Possible Connections

[siriunsun]

There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root.
Henry D Thoreau


DeBardel*** and Krais** were both born in 1940. The TRM eyewitness said TRM was in his late 40's or 50 years old. I could be wrong and so could
MDietz47, as far as TRM is concerned; but believe he did see Sheila April 7. I believe TRM is part of this group.

You talk of a network, I believe it to be an organized group. The indicted prisoner although manipulative as well as manipulated, is not the leader. I feel the Lyon Sisters are truly gone.
Glad to see some of the members back. Wish some of the former members could return. I wholeheartedly agree the Eileen Kelly case is intertwined with the Lyon Sisters case.

There are so many differences between the two cases, though. I don't even think the FBI will consider looking at them as connected unless reliable testimony indicates it.

 

[steveP120]

There are so many differences between the two cases, though. I don't even think the FBI will consider looking at them as connected unless reliable testimony indicates it.

I only read a few newspaper articles on the Eileen Kelly case, and I agree there are many differences, but a few similarities.

The most obvious difference is that Eileen Kelly was a young 18-year old woman largely supporting herself working downtown as a secretary and not living with her parents. Even without speculating on the lifestyle of Eileen Kelly, she had a completely different life than that of the young Lyon sisters, and faced completely different people, men and risks.

The odds are 100 times higher that Eileen Kelly's demise was at the hands of someone she knew (however briefly and for whatever purpose) or a single sexual predator than a group. It's far more likely that the police never identified some "boyfriend" or "date" than she ran into some kidnapping ring.

That being said, as others have noted the police do or HOPE TO HAVE some DNA evidence in the Eileen Kelly case:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/dna-evidence-could-break-unsolved-1974-homicide/article/78154
(note: the title of the article overstates the existence of the DNA evidence, which is qualified later in the article)
and should look at all plausible suspects. If the police have enough DNA evidence for a profile, I am sure the DNA was entered into a DNA database, where the police look at virtually everyone, which would hopefully include the convicted sex criminals mentioned as suspects.

It's a long shot in my opinion, but it would not hurt for the police to conduct a "DNA-dragnet" on any suspected sex criminals in the area who may have escaped justice or were convicted of crimes in the 1970 or 1980s before their DNA, after conviction, was taken and entered into a database.

 

[siriunsun]

"It's a long shot in my opinion, but it would not hurt for the police to conduct a "DNA-dragnet" on any suspected sex criminals in the area who may have escaped justice or were convicted of crimes in the 1970 or 1980s before their DNA, after conviction, was taken and entered into a database."



No, a DNA dragnet would not hurt at all, but Maryland is a bit resistant to such things. Also, I have seen Maryland fail to work together with DC, VA, WV, and PA, resulting in crimes left unsolved for years. What I am not sure of is the reason why Maryland protects its criminals, however. Is it deliberate, or is it a misogynous interpretation of the Constitution and federal law?

 

[steveP120]

"It's a long shot in my opinion, but it would not hurt for the police to conduct a "DNA-dragnet" on any suspected sex criminals in the area who may have escaped justice or were convicted of crimes in the 1970 or 1980s before their DNA, after conviction, was taken and entered into a database."



No, a DNA dragnet would not hurt at all, but Maryland is a bit resistant to such things. Also, I have seen Maryland fail to work together with DC, VA, WV, and PA, resulting in crimes left unsolved for years. What I am not sure of is the reason why Maryland protects its criminals, however. Is it deliberate, or is it a misogynous interpretation of the Constitution and federal law?

Maybe a "DNA dragnet" was not the best choice of words by me, since in the past some "DNA dragnets" involved hundreds of men such as every male at a school or in a small town, which has privacy and constitutional concerns beyond my area of expertise. However the males mentioned by others - I don't want to mention anyone by name as being a possible murderer - number only a handful, 5 or fewer, relatives and associates of Lloyd Welch.

DNA can be obtained with a person's permission, a warrant, or by following them around and with out their knowledge picking a discarded cup, bottle or cigarette. The last way may take a day or two of police time, but if done without the person's knowledge there is little downside to suspects, who don't even know it happened, who may or may not be guilty.

Police often don't want to tip off suspects that they have or could have a DNA match, since a DNA match alone is often not enough to convict if the woman is an adult since the sex could have been consensual. For example IF Lloyd Welch was a DNA match with Eileen Kelly, the police would have to prove that sex was NOT consensual and another party did not commit the murder, which is harder to do 40 years after the crime.

