Theories #1: What Happened to Jennifer Kesse?

[fridaybaker]

The part that makes me question the pj's on the bathroom floor is that they stated she was messy. I was wondering if the Pj's that were left there from before she went on vacation possibly?

The only problem I see with this is that she had some people staying in her apartment, I believe. It makes the PJ's before vacay seem unlikely, in my book.

 

[fridaybaker]

Didn't really follow the Ex boyfriend theory mainly because her brother dismissed it, however the only thing that stood out to me was that he went to the Blue Martini which is super upscale and over priced, didn't seem like a place to casually drink by your self if you aren't going with a group for a destination, great point made though..

Please accept my apologies if this has been discussed before, but do we know if he'd been at that place (Blue Martini) before? Maybe he's a regular with friends, so it was natural for him to go there.

 

[fridaybaker]

I find that part about the workers not responding or even rolling down their windows very very odd.

I live amidst a HUGE illegal population. Huge. Interactions are every day. While I can definitely see it happening that the workers wouldn't respond due to immigration status, my experience is that most, as in virtually almost all, situations, they would simply roll down the window and speak to the person inquiring. That said, who knows what the brother looked like. Maybe he drove a black SUV and had that "ICE" look about him, whatever that would be. In any other case, I think it's a long shot that innocent workers wouldn't respond to someone who doesn't appear threatening in some way. Makes me think maybe there weren't so innocent...

 

[fridaybaker]

BBM--this is interesting to contemplate.

I think they let crucial time pass in the very beginning of this case, but I do believe they eventually got around to investigating as thoroughly as they could.

From what I can gather, they did seriously interview her current boyfriend and even her brother and the two friends who stayed the weekend at Jenn's condo. Then there was the guy from the gym and as many of the workers at the condo as they could track down; people from her work place--and it went on and on.

Also all the tips and all the searches. Paper work really grows like a bad weed, and maybe they even beefed it up a bit for the documentary. Or maybe not.

I'm curious as to whether anything we have comes from LE, other than the video of the POI.

For example, I would like to know if Jenn's brother thought to get the license plate of that vehicle he pounded on. I think I read recently where some of the windows were tinted, so he may not have seen all the occupants. But even if LE could have found one person who had been inside that vehicle that day, they could have really applied pressure in an interview. They are tough guys that know how get the results they seek--they are not always the nice guys we see during a trial.

So, maybe they did and it amounted to a big zero. If there was anything at all to that, though--I would say the chances of Jennifer never leaving the complex are very high. However, that leads right back to--why would they need to remove her vehicle from it's parking spot?

I'm hopeful, but I'm even wondering what the new podcast can bring to light; or, will it just amount to underlining how fruitless this all is. I believe there is a tiny thread somewhere--in a tip or in a piece of evidence that was at first overlooked--that will begin an unraveling. That's what keeps me here, I guess.

In this case they would need to remove her vehicle to point away from the scene of the crime. If her car is in its parking space, it let's everyone know that the crime happened at the apartment. If the car is found somewhere else, that brings up many scenarios, such as the ones we are talking about here.

 

[Truth Prevails]

In this case they would need to remove her vehicle to point away from the scene of the crime. If her car is in its parking space, it let's everyone know that the crime happened at the apartment. If the car is found somewhere else, that brings up many scenarios, such as the ones we are talking about here.

Excellent point.

 

[grief2hope]

Very valid point! I posted some questions that crossed my mind a few days ago on this thread. If you have time, go back and look at them. Would like to hear your thoughts @fridaybaker

 

[grief2hope]

If the reason Jennifer's car was moved to Huntington on the Green apartments was to cause confusion it certainly worked.

Not only that the driver reversed the car into into the parking lot.
If I remember correctly he even made two attempts to get the car nice and straight.
Often people reverse park cars so they can make a quicker getaway when they leave. That didn't apply here.

I wonder what he did with the keys? Dumpster?

He didn't appear to be carrying Jennifer's briefcase either.

Very interesting point about the car keys and other items not being carried by the POI in the video.

