Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #4

[Jersey*Girl]

debs, you're too funny!

 

[BondJamesBond]

Just a suggestion...

Delving into the chloroform via dryer sheets might be best served on the chloroform thread. FWIW, the title alone would tend to draw WS's w/ expertise in chemistry...and, making it would also make the info easier to locate later.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3035194&highlight=chloroform#post3035194

 

[debs]

Yeah, you're right, but I still had to ask as I'm wondering why the results of her competency evaluation weren't made public yet. Could that be b/c of HIPAA rules? If that's the case, I thought that once a person is incarcerated, civilian rules no longer apply and they have different rules to abide by. In which case, we should have seen the results by now. On the other hand, maybe they're waiting for guilt to be proven?

The only thing pertinent at the time of administering the psychological (not psychiatric) exam is to ascertain her ability to understand the charges against her and her ability to competently assist in her defense. It was determined she understood and that she could assist. Those facts were made public and anything else will remain in her file until such a time as it becomes relevant in her trial.

 

[Jersey*Girl]

The only thing pertinent at the time of administering the psychological (not psychiatric) exam is to ascertain her ability to understand the charges against her and her ability to competently assist in her defense. It was determined she understood and that she could assist. Those facts were made public and anything else will remain in her file until such a time as it becomes relevant in her trial.

Ok, got it. I thought it was a complete evaluation. Thanks for the clarification

 

[debs]

Ok, got it. I thought it was a complete evaluation. Thanks for the clarification

A psychological evaluation IS a complete evaluation. The only thing pertinent at the time was as to whether she could help with her defense, which it was determined she could. As I said, the rest of the results will remain in her file until trial, if needed. She is only an accused, not a convicted, prisoner.

 

[natsound]

I've pointed out previously that the forensic report did not indicate level of concentration. They simply said "unusually large" and "far higher than what is typically seen in human decomposition". Neither of those are defined. That is...does "typical" mean 10 ppm and "unusually large" mean 20 ppm? Those numbers are critical to know in order to eliminate dryer sheets and cleaning solutions.

Thanks for that answer. I've been asking that too. Even though we don't have an exact level, if the forensic reports said "unusually large" levels of chloroform, then that, coupled with the search for chloroform and the pic from RM's computer which KC may have seen, tells me that chloroform was used in the crime. It's not proof, but it's an excellent indication to me.

 

[Lanie]

I read somewhere that dryer sheets are nothing more than cloths soaked in fabric softner and that they contain chloroform. The HEAT from the dryer is what is used to disperse the chemicals onto clothing. That's where I think the chloroform came from. Isn't chloroform also found in human decomp? I would say that the two mixed together would probably produce high levels of chloroform.

If there was enough chloroform on one dryer sheet to produce higher than normal levels, just think about the poor people working in the dryer sheet factories, and the warehouses where pallets of dryer sheets are stored. There were also dryer sheets found in the front of the car, and no reports of chloroform found there.
JMO
Lanie

 

[debs]

If there was enough chloroform on one dryer sheet to produce higher than normal levels, just think about the poor people working in the dryer sheet factories, and the warehouses where pallets of dryer sheets are stored. There were also dryer sheets found in the front of the car, and no reports of chloroform found there.
JMO
Lanie

I dunno. There are days when I've washed and dried my bedding and all I wanna do when they come out of the dryer is climb into them and go to sleep........

 

[Lanie]

Thanks for that answer. I've been asking that too. Even though we don't have an exact level, if the forensic reports said "unusually large" levels of chloroform, then that, coupled with the search for chloroform and the pic from RM's computer which KC may have seen, tells me that chloroform was used in the crime. It's not proof, but it's an excellent indication to me.

