UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[Henrymoggington]

Mr Little said: “A freezing cold baby girl with just a single babygrow and one vest. No hat.”

It was no coincidence the only clothes found by police with Victoria’s body were those she was seen wearing on CCTV, he said.

He said the “freezing cold” baby was heard crying on two nights in January when it was “bitterly cold” and at least a week after Marten claimed she had died.

Constance Marten has told ‘big fat lies’ over baby Victoria’s death, trial told

Marten and her partner Mark Gordon, of no fixed address, deny manslaughter by gross negligence.

www.bracknellnews.co.uk

This really hits when you read it x poor Victoria, been failed so badly on the basics of being kept warm, safe and clean.

 

[Alyce]

Jury told couple’s four other children were ‘lawfully’ removed from parents​

The prosecutor told the jury that Marten and Gordon should not have concealed her pregnancy from the authorities, adding that their four other children were “lawfully” taken into care.
“They were not driven off grid. You must approach your determinations in this case not in some wild west Constance Marten world but in the real world,” Mr Little told the court.
“The obvious thing to do was to inform the authorities that she was pregnant. To engage with the authorities to ensure that they could have care for her, accepting past mistakes.”

Constance Marten trial: Baby died at centre of ‘toxic relationship’ jury told - live

Jurors are hearing the final pieces of evidence before they are expected to retire to consider their verdict this week

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

9 minutes ago

Today’s hearing has ended​

The prosecution will resume their closing submissions tomorrow.

Constance Marten trial: Baby died at centre of ‘toxic relationship’ jury told - live

Jurors are hearing the final pieces of evidence before they are expected to retire to consider their verdict this week

www.independent.co.uk

 

[kittythehare]

This is rather harsh. but mostly accurate from what I can glean.
A link above stated Victoria's nappy was dirty.
This was news to me..and alarming.
Mothers are encouraged to spend time with their deceased babies..
Could you do that and not change it's nappy?
Even though the baby is dead?
Would you not perform that last rite for a child you loved?

Constance Marten trial: Baby died at centre of ‘toxic relationship’ jury told - live

Jurors are hearing the final pieces of evidence before they are expected to retire to consider their verdict this week

www.independent.co.uk

I completely agree it's an extraordinarily toxic relationship.
And I imagine they would immediately repeat their actions.
Have another baby and hit the road again..
JMO and it's not ideal to be following a trial from MSM sources.

 

[Maryanna]

Tom Little is going completely over the top.
Possibly the most interesting of the three closing speeches will be for MG. His counsel will probably say he HAS tried (through his representative) to counter the prosecution case in front of a jury rather than doing it in the police station.

 

[kittythehare]

Tom Little is going completely over the top.
Possibly the most interesting of the three closing speeches will be for MG.

Has he managed to prove any of the charges?
It's ultimately about proof is it not?
Are these not still allegations and suppositions?

 

[Kye Zeeb]

Tom Little is going completely over the top.

<Snipped for focus>
Yes he is. I was taken aback by the "big fat liar" comments. This sort of language belongs in a playground, not a court of law. Is he really the best that the Prosecution could manage? His approach in general seems to rely too much on speculation, rather than evidence. It's possible the trial could collapse at the jury stage as a result. JMO.

 

[CaptainNancy]

I thought I'd seen something, thank you! So it does have some kind of covering, but not a 'sub-zero sleeping bag'. The prosecutor says this, which I suppose is technically correct as it was just placed over baby Victoria rather than her being inside of it :

“This is the buggy. It doesn’t have a sub zero sleeping bag. It doesn’t have a muff with a zip.”

The footmuffs with those pushchairs are just cheaply padded nylon. This sort can be bought separately but are still not suitable for a tiny baby in a tent in January https://www.argos.co.uk/product/9445790

Especially as babies in their earliest weeks are not able to generate and maintain their own body heat.

As it happens I do believe Victoria died as a result of having been zipped with her head inside CM’s jacket, and smothered when an exhausted CM fell asleep and slumped on top of her.