 

[Richard]

What connections do you think exist between Lloyd Welch and Eileen Kelly's case? Are you suggesting that they knew each other?

I do not know if Lloyd and Eileen knew each other. What I meant by my comments is that there are more potential links between them than there might be between Lloyd and the Lyon sisters.

Lloyd and Eileen both lived in Hyattsville, not far from each other. Both were 18 in 1974. Both traveled between Hyattsville, MD and Washington DC by public transportation regularly (although we know that Lloyd was also fond of hitch hiking and walking).

It is possible that they might have met at school, youth activities, local parties, or dances, etc. in and around Hyattsville.

A major difference is that Eileen was a graduate of a Catholic High School and on a track toward a successfull career and independant life, while Lloyd was a HS drop out, a drifter in the making and pretty much a trouble maker and moron.

While they probably did not have much in common, it is quite possible that they knew each other on some level or had met at some point.

Knowing what actually happened to Eileen provides more potential evidence and insight into the type of person who murdered her, whereas the Lyon Sisters' disappearance remains unresolved, regardless of the many theories, opinions, or statements expressed.

The big question regarding a possible Lloyd Welch and Eileen Kelly connection should be; Did MCP investigators ask Lloyd about it?

 

[siriunsun]

I do not know if Lloyd and Eileen knew each other. What I meant by my comments is that there are more potential links between them than there might be between Lloyd and the Lyon sisters.

Lloyd and Eileen both lived in Hyattsville, not far from each other. Both were 18 in 1974. Both traveled between Hyattsville, MD and Washington DC by public transportation regularly (although we know that Lloyd was also fond of hitch hiking and walking).

It is possible that they might have met at school, youth activities, local parties, or dances, etc. in and around Hyattsville.

A major difference is that Eileen was a graduate of a Catholic High School and on a track toward a successfull career and independant life, while Lloyd was a HS drop out, a drifter in the making and pretty much a trouble maker and moron.

While they probably did not have much in common, it is quite possible that they knew each other on some level or had met at some point.

Knowing what actually happened to Eileen provides more potential evidence and insight into the type of person who murdered her, whereas the Lyon Sisters' disappearance remains unresolved, regardless of the many theories, opinions, or statements expressed.

The big question regarding a possible Lloyd Welch and Eileen Kelly connection should be; Did MCP investigators ask Lloyd about it?

My personal opinion is that Kelly and Welch did not know each other. At this point, and because of the nature of the scheduled trial, Welch's possible involvement in Kelly's case would be considered a completely different case, especially since it occurred in a different state. Virginia has no jurisdiction in Kelly's case. Since evidence connected to both Lyon girls has been found in Virginia, no connections will be drawn to DC or Maryland cases that have not been shown to be related. The defense may try it, but the judge has a responsibility to shut down such efforts, as things like that could taint the jury and pervert justice.

By "MCP", I'm assuming that you mean Montgomery County Police. Why would Montgomery County Police ask Lloyd Lee Welch about a Prince Georges County or a District of Columbia case? Charges in our justice system are not filed that way. Prince Georges County and the District have the responsibility of filing their own charges. If another jurisdiction were to do that for them, it would be a reason for dismissal of the case, based on conflicts of interest.

 

[Richard]

This case is fraught with jurisdictional issues. However, that has never stopped MCP from looking in Prince Georges County for answers. After all, Lloyd Welch lived in PG County. This is a multi-jurisdictional case all around.

Regarding the Eileen Kelly case, Washington DC Metropolitan Police are investigating, as were Prince Georges County Police origionally. Cooperation among all the separate jurisdictions' police happens all the time.

 

[steveP120]

I do not know if Lloyd and Eileen knew each other. What I meant by my comments is that there are more potential links between them than there might be between Lloyd and the Lyon sisters.

Lloyd and Eileen both lived in Hyattsville, not far from each other. Both were 18 in 1974. Both traveled between Hyattsville, MD and Washington DC by public transportation regularly (although we know that Lloyd was also fond of hitch hiking and walking).

I believe Lloyd mostly traveled to the northern most tip of Washington, DC - next to Silver Spring MD, while Eileen traveled in a different direction to downtown DC to her work.

I also think Eileen just moved into her own apartment in Hyattsville. I don't know where she lived with her parents I presume prior to turning 18. Eileen also, unlike Lloyd stayed in High School and was in Community College. I don't think Lloyd would be caught dead in school except to look at kids.