I agree chloroform was an element in Caylee's death. I still don't think Casey made it or bought it, I think she stole it (maybe lifted it from the tattoo parlor) or was given it, though the search warrant for chloroform ingredients or reciepts kind of puts a dent in that theory.
Ricardo's computer pic was "Win her over with chloroform." Anyone who has ever looked around in a Spencer's has seen similar plaques, stickers, etc. The people have a 50's look about them, and the one that comes to my mind is "Beer. Helping ugly people get l**d since 1854" or some year. It may be in bad taste, but it's still a joke. Then I factor in Casey and Ricardo broke up in April, but she is still 'intimate' with him as of June 9th. This doesn't sound like the kind of relationship where the woman would see a pic on myspace that is clearly a joke, and start freaking out about this guy, who she is clearly willing to have sex with, chloroforming her so he can rape her. There were 2 online searches for chloroform before Caylee went missing. Chloroform was found in the trunk of the car. Decomp was found in the trunk of the car. Caylee was found dead. No physical trauma was found on the bones. Duct tape was found over her mouth area.
When the car was found, there were things in the back seat, there were things in the trunk, there was a stain which was making the car reek, there were maggots back there, ewww. I think that reasonably rules out Casey did a major clean-up effort. When LE took possession of the car, there was dirt, hair, stain, decomp, etc. found in the trunk. George used to work at and then own a car lot, it was stated he detailed the cars, it was just something he liked to do. My brother used to work at a car lot, and I have had my car detailed there, and he also did it at my house a few times. It was always spotless. I think that reasonably rules out George doing a major clean-up. I saw Cindy's house on TV. She works full-time. She also, under stressful circumstances, removed clothing and a knife from the car and washed it. I have severe reasonable doubt Cindy did a major clean-up on the car, either, as I feel it would have been a lot cleaner than what it was.
JMO.
Lanie

 

[Lanie]

I dunno. There are days when I've washed and dried my bedding and all I wanna do when they come out of the dryer is climb into them and go to sleep........

LMAO. You have a point, laundry always tires me out...
Lanie

 

[Steely Dan]

I dunno. There are days when I've washed and dried my bedding and all I wanna do when they come out of the dryer is climb into them and go to sleep........

Too true! :woohoo:

 

[ibyoungr]

respectively snipped.....

When the car was found, there were things in the back seat, there were things in the trunk, there was a stain which was making the car reek, there were maggots back there, ewww. I think that reasonably rules out Casey did a major clean-up effort. When LE took possession of the car, there was dirt, hair, stain, decomp, etc. found in the trunk. George used to work at and then own a car lot, it was stated he detailed the cars, it was just something he liked to do. My brother used to work at a car lot, and I have had my car detailed there, and he also did it at my house a few times. It was always spotless. I think that reasonably rules out George doing a major clean-up. I saw Cindy's house on TV. She works full-time. She also, under stressful circumstances, removed clothing and a knife from the car and washed it. I have severe reasonable doubt Cindy did a major clean-up on the car, either, as I feel it would have been a lot cleaner than what it was.JMO.
Lanie

Lanie, I posted this same thought earlier. ITA! I know we have not agreed on something of the theories.. but.. I am with you on this one!!

I really am wondering if Cindy cleaned the car so well.. then how come the maggots, dirt and hair was still in the car? I would think the report would have stated that the car appeared to have been recently cleaned.


In the beginning, I visualized Cindy "using the Bissell" to scrub out the trunk. The more I read about items in the car... the less likely I am inclined to visualize her, George or even Casey using chemicals to clean out the trunk. I now visualize.. the items being removed from the car by Cindy and the doors and trunk opened up to "air out."

Prosecution has evidently not released all of their evidence. I wonder if we are not seeing some reciept for an online purchase of chloroform?

My basic theory is she was suffocated in a rage. I also like JWG's theory of her left sleeping in the hot car in the garage theory. However, I need just ONE MORE PIECE of SOLID EVIDENCE and I will be sold on the chloroform. (container? scent on matteress?, reciept? rag?)

I wish an expert who has reviewed the documents would come on an explain.. at what level is the chloroform consider to be high...

