cora asked her daughter to clean the interior of the Chevrolet pickup so I believe this was the vehicle that transported the kidnapped women who were then driven to the Beasly farm.

36.774487, -101.893106
Four Corners, Oklahoma

https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/odot/maps/state/2022/32442-OTRD-2023-Oklahoma-State-Map-2-F.jpg

My question in this case is where were the women actually killed? We know there was blood where the car was found and broken eyeglasses. LE will be able to test and see whose blood was splattered in each blood spot both inside and outside the car. It can look like a lot of blood but remember, a bag of blood for a transfusion splattered on the ground what look horrific but you can donate a bag of blood. Since LE towed the livestock trailer off the property, I’m wondering if the women were incapacitated but not dead and taken to the burying site in the trailer? I also think the above post regarding the pickup may be accurate? I’ve also wondered if JK was incapacitated but not dead and transported in the truck but VB was in the trailer? It’s also interesting to me that the Medical Examiner in the Oklahoman from April 19th said VB died from mortal wounds. This makes me think that JK may have had injuries that with medical care or not being buried, she may have survived? I feel PG seems too dedicated to the group to tell LE anything about what happened. I feel Cora T. may spill more about what happened. She obviously had to be upset and needed to talk about it or she wouldn’t have told her daughter anything.

 

[Artis]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1785675132716953876

To the victims families he said "Sorry for your loss"? It was hard to make out. What was his answer on saying something to his own family?

 

[Cool Cats]

To the victims families he said "Sorry for your loss"? It was hard to make out. What was his answer on saying something to his own family?

Victims:

"Sorry for their loss"

His family:

"I miss them .... I love them"

 

[Rixey]

I don't know that I am on board with the idea of the stock trailer to be used to move the Kia, I do think that it was to likely being used to help temporarily block the roadway to divert VB & JK and/or to transport them to the Beasly location.
But I am thinking it could also have been used to essentially block the view of anyone that could drive by in those few minutes. A stock trailer on that side road area would not be so unusual that anyone would have given it a second thought and they would just keep going, likely not even noticing anything about it and not seeing the Kia, etc. It would be like seeing a cab in NYC or an SUV at a little league game, just a part of the background scenery.