Still, they could have known each other.

 

[siriunsun]

This case is fraught with jurisdictional issues. However, that has never stopped MCP from looking in Prince Georges County for answers. After all, Lloyd Welch lived in PG County. This is a multi-jurisdictional case all around.

Regarding the Eileen Kelly case, Washington DC Metropolitan Police are investigating, as were Prince Georges County Police origionally. Cooperation among all the separate jurisdictions' police happens all the time.

One of the multijurisdictional grand jury's tasks was to iron out all the jurisdictional issues, with which the case was fraught. Haven't there been other crimes, including murders, that have not been solved in a timely manner, because of lack of communication or cooperation between Maryland and Virginia police? The answer is yes. Eileen Kelly's case will have to be clearly shown to be related to the Lyon sisters' case before it can be brought up in court during LLW's case for any reason.

 

[Schipperke]

Found an interesting article this morning from UK regarding Oakland County Child Killings

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Case-frightening-history-child-sex-abuse.html
Friday, Jan 29th 2016
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[h=1]Inmate, 70, linked to unsolved child rapes and murders in 1970s after breakthrough in DNA technology has horrifying history of sex abuse[/h]

 

[Schipperke]

Found another interesting article. This time an arrest in California with connections on the east coast and in Louisiana.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...minal-Sexual-Conduct-Cold-Case-366624481.html

[h=1]Former TV Personality 'Mr. Wonder' Arrested After Nearly 4 Decades on Child Sex Abuse Charges: Officials[/h][h=2]Frank Selas, known by his television name, "Mr. Wonder," is accused of criminal sexual conduct with juveniles[/h]1/28/16

 

[zensiert]

I also think Eileen (Kelly) just moved into her own apartment in Hyattsville. I don't know where she lived with her parents I presume prior to turning 18.

Her obit stated she was from New Carrollton, MD, which is a few miles from Hyattsville. Perhaps this is where she had moved to her own apartment.

 

[steveP120]

Her obit stated she was from New Carrollton, MD, which is a few miles from Hyattsville. Perhaps this is where she had moved to her own apartment.

It could be that her apartment was in New Carrolton, MD, also inside the beltway in MD.
I really don't know that much about the Eileen Kelly case, and I don't think the police or public do either.
Often for college students or other young adults, one's voting registration and official drivers license and billing address remains their parent's address into their early twenties.

I think she would need more of a connection to Hyattsville MD, more than taking a bus there once to meet her father (and we are not sure she got to Hyattsville since she failed to meet her father) to make her a target of Lloyd or some larger gang - although one could have very bad luck and run into Lloyd the first time visiting Hyattsville.

Lloyd has not been accused of killing any of this victims other than the Lyon sisters, so it's uncertain, even doubtful that he is a serial killer, in my opinion. But if I was going to name some victim more his type, it would be that 15 year-old girl murdered behind the K-mart a few months later in 1975 also.

 

[Richard]

Found an interesting article this morning from UK regarding Oakland County Child Killings

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Case-frightening-history-child-sex-abuse.html
Friday, Jan 29th 2016...

Here is another link to a story about the Oakland Child Murders case:

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/birmingham/2016/02/18/oakland-county-child-killer-case-unsolved-years/80558358/

There are some interesting similarities between this case and that of the Lyon Sisters. I do not necessarily think that they are directly related, but the time frame, victimology, and potential motives are close.

Also, the subject of recent advances in dna forensics is interesting.

 

[foureyes]

As far as the time frame of the 1970's and the motive of sexual exploitation, I agree. Here are similiar newspaper articles as links.

February 5, 1974
CLEARWATER, Fla. (AP) - A Florida judge says he granted legal custody of two boys to an Ohio man who is charged with abducting them from a Virginia school (Mt. Mission School ) at Grundy, Virginia for underprivileged children.