 

[Myserty64]

The big blue I made was stating the car was reversed into the parking pace. One would think that after eleven odd years of thinking about this case I would know better.

Still, as I write this those missing keys are somewhere. They could be under 3 feet of soil but they are still somewhere.

I have always thought the POI should have been identified.
Even though the POI's face was obscured by fence posts there is still a 'look.' The clothing, the stride, the footwear and the part of the head that isn't obscured.
Surely someone looked at those POI pictures and thought 'hey, that looks like.........................'.

Obviously that hasn't happened. If perchance it has LE aren't letting on.

 

[kemo]

After following true crime for a while, I have learned that when someone is abducted by automobile, it is very often the victim's vehicle that is used. Also the victim is very often instructed to drive while the abductor threatens the victim wit a weapon. Unless there are more than one abductors, if the abductor drives, the victim Is disabled or restrained. It would be difficult to control an abductee while driving.

I have no idea if any records are kept but I suspect that the perpetrator is more likely to use the victim's car if the plan is for the victim to drive. Having the victim drive is the quickest and lest conspicuous way to carry out the abduction but there are obvious problems; the victim may attract Law Enforcement attention or deliberately get into an accident.

Disabling or restraining the victim works if the abduction site would provide enough seclusion so that the struggle would not attract attention and the abductor had sufficient size and strength advantage to gain the upper hand very quickly. Jennifer was big and fit, and, if the abductor is the guy in the CCTV, he was pretty short. One the would not have been able to handle her except with a gun.

Two guys might have been able to pull it off quietly and pretty easily. These things are usual solo jobs but tag teams have done this things as well. With two guys, it would be unusual for the victim to drive. It might be more likely they would use their own vehicle because of some disadvantages of having a vehicle that they would not know its level of reliability and, the big disadvantage: they would have to leave their own vehicle at the abduction scene and they would have to return to get it.

My guess is that it was one guy forcing Jennifer to drive at gun point but it could have gone down differently. However it happened, Jennifer's car was used.

 

[JnRyan]

After following true crime for a while, I have learned that when someone is abducted by automobile, it is very often the victim's vehicle that is used. Also the victim is very often instructed to drive while the abductor threatens the victim wit a weapon. Unless there are more than one abductors, if the abductor drives, the victim Is disabled or restrained. It would be difficult to control an abductee while driving.

I have no idea if any records are kept but I suspect that the perpetrator is more likely to use the victim's car if the plan is for the victim to drive. Having the victim drive is the quickest and lest conspicuous way to carry out the abduction but there are obvious problems; the victim may attract Law Enforcement attention or deliberately get into an accident.

Disabling or restraining the victim works if the abduction site would provide enough seclusion so that the struggle would not attract attention and the abductor had sufficient size and strength advantage to gain the upper hand very quickly. Jennifer was big and fit, and, if the abductor is the guy in the CCTV, he was pretty short. One the would not have been able to handle her except with a gun.

Two guys might have been able to pull it off quietly and pretty easily. These things are usual solo jobs but tag teams have done this things as well. With two guys, it would be unusual for the victim to drive. It might be more likely they would use their own vehicle because of some disadvantages of having a vehicle that they would not know its level of reliability and, the big disadvantage: they would have to leave their own vehicle at the abduction scene and they would have to return to get it.

My guess is that it was one guy forcing Jennifer to drive at gun point but it could have gone down differently. However it happened, Jennifer's car was used.

That Jennifer's car was moved and the driver walked back to her condo area would seem to lead me to think her car was used in the abduction. If that is the case, I would tend to think she was still alive when she was forced out of the car as we've never heard if there was forensic evidence found of a body being in care. Or at least LE has never released that info.

I tend to think it was one person, but that was risky if he had her driving.

 

[kemo]

That Jennifer's car was moved and the driver walked back to her condo area would seem to lead me to think her car was used in the abduction. If that is the case, I would tend to think she was still alive when she was forced out of the car as we've never heard if there was forensic evidence found of a body being in care. Or at least LE has never released that info.

I tend to think it was one person, but that was risky if he had her driving.

I know someone who was abducted at knife point and told to drive. She opened the car door and escaped while the car was moving slowly. Very quick thinking.