Had she been warmly enough wrapped or in an indoor or heated dwelling she would not have had her head zipped inside a windproof (oxygen restricting) coat, and had her mother not been in a tent she would more likely have sat back against a chair or bed head.

Either way the environment she was in surely put her at greater risk. JMO.

 

[BreadnLumpit]

9 minutes ago

Today’s hearing has ended​

The prosecution will resume their closing submissions tomorrow.

Alyce, can I just thank you for all of your work and time in posting the condensed updates today.

I've been unable to follow the live feed today and I am so grateful to have your comprehensive round up to read, rather than having to visit umpteen msm sites and trawl through their whole news content. You are a star!

Edited to correct autocorrect

 

[CaptainNancy]

<Snipped for focus>
Yes he is. I was taken aback by the "big fat liar" comments. This sort of language belongs in a playground, not a court of law. Is he really the best that the Prosecution could manage? His approach in general seems to rely too much on speculation, rather than evidence. It's possible the trial could collapse at the jury stage as a result. JMO.

How do you mean collapse? The jury will find guilty or not guilty on each charge?

 

[kittythehare]

<Snipped for focus>
Yes he is. I was taken aback by the "big fat liar" comments. This sort of language belongs in a playground, not a court of law. Is he really the best that the Prosecution could manage? His approach in general seems to rely too much on speculation, rather than evidence. It's possible the trial could collapse at the jury stage as a result. JMO.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1365712719867972

Abuse of Process | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

 

[Nikynoo]

<Snipped for focus>
Yes he is. I was taken aback by the "big fat liar" comments. This sort of language belongs in a playground, not a court of law. Is he really the best that the Prosecution could manage? His approach in general seems to rely too much on speculation, rather than evidence. It's possible the trial could collapse at the jury stage as a result. JMO.

Showmanship.

 

[DianaWW]

The trial is not going to collapse because the prosecution has accused a defendant of lying. Showmanship is exactly right, and it happens in almost every trial I’ve ever followed. JMO.

 

[Alyce]

Alyce, can I just thank you for all of your work and time in posting the condensed updates today.

I've been unable to follow the live feed today and I am so grateful to have your comprehensive round up to read, rather than having to visit umpteen msm sites and trawl through their whole news content. You are a star!

Edited to correct autocorrect

Thanks. Am always happy to help if I'm around - have appreciated others doing same for me in the past.

 

[kittythehare]

Showmanship.

He's pushing it though, he clearly despises her and cannot contain it...
Appeal grounds?
Where's his evidence?
How thorough was the autopsy on Victoria?

 

[seasideForest]

I thought I'd seen something, thank you! So it does have some kind of covering, but not a 'sub-zero sleeping bag'. The prosecutor says this, which I suppose is technically correct as it was just placed over baby Victoria rather than her being inside of it :

“This is the buggy. It doesn’t have a sub zero sleeping bag. It doesn’t have a muff with a zip.”

It looks like a very thin inadequate covering for a newborn baby in only a babygro in wet winter weather in the UK. Even if baby Victoria didn't actually get rained on, the air is bone-chillingly damp in that kind of climate and a baby doesn't come into the world being able to deal with it.

I don't have children myself but have looked after friends' babies who had heated houses as opposed to tents to go back to. Even an older baby I would have had wrapped up better. MOO

 

[Cardgame]

So the crown is saying she told lots and lots of little lies - "confetti". He might do better if he could nail two big ones. Hopefully the rest of his closing speech will be well reported.

The idea that a witness is not reliable, let alone honest, is a bit weird. Surely reliability is a subset of honesty rather than the other way around?

I wonder whether the crown did a forensic analysis of the video of the defendants walking along after they dumped the buggy? If I were on the jury I'd want to assess the relative likelihood that Victoria was in the bag at that time, rather than being under MG's jacket. As far as we know, the crown didn't adduce such an analysis...but if they had instructed one and decided not to adduce it they still would have had to disclose it to the defence, so...?

She's not a witness though, she's a defendant.

And he definitely nailed those two big ones. It's obvious to anyone that they are lying about the car seat, the panic to evacuate the car didn't allow for the car seat to disappear from the scene or burn into oblivion. It