School officials sometimes released boys to Daniel F. Bloch of Englewood, Ohio, who offered free airplane trips for disadvantaged boys. Judge Phillips told the newspaper he did not check with the school before issuing the custody order because “I’ve known Dan Bloch favorably for 15 years.” Bloch formerly operated a boys camp in the Gearwater area, the judge said. ……https://www.newspapers.com/title_1340/washington_ch_recordherald/

"Chicago pair held *advertiser censored* suspects tied to state camp By MARILYN WRIGHT May 18, 1977, Record-Eagle staff writer ' TRAVERSE CITY -- Two men arrested by Chicago police Monday in connection with a nationwide child *advertiser censored* and boy prostitution network have been linked to a children's summer camp in Michigan."During this same time period, police arrested the owners/directors of a summer camp near Yankee Springs Recreation Area, between Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo. Arrested were Dr. Lloyd Lange (42, a dentist) living in Park Ridge, IL, and John Bell (19), David Welch (26) and David John Berta (32)." ..." Gerald S. Richards, on charges of criminal sexual conduct with a 10-year-old boy. Pornographic material confiscated from Richards led police to suspect that North Fox Island, in Lee lanau County and Boys Farm, Inc., a rehabilitation center for runaways and juvenile offenders in Alto, Tenn., were being used as sites for. illicit sexual relations with and between children. " (North Fox Island)
https://www.newspapers.com/title_50/traverse_city_recordeagle/
or
http://www.leagle.com/decision/1979810584SW2d226_1800/VERMILYE v. STATE
running boys farm Inc. and profiting from sexual exploitation etc.

 

[zensiert]

Connection? No Connection. I read your post on William Welch, Rose, Luke and thought it to be informative, so I added informational links about Mt. Rainier, Maryland.
Many other Welch family members have resided in in Mount Rainier at one time or another, who have been in newspaper articles in 2014 speaking about Lloyd Welch Jr.
This is why I said my post was circumstantial.

Thanks for sharing. btw, you don't need to justify or defend your post. We actually never know where all the connections are to be found, but it doesn't mean we should ever stop looking. This thread has been up for 12+ years and I do believe that some of what has been posted here has contributed to piecing together the complex puzzle that we have a better understanding of today. I find that the information that members have shared here is helpful, even if it does not always point directly to or prove the "whodunit" of this crime. All of this collective information provides some historical, genealogical, sociological, and geographical perspective on what type of situation or environment would exist for something so horrible to be perpetrated by the lowest form of human animals. Most the members here post thoughtful information that is more interesting than the "true crime" crap that is pandered to the lowest common denominator.

 

[Richard]

Thanks for the recent posts. Just a note about Mount Ranier: It is a small city in Prince Georges County, MD which is located only a couple of miles west of Bladensburg and Hyattsville, MD. There might not be a direct connection with this case, but as has been pointed out, it is coincidentally close to other areas of interest recently mentioned.

Montgomery County, where Sheila and Katherine went missing in 1975, borders Washington DC to the north and Prince Georges County borders it to the east and south. Portions of both counties are within the Washington Beltway.

The earliest news reports and many subsequent stories about the Lyon case have included both counties. It was reported for instance, that there were many sightings of a "Tape Recorder Man" at malls in Prince Georges County at around the time of the girls' disappearance and a story related how one to three PG county men had been questioned early on during the investigation (April 1975). Later, in the early 1980's, Raymond Mileski of PG County became a person of interest and his Suitland, MD yard was dug up looking for possible remains.

There have also been other potential persons of interest discussed in these threads over the years who were associated in some way with Prince Georges County.

 

[Schipperke]

Richard, there are connections of more than potential persons of interest which are referenced here on VARIOUS other WS case threads on serial killers, and those connections took place years BEFORE Lyon girls disappeared. If you want direct links, PM me. I do not have the verified answer to where the girls are, who killed them, or why. Each link brings more questions than answers.

 

[Richard]

There are indeed more questions than answers in any number of these unsolved cases. I have posted a number of potential "persons of interest" and "possibly connected cases" over the years, not because I felt that they were all interconnected, but because of possible connections here or there between them.

In a case like that of the missing Lyon sisters, I have always felt that this was a crime which involved a level of "expertise" and certainly a level of evil not seen in most other crimes. For two girls to go missing from a crowded mall in the middle of the day with so many potential witnesses required something more than pure luck. The person or persons who took Sheila and Katherine had done similar abductions before and after 25 March 1975.

By considering other similar cases, and potential perpetrators a link might be found that could lead to resolution.

 

[Richard]

The following case is in all likelihood NOT related to the Lyon Sisters, but since you are interested in Mount Ranier, MD history, see the below link to a cold case from 1935:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ount-Ranier-Prince-Georges-Co-4-November-1935

Connection? No Connection. I read your post on William Welch, Rose, Luke and thought it to be informative, so I added informational links about Mt. Rainier, Maryland.
Many other Welch family members have resided in in Mount Rainier at one time or another, who have been in newspaper articles in 2014 speaking about Lloyd Welch Jr.
This is why I said my post was circumstantial.