I agree with you. The perpetrator was on his way to somewhere he felt secure to do whatever he intended to do. He may have left her body at that place or transported her or her body somewhere else. There was no evidence of blood in the car, so unless she were strangled, and strangling someone bigger that you is not easy, her body was probably not transported in the car. I doubt a cadaver dog could respond without some minimal amount of decomposition. (Anybody know how long after death it would take for a cadaver dog to read a sent?)

If there were two perpetrators, they would have been able to dump her car anywhere that might delay it being found or they could touch it and destroy all forensics. This may indicate it was only one guy, or they didn't think of ditching the car further away.

 

[Truth Prevails]

In the first episode of Jennifer's podcast on Unconcluded, he mentions something that I hadn't heard. (Or forgot, if I had.)

Apparently, when Jennifer went missing it is believed she was wearing a diamond necklace with three stones, one of each representing past, present and future.

I would definitely have to put this information in the "Jennifer went missing on Tuesday morning" column. That's the longest column, but the time of her cell phone powering off is so important--as well as the cell phone the male friend of Jennifer's brother forgot at her condo. Can we confirm the two phones were powered off at the same time, or did the battery of the "forgotten" phone run out on its own?

I'm hoping for some great discussion on this during one episode of "Unconcluded". Looking forward to the new episode due out tomorrow.

At about 3:14 minutes in at the link below is where the diamond necklace is mentioned:
http://unconcluded.libsyn.com/

 

[marable]

I have wondered about this as well....I can just see a group of young men partying and walking all over the things in the bathroom floor all weekend....I would love to know from Logan if Jennifer's condo looked exactly as he and his friends had left it except for Jennifer's things from her trip????

 

[marable]

The time on the video was determined to be an hour ahead of the correct time by OPD....

 

[Truth Prevails]

I have wondered about this as well....I can just see a group of young men partying and walking all over the things in the bathroom floor all weekend....I would love to know from Logan if Jennifer's condo looked exactly as he and his friends had left it except for Jennifer's things from her trip????

The time on the video was determined to be an hour ahead of the correct time by OPD....

Glad to see you--I noticed you hadn't been in lately. Thank you for your valuable knowledge of this case, and for sharing it with us.

BBM - I second that.

I can hardly wait for the new segment of Jennifer's podcast from Unconcluded.

 

[JnRyan]

So I listened to Episode 2 of the Unconcluded podcast:

http://unconcluded.libsyn.com/episode-2-endpoints

The discussions blow away some of what we thought were 'facts':

- The 2 cell phones being powered off and/or batteries removed at 10:40 is in doubt. I know I saw this as supposedly a quote from Drew Kesse on the JenniferKesse guestbook, but per the interview with Joyce Kesse, LE has NEVER revealed to the Kesse's when they were shut off. 10:40 at night? Maybe. But it could really be any time from when Jennifer hung up with Rob at approx. 10PM to sometime the next morning. (A morning abduction is more likely.)
- It's been said in the media that Jennifer's brother Logan arrived at her condo at noon. Joyce Kesse confirmed he arrived at 3:00 PM. So the chance of Logan crossing paths with the person who parked the car now decreases.
- Maybe it was mentioned somewhere and I forgot, but Logan arrived at the condo with his friend Travis at 3:00 PM. Not that it is significant or has a bearing on finding Jennifer, but it is another hole in the reporting on this case as I don't believe it was mentioned anywhere. Who knows, though, Travis AND Logan could speak to the condition they left the condo in after meeting there. Also, wasn't Travis the one who forgot his cell phone?
- The dog that tracked the scent from HOTG to Jennifer's complex stopped at Jennifer's assigned parking space. (I've seen in some places that the dog went to the bushes under her condo, the condo door or the steps to up to her condo.)
- Joyce Kesse stated that there were residents in condos close to her car, but none of them heard screams.
- Per Joyce Kesse, the condo across from Jennifer's was unlocked.
- To be covered next time, Joyce Kesse has her doubts about the 5'3"-5'5" height of the POI.

