UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[Alyce]

I read it the same way as you did, because the domestic violence was mentioned separately in the next sentence, as ‘an’ incident rather than an ongoing issue. Although it would be useful to know the exact wording the judge used.

The couple went on to have three more children, but all four were taken into care after a judge concluded that their living arrangements fell “well below” what a reasonable parent would be expected to provide and noted an incident of domestic violence between the parents, the court heard.

I agree with you. The noted DV incident ( the only one that we know of ) happened earlier in the timeline I believe and was referenced as an additional negative factor, on top of the unsuitable living arrangements.

this is MOO only of course

 

[Alyce]

1. I suspect that there could have been conditions attached by the Trust/family to the purchase of a house. For example, the ending of the relationship with MG could have been a condition of CM being bought a house. JMO

snipped for focus

This fact was confirmed during CMs testimony.



On Thursday Ms Marten told the court that she came from a wealthy family. She said her three brothers had houses bought for them by the family trust.

But Mr Smith said she had also been offered a house in early 2017 but had declined it just before contracts were due to be exchanged.

He said at the time she had claimed this was “due to a progression in her career”.

Ms Marten explained that she had wanted to move to the countryside and therefore could no longer live in London.

But she said her family had not wanted to buy her a house while she was in a relationship with Mr Gordon.

I had to escape oppressive and bigoted family, Constance Marten tells court

Constance Marten has insisted she had to escape because of her “oppressive and bigoted family”, a court heard.

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[jackal67]

I read it the same way as you did, because the domestic violence was mentioned separately in the next sentence, as ‘an’ incident rather than an ongoing issue. Although it would be useful to know the exact wording the judge used.

The couple went on to have three more children, but all four were taken into care after a judge concluded that their living arrangements fell “well below” what a reasonable parent would be expected to provide and noted an incident of domestic violence between the parents, the court heard.

Yes I agree. To me the DV was a seperate issue.

 

[jackal67]

snipped for focus

This fact was confirmed during CMs testimony.



On Thursday Ms Marten told the court that she came from a wealthy family. She said her three brothers had houses bought for them by the family trust.

But Mr Smith said she had also been offered a house in early 2017 but had declined it just before contracts were due to be exchanged.

He said at the time she had claimed this was “due to a progression in her career”.

Ms Marten explained that she had wanted to move to the countryside and therefore could no longer live in London.

But she said her family had not wanted to buy her a house while she was in a relationship with Mr Gordon.

I had to escape oppressive and bigoted family, Constance Marten tells court

Constance Marten has insisted she had to escape because of her “oppressive and bigoted family”, a court heard.

www.telegraph.co.uk

What career !!!

 

[BreadnLumpit]

Snipped for focus.
1. I suspect that there could have been conditions attached by the Trust/family to the purchase of a house. For example, the ending of the relationship with MG could have been a condition of CM being bought a house.

Then why not just say so, both back in 2017 and in court?

 

[BreadnLumpit]

snipped for focus

But Mr Smith said she had also been offered a house in early 2017 but had declined it just before contracts were due to be exchanged.

He said at the time she had claimed this was “due to a progression in her career”.

Ms Marten explained that she had wanted to move to the countryside and therefore could no longer live in London.

But she said her family had not wanted to buy her a house while she was in a relationship with Mr Gordon

I read this as she refused to sign contracts on a London purchase (on the grounds of a progression of her career) back in 2017.

It seems then that, at that point at least, the trust were quite clearly prepared to buy her a house, regardless of her relationship with MG. If there were conditions attached to that purchase in respect of MG that caused her to back out, then surely she would have been vocal about that at the time? She doesn't come across as a shrinking violet.

IMO, the "family not wanting to buy me a house while I was in a relationship with MG" claim is only being made now because it suits her defence narrative of them against the world.

 

[jackal67]

I read this as she refused to sign contracts on a London purchase (on the grounds of a progression of her career) back in 2017.

It seems then that, at that point at least, the trust were quite clearly prepared to buy her a house, regardless of her relationship with MG. If there were conditions attached to that purchase in respect of MG that caused her to back out, then surely she would have been vocal about that at the time? She doesn't come across as a shrinking violet.

IMO, the "family not wanting to buy me a house while I was in a relationship with MG" claim is only being made now because it suits her defence narrative of them against the world.

Yes but did she have a career and how does living in A HOUSE STOP PROGRESSION?? Sounds like BS to me! They were living in a camper van and then a tent in Wales in later
2017 when pregnant with baby No 1

 

[BreadnLumpit]

Yes but did she have a career and how does living in A HOUSE STOP PROGRESSION?? Sounds like BS to me! They were living in a camper van and then a tent in Wales in later
2017 when pregnant with baby No 1

Yes ... if I had access to an eye rolling emoticon on Websleuths it would have been heavily employed after "her career progression".