Here is a transcript from NG. Keep in mind this is BEFORE the actual forensic results were released in a document dump and NG likes to exaggerate...
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0809/05/ng.01.html

GRACE: Let`s go to -- now, that`s a first. I`m going to an expert on this subject, when none of us are. To Jeff Flowers. He is chemical and technical director of Flowers Chemical Laboratories, joining us out of Orlando. Jeff, explain, would a -- just a nose test by a human detect chloroform in the car trunk?

JEFF FLOWERS, CHEMIST, FLOWERS CHEMICAL LABORATORIES: Probably not. These tests were conducted probably using gas chromatography analysis. So no noses were involved.

GRACE: Explain to me -- when you say how significant this is that the air, even the air in the car trunk was saturated with chloroform, what does that mean and why is that so significant to you?

FLOWERS: Well, chloroform is a very volatile chemical, but it is a liquid at room temperature. However, in a car trunk, it`s going to be sealed. It`s going to be not exactly air-tight, but it`s going to be close. And it would be retained on the surfaces of the rug and so forth that`s in the trunk.

GRACE: The fact that the air was saturated, what does that mean to you, evidentiary?

FLOWERS: The question that it brings up -- I mean, chloroform, of course, is an anesthetic. But it also acts -- it`s much more dense than air. So if a child was placed in the trunk and the room -- and the trunk sealed and it was saturated with chloroform from the rag that was used, there would be no oxygen at the bottom of the trunk.

GRACE: I don`t know what that means. You`re speaking to a layperson. As far as proving a case at trial, what does it mean the air was saturated with chloroform, even the air...

FLOWERS: It would be difficult to breathe in the trunk.

GRACE: OK. OK. How much chloroform would it take to cause the air in the car trunk to be saturated with chloroform?

FLOWERS: The liquid chloroform that would be present on the rag would be -- would continue to release itself as a vapor, and that would continue to push away the oxygen from the bottom.

GRACE: OK. Now I understand. Let`s go to Alexis Weed, our show staffer researching chloroform. Alexis, how difficult is it to buy chloroform on line?

ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE STAFFER: In fact, Nancy, it wasn`t difficult at all. Within a matter of about 10 to 15 minutes, I was able to conduct an on-line research and find chloroform and a vendor that was willing to sell it to me.

GRACE: Alexis, what kind of a search -- did you go to Google or Yahoo!? What did you plug in to pop up buying chloroform on line?

WEED: Nancy, in this case, it was a Google search. And I typed in "purchase chloroform," and that generated a number of chemical and laboratory supply companies, on which I clicked and followed links until I found one that was willing to sell the product.

GRACE: How much?

WEED: I could get anywhere from 100 milliliters all the way up to 20 liters.

GRACE: How much did it cost?

WEED: $63 for the 100 milliliters and upwards of $700 for 20 liters.

GRACE: Would they allow you to take a credit card, if you wanted to use a credit card?

WEED: In fact, that was the only way by which I could make the transaction go through. I needed to select a type of credit card, type in my name, the expiration date and sign an acknowledgement that I understood I was only using the product for limited purposes of research, development, manufacturing, and then I could complete my purchase.

I need to see evidence of this purchase! I do think Casey is capable of at ordering something on line.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Just a suggestion...

Delving into the chloroform via dryer sheets might be best served on the chloroform thread. FWIW, the title alone would tend to draw WS's w/ expertise in chemistry...and, making it would also make the info easier to locate later.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3035194&highlight=chloroform#post3035194

*[subliminal bump]*

 

[eddeva]

I forget where that's from. :waitasec:

i think it's from the jailhouse call where casey's focus is on getting tony's number.

casey - 'you don't know what my involvement is in (can't make it out)?'

cindy - 'casey,'

casey - 'mom'

cindy - 'no, i don't know what your involvement is sweetheart. you're not telling me where she's at.'

casey - 'b/c I don't &%^$*£! know where she's at, you're kidding me!'

blah blah blah

 

[Steely Dan]

i think it's from the jailhouse call where casey's focus is on getting tony's number.

casey - 'you don’t know what my involvement is in (can't make it out)?'

cindy - 'casey,'

casey - 'mom'

cindy - 'no, i don’t know what your involvement is sweetheart. you're not telling me where she’s at.'

casey - 'b/c I don’t &%^$*£! know where she’s at, you're kidding me!'

blah blah blah

Thanks, I think you're right.