So back to a morning abduction? That's bold if it happened around 7-7:30 AM. (Jodi Huisentruit was abducted in the morning, but it was earlier AND neighbors heard screams AND there were personal items scattered on the ground around Jodi's car.) There's no screams here and no personal items on the ground in Jennifer's parking spot. Was Jennifer disabled through some means? A stun gun doesn't usually disable someone and even a Taser has only very short term effect. Chloroform doesn't really work that fast, so there would be a struggle. To me that leaves blunt force trauma, but that's likely to leave blood and there is no mention from LE of finding such forensic evidence in her car. Of course a combination Taser and a choke hold might work and not leave blood.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Now, I want everyone to jump in here--but I believe it was indeed Travis who forgot the cell phone.

I'm so glad the "Concluded" podcast people have acknowledged all the confusing information available on this case. I was surprised that even Greta's info is in question.

Oh, well.

 

[JnRyan]

Now, I want everyone to jump in here--but I believe it was indeed Travis who forgot the cell phone.

I'm so glad the "Concluded" podcast people have acknowledged all the confusing information available on this case. I was surprised that even Greta's info is in question.

Oh, well.

Absolutely! Some of these alleged 'facts' need to be verified. Now I'm waiting to see what is said about the car parking surveillance video. We've already heard on here that the POI isn't necessarily wearing a white shirt and white pants. Now the possible height of the POI may be questioned as well. (Like some of us on here haven't questioned that as well.)

 

[Truth Prevails]

So I listened to Episode 2 of the Unconcluded podcast:

http://unconcluded.libsyn.com/episode-2-endpoints

The discussions blow away some of what we thought were 'facts':

Yes, it sure did. I went back and listened to it for a 2nd time to get things to settle better.

- The 2 cell phones being powered off and/or batteries removed at 10:40 is in doubt. I know I saw this as supposedly a quote from Drew Kesse on the JenniferKesse guestbook, but per the interview with Joyce Kesse, LE has NEVER revealed to the Kesse's when they were shut off. 10:40 at night? Maybe. But it could really be any time from when Jennifer hung up with Rob at approx. 10PM to sometime the next morning. (A morning abduction is more likely.)

But at least we have confirmation that the 2 cell phones were powered off and/or their batteries were removed at the same time. Prior to the podcast, it was often debated as to whether only Jennifer's cell phone was powered off and/or the battery removed [at 10:40 PM]; leaving the battery of Travis' cell phone to eventually deplete from lack of power the next day. Even totally discounting the time, I still think the 2 phones being powered down and/or having their batteries removed at the same time is an important clue. How many people knew about that second cell phone? I suppose she could have had them both together in her briefcase or purse, so if the perpetrator thought to look for one, he would have found them both.

- It's been said in the media that Jennifer's brother Logan arrived at her condo at noon. Joyce Kesse confirmed he arrived at 3:00 PM. So the chance of Logan crossing paths with the person who parked the car now decreases.

Agreed. Also, she mentioned that Mr. Kesse and herself got there at 3:15. So, within 15 minutes of each other, not the hour I always thought and reported by Greta. I bet Greta has good sources, though. You know, I just really think we need to consider that--if only a little. Mr. & Mrs. Kesse are wonderful people and they raised a wonderful daughter--that is obvious. Something out of the norm happened in this case, though. Law enforcement must have something that makes them consider an evening abduction. Although, I admit I am now favoring a morning abduction myself. But if I knew what LE has, I might think different.

- Maybe it was mentioned somewhere and I forgot, but Logan arrived at the condo with his friend Travis at 3:00 PM. Not that it is significant or has a bearing on finding Jennifer, but it is another hole in the reporting on this case as I don't believe it was mentioned anywhere. Who knows, though, Travis AND Logan could speak to the condition they left the condo in after meeting there. Also, wasn't Travis the one who forgot his cell phone?

I hate to admit this, but I have listened to the 2nd part of the podcast twice and I still have not managed to hear the part about Travis being with Logan. Should I listen a 3rd time? (I'm sure I will in the course of two weeks, anyway.) As always, I would love to know Logan's first impressions of the condition of Jennifer's condo--and his thoughts on the Chinese food found in Jenn's fridge.