She's barely had jobs, let alone a career. I suspect (and this is entirely conjecture and MOO) that what she was angling for, was the trust giving her several hundred thousand pounds so that she could buy premises, to set up some half cocked business, at some nebulous point in the future.

 

[Alyce]

Yes ... if I had access to an eye rolling emoticon on Websleuths it would have been heavily employed after "her career progression".

She's barely had jobs, let alone a career. I suspect (and this is entirely conjecture and MOO) that what she was angling for, was the trust giving her several hundred thousand pounds so that she could buy premises, to set up some half cocked business, at some nebulous point in the future.

does this help.....

 

[Parker Knoll]

CM has more issues than Vogue from what I can make out.
JMO of course !

 

[Scorpio63]

Baby Victoria would most probably be walking now, looking like her cute siblings

Those other children could one day know that they had a sister that died in the care of their parents. How either of the parents can live with Victorias death is beyond me

 

[kittythehare]

Ok ,So what did the Judge mean by living arrangements falling well below the standards that most reasonable parents would provide ?Anyone else have thoughts on the Judges comments?

Could be dangerousness, maybe a decrepit building or dangerous windows or lack of or an unsuitable garden, I'm thinking structural.. a house in poor condition..

 

[BreadnLumpit]

Could be dangerousness, maybe a decrepit building or dangerous windows or lack of or an unsuitable garden, I'm thinking structural.. a house in poor condition..

Those all describe a disgracefully large proportion of British housing stock, particularly in the rental sector. Overcrowding, poor ventilation, single glazed windows in rotting frames, black mould, draughty open chimney breasts, no garden. These are all common issues.

Unless it was the parents actively making the conditions dangerous, none of the above would be a reason for SS or a family court to remove children.

 

[Cardgame]

Those all describe a disgracefully large proportion of British housing stock, particularly in the rental sector. Overcrowding, poor ventilation, single glazed windows in rotting frames, black mould, draughty open chimney breasts, no garden. These are all common issues.

Unless it was the parents actively making the conditions dangerous, none of the above would be a reason for SS or a family court to remove children.

On that social services documentary recommended waaaay up thread, there was a child whose parents never bought him a bed. He was four or five I think.

The parents had their own bed, but he didn't sleep there. They had just never bothered to buy him a bed so he just fell asleep wherever, and they didn't care.

Social services told them to get a bed.

You could argue: lots of kids don't have beds. It's cultural to have a bed, etc etc. But when you saw the way they treated him, the lack of bed was symbolic of a wider neglect, emotional neglect as well as his basic needs not being met.

I wonder if it was stuff like that.

A different child was allowed to stay with her mother once the mother agrees to clean her apartment. The dwelling which was otherwise sound, had been allowed to escalate into an appalling and unhygienic state, TMI but they had started to take a dump in the bath because the toilet was not working.

The mother was clearly not coping, and was given support to clear and clean the accommodations so the child could return there. She was compliant however. If she had not been, and had, for example refused entry, then the child prob would have been removed because it was literally dangerous to live there.

 

[Cardgame]

I have no explanation why Marten seems bent on the kind of squalor usually achieved only by junkies or generational grinding poverty.

SBM

I agree.

Two theories of mine (total speculation JMO):

1. She felt unjustly treated by the trust (she gave evidence as such). JMo but this kind of living may have been a highly successful way for CM to extract money from them, even when they had laid out terms such as "no more mark Gordon". *Some* people, when they fall out with controlling family, get a job, but CM (according to her own evidence) seems to have believed that her only choices were penury or large trust fund payouts. Ie a massive sense of entitlement meant she was prepared to live in squalor in order to embarrass, coerce, persuade, those with the purse strings to release the readies. We know Guy Selliers rushed down to Wales and forked out a thousand quid when she was first in trouble with baby number 1. For example. MOO.

2. JMO , the tent living could have originally been for show. We know it was they themselves who alerted social services to the fact that they lived in a tent, in an attempt to get social housing. And by the time they went onto the downs "on the run" they were aware they had a massive audience. CM believed everyone knew who they were (!). Perhaps they thought they would be caught sooner and people would feel sorry for them. They lack all kinds of judgement. But once they committed to the tent and the baby died, they were utterly screwed.

<modsnip - mental health discussion>

JMO MOO.

 

[jackal67]

SBM

I agree.