 

[natsound]

I agree chloroform was an element in Caylee's death. I still don't think Casey made it or bought it, I think she stole it (maybe lifted it from the tattoo parlor) or was given it, though the search warrant for chloroform ingredients or reciepts kind of puts a dent in that theory.
Ricardo's computer pic was "Win her over with chloroform." Anyone who has ever looked around in a Spencer's has seen similar plaques, stickers, etc. The people have a 50's look about them, and the one that comes to my mind is "Beer. Helping ugly people get l**d since 1854" or some year. It may be in bad taste, but it's still a joke. Then I factor in Casey and Ricardo broke up in April, but she is still 'intimate' with him as of June 9th. This doesn't sound like the kind of relationship where the woman would see a pic on myspace that is clearly a joke, and start freaking out about this guy, who she is clearly willing to have sex with, chloroforming her so he can rape her. There were 2 online searches for chloroform before Caylee went missing. Chloroform was found in the trunk of the car. Decomp was found in the trunk of the car. Caylee was found dead. No physical trauma was found on the bones. Duct tape was found over her mouth area.
When the car was found, there were things in the back seat, there were things in the trunk, there was a stain which was making the car reek, there were maggots back there, ewww. I think that reasonably rules out Casey did a major clean-up effort. When LE took possession of the car, there was dirt, hair, stain, decomp, etc. found in the trunk. George used to work at and then own a car lot, it was stated he detailed the cars, it was just something he liked to do. My brother used to work at a car lot, and I have had my car detailed there, and he also did it at my house a few times. It was always spotless. I think that reasonably rules out George doing a major clean-up. I saw Cindy's house on TV. She works full-time. She also, under stressful circumstances, removed clothing and a knife from the car and washed it. I have severe reasonable doubt Cindy did a major clean-up on the car, either, as I feel it would have been a lot cleaner than what it was.
JMO.
Lanie

Spot on, Lanie! (haha, that's the new trendy thing to say.) I also remember the former homicide detective that's always on NG, the bald guy, saying don't mess with chloroform unless you want to kill someone. KC used a potent and lethal amount of chloroform to off her daughter. In the past (around March when the searches first started), she may have seriously thought about offing her parents too, but didn't have the guts to do it back then.

 

[abbra]

From the very beginning the family and defense have been trying to pin Caylees death on anyone else. Remember GA brought up Jessie G's name during questioning by police. Of course theres Zanny the Nanny, Now Ricardo, also under suspicion have been the uitility worker who called police about the garbage bag and I think LP took a lie detector test for the FBI-
There have also been a list of former friends of Caseys who suspicion has been cast on because of their association with Casey and other ficticious persons Casey has made up.

What I would like to know is how JB is going to pull getting his client off. It's been established that Jeff who worked at Universal only knew Casey in passing and never had a son let alone one named Zachary! Theres no such person as Juliette Lewis that worked at Universal that Casey spoke of. Of course we all know about Zanny and her gang that Casey blamed- No such people- no occupied apartment by a nanny- Caseys lies about working at Universal plus the other lies she has given....

Another thing Cindy and George Have got to know that Casey is lying just by police investigating the information that Casey has given them so far, finding it false.

This case is a fraud and everyone is jumping on the bandwagon for their five minutes of fame.
Keep Baez down in Florida. We already have enough incompetant shifty lawyers up here in NY. We don't need any more.

For the record I am surprised Mark Garagos hasn't jumped on the Casey Bandwagon the way he did the Scott Peterson Bandwagon.
Maybe he is waiting for an invite.

 

[natsound]

What I would like to know is how Jose Baez is going to pull getting his client off. It's been established that Jeff who worked at Universal only knew Casey in passing and never had a son let alone one named Zachary! Theres no such person as Juliette Lewis that worked at Universal that Casey spoke of. Of course we all know about Zanny and her gang that Casey blamed- No such people- no occupied apartment by a nanny- Caseys lies about working at Universal plus the other lies she has given....