- The dog that tracked the scent from HOTG to Jennifer's complex stopped at Jennifer's assigned parking space. (I've seen in some places that the dog went to the bushes under her condo, the condo door or the steps to up to her condo.)

I've seen all the above, too; so, very glad for confirmation that Mr. Dog went to Jennifer's parking spot. I thought the guy from the Podcast had an interesting theory--the POI got off at a buss stop; walked to Jennifer's condo parking spot; abducted Jennifer in her vehicle; dropped Jennifer's car at the HOG; walked back to same buss stop. Interesting--and it would clearly show planning.

- Joyce Kesse stated that there were residents in condos close to her car, but none of them heard screams.
- Per Joyce Kesse, the condo across from Jennifer's was unlocked.

Unlocked and empty. I wonder how long before it was properly searched by LE--or if it even was.

- To be covered next time, Joyce Kesse has her doubts about the 5'3"-5'5" height of the POI.

So back to a morning abduction? That's bold if it happened around 7-7:30 AM. (Jodi Huisentruit was abducted in the morning, but it was earlier AND neighbors heard screams AND there were personal items scattered on the ground around Jodi's car.) There's no screams here and no personal items on the ground in Jennifer's parking spot. Was Jennifer disabled through some means? A stun gun doesn't usually disable someone and even a Taser has only very short term effect. Chloroform doesn't really work that fast, so there would be a struggle. To me that leaves blunt force trauma, but that's likely to leave blood and there is no mention from LE of finding such forensic evidence in her car. Of course a combination Taser and a choke hold might work and not leave blood.

I, too, am back to a morning abduction, at least for now. The only thing I can think of is the DVD player strapped in her back seat. Rob had just put that there on Sunday before she left for Orlando; or, at least, that is what I have heard, but could be wrong. But assuming it is so, I always wondered if she could have put all her things in the front seat, then opened the back door of her vehicle to either make sure the DVD player was still nice and tight, or to run it up to her condo. Could someone have struck her from behind, just hard enough to knock her unconscious but not break any skin? If they had managed that, maybe they could have pushed her quickly into the back seat, and driven off in her car--having a pre-planned destination close by to take her to before she had time to wake and defend herself. I don't know, though--the car was so clean when it was found. Not even one hair.

Something else that stuck in my mind was Mrs. Kesse saying Jennifer was wearing 3 inch heels. I had always heard she was wearing flip-flops and had put her shoes in her briefcase. I know heels make good weapons, but if a person was struck from behind, they may make a harder fall, too.

Also, I don't think the podcast touched on the alarm system in Jenn's condo. I have heard it was off. Of course, that could work with either an evening or a morning abduction, but is interesting to contemplate. If she intended to go to her car, place her briefcase, etc., inside, then return with the DVD player, might she have decided to turn the alarm on only after her last trip?

I can hardly wait to hear what Mrs. Kesse's has to say about the height of the POI. It's interesting to note that it has been said that Jennifer's car seat was found pulled to a forward position--so it was as if a person shorter than Jennifer had last driven it. Apparently, that was taken into account when estimating the height of the POI. I kind of call that possible bull because the POI had 32 seconds to wipe a few final things and pull the seat forward.

Anyway, I'm glad the podcast is continuing to at least cover the video of the POI. It might get some fresh eyes looking at it and who knows where it could lead.

 

[Myserty64]

I posted these thoughts a week or so ago:

These thoughts are dependent upon the cell phones being powered off at 10:40pm.
Mr Kesse has stated this happened.
The only question I have regarding this is where did Mr Kesse get this information from? LE or another crime site?

A morning abduction appeals as the more plausible scenario.


What we really need is some info from LE not any second or third party.

The site where I first read about phones being powered off and a nighttime abduction strongly claims this information is correct.

After eleven + years all we really know is Jennifer's car was found at HOTG, the POI was captured by cameras as he walked away from said car, Bo, a bloodhound tracked a scent from the car back to Mosaic and Jennifer is still missing.

What does LE have that only the perpetrator would know?