Two theories of mine (total speculation JMO):

1. She felt unjustly treated by the trust (she gave evidence as such). JMo but this kind of living may have been a highly successful way for CM to extract money from them, even when they had laid out terms such as "no more mark Gordon". *Some* people, when they fall out with controlling family, get a job, but CM (according to her own evidence) seems to have believed that her only choices were penury or large trust fund payouts. Ie a massive sense of entitlement meant she was prepared to live in squalor in order to embarrass, coerce, persuade, those with the purse strings to release the readies. We know Guy Selliers rushed down to Wales and forked out a thousand quid when she was first in trouble with baby number 1. For example. MOO.

2. JMO , the tent living could have originally been for show. We know it was they themselves who alerted social services to the fact that they lived in a tent, in an attempt to get social housing. And by the time they went onto the downs "on the run" they were aware they had a massive audience. CM believed everyone knew who they were (!). Perhaps they thought they would be caught sooner and people would feel sorry for them. They lack all kinds of judgement. But once they committed to the tent and the baby died, they were utterly screwed.

<modsnip - mental health discussion>

JMO MOO.

Who is Guy Selliers and why did he rush to Wales? Not heard this before?

 

[Smccat]

Who is Guy Selliers and why did he rush to Wales? Not heard this before?

He is Constance's mother's (Virginie De Selliers) new husband.

 

[dotr]

Reminded of some old movie, where mummy is to marry another man, but is railroaded by her rebellious teenage daughter who has run away to the circus, imo.

Mother of missing aristocrat begs her to bring baby home

In the open letter her mum said 'I want to help you and my grandchild. You deserve the opportunity to build a new life, establish a stable family and enjoy the same freedoms that most of us have.'

metro.co.uk

Feb 7, 2023
''Mrs de Selliers writes: ‘Open Letter to My Darling Daughter Constance.
‘I know you well enough; you are focused, intelligent, passionate and complex with so much to offer the world.

So many of your friends have come forward to say such positive things about you, assuring us of their warmest love and support for you and your family.

‘You have made choices in your personal adult life which have proven to be challenging, however I respect them, I know that you want to keep your precious new-born child at all costs.

‘With all that you have gone through this baby cannot be removed from you but instead needs looking after in a kind and warm environment.

‘I want to help you and my grandchild. You deserve the opportunity to build a new life, establish a stable family and enjoy the same freedoms that most of us have.

‘Constance, I will do what I can to stand alongside you and my grandchild. You are not alone in this situation. We will support you in whatever way we can.''

‘I am ready to do what it takes for you to recover from this awful experience so you can thrive and enjoy motherhood.

‘I love you and miss you, Mum xx.’''

 

[Megnut]

Reminded of some old movie, where mummy is to marry another man, but is railroaded by her rebellious teenage daughter who has run away to the circus, imo.

Mother of missing aristocrat begs her to bring baby home

In the open letter her mum said 'I want to help you and my grandchild. You deserve the opportunity to build a new life, establish a stable family and enjoy the same freedoms that most of us have.'

metro.co.uk

Feb 7, 2023
''Mrs de Selliers writes: ‘Open Letter to My Darling Daughter Constance.
‘I know you well enough; you are focused, intelligent, passionate and complex with so much to offer the world.

So many of your friends have come forward to say such positive things about you, assuring us of their warmest love and support for you and your family.

‘You have made choices in your personal adult life which have proven to be challenging, however I respect them, I know that you want to keep your precious new-born child at all costs.

‘With all that you have gone through this baby cannot be removed from you but instead needs looking after in a kind and warm environment.

‘I want to help you and my grandchild. You deserve the opportunity to build a new life, establish a stable family and enjoy the same freedoms that most of us have.

‘Constance, I will do what I can to stand alongside you and my grandchild. You are not alone in this situation. We will support you in whatever way we can.''

‘I am ready to do what it takes for you to recover from this awful experience so you can thrive and enjoy motherhood.

‘I love you and miss you, Mum xx.’''

Subtext: just not with him.

Hard to watch your (adult) children hug the hard road when you wish you could encourage them elsewhere.

Those two "parents" -- they can buck the system, make a statement denouncing privilege and indoor plumbing BUT BABY VICTORIA DIDN'T HAVE TO DIE.

Their senses of love and loyalty are hugely skewed.

 

[porkypies]

Could be dangerousness, maybe a decrepit building or dangerous windows or lack of or an unsuitable garden, I'm thinking structural.. a house in poor condition..

I would imagine that to be more like their living environment, I think living arrangements would be about the way they lived, things like:
without hot water or heating - unwashed.
overcrowded, sleeping all in one room - no privacy.
not being properly fed or attended to - neglect.
no toys, books or stimulation.
left without parental supervision.
neglect of medical and dental treatment.
And all of this being a life-choice by the parents, and not the result of poverty or ignorance or unfortunate/accidental circumstances.
All a bit like camping really.