Another thing Cindy and George Have got to know that Casey is lying just by police investigating the information that Casey has given them so far, finding it false.

snipped

The lies will not get her convicted of murder, nor should they. We hope the forensic evidence will get her convicted, but you ask how is Baez going to get his client off (or attempt to). Let's not forget, he has a dream team working for the defense. Their job is to poke holes in the evidence presented. Huge police errors came to light in the OJ Simpson case, and the world was shocked when he was acquitted amid such strong evidence. Let's hope and pray the same thing doesn't happen here. A smart jury will look at what the evidence says, regardless of the smoke and mirrors presented by Baez and friends.

 

[Marina2]

I didn't know whether to put this in the GVS thread, Questions thread, or the Theory thread. Opted for Theories.

I was reading through some GVS transcripts and came across this part where Mark Fuhrman is discussing KC text messages from July 16th.
I don't understand how he comes to the conclusion he does. He feels the body was moved. Why? For one, his math is wrong when he counts back 32 days from the 16th. When I count back, I come to the 14th. How does he arrive at his conclusion that the body was placed in the trunk after GA saw it on the 24th? For some reason he thinks KC's text stating that Caylee has been missing for 32 days supports that her body was moved between the 24th and 30th?
Sorry to bring up an old show but I want to understand how he arrives at this since he is an investigator and should be able to give good insight. If anyone can explain his thought process, please do.

VAN SUSTEREN: Mark, as you go through these text messages, what do you think?
MARK FUHRMAN, FORMER LAPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: Well, I think the most disturbing one, Great, for Casey Anthony, as she says on the morning of the 16th, Caylee has been missing for 32 days.

That means that the child has been missing, and we know the child is dead. That places the time of death squarely on June 16. There is no doubt now that that is the date of the death, and this is a corroboration.

And now you can go from that timeline, the 16th, and start putting together the body, the body that was already in the putrification stage of decomposition, was placed in that vehicle after George Anthony saw it on the 24th.

So between the 24th and the 30th, the child was moved from its original location after death. That's what the most important in this text message is to me.

Link to transcript 01/22/09:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,481851,00.html?sPage=fnc/ontherecord/caylee

 

[Rumpole]

I didn't know whether to put this in the GVS thread, Questions thread, or the Theory thread. Opted for Theories.

I was reading through some GVS transcripts and came across this part where Mark Fuhrman is discussing KC text messages from July 16th.
I don't understand how he comes to the conclusion he does. He feels the body was moved. Why? For one, his math is wrong when he counts back 32 days from the 16th. When I count back, I come to the 14th. How does he arrive at his conclusion that the body was placed in the trunk after GA saw it on the 24th? For some reason he thinks KC's text stating that Caylee has been missing for 32 days supports that her body was moved between the 24th and 30th?
Sorry to bring up an old show but I want to understand how he arrives at this since he is an investigator and should be able to give good insight. If anyone can explain his thought process, please do.

VAN SUSTEREN: Mark, as you go through these text messages, what do you think?
MARK FUHRMAN, FORMER LAPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: Well, I think the most disturbing one, Great, for Casey Anthony, as she says on the morning of the 16th, Caylee has been missing for 32 days.

That means that the child has been missing, and we know the child is dead. That places the time of death squarely on June 16. There is no doubt now that that is the date of the death, and this is a corroboration.

And now you can go from that timeline, the 16th, and start putting together the body, the body that was already in the putrification stage of decomposition, was placed in that vehicle after George Anthony saw it on the 24th.

So between the 24th and the 30th, the child was moved from its original location after death. That's what the most important in this text message is to me.

Link to transcript 01/22/09:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,481851,00.html?sPage=fnc/ontherecord/caylee

Doesn't make much sense to me.
I like Mark F. He does often seem to have good sources and tie info together well. Here he seems to be having a bad day? In fairness to him, it was early on and we have all learnt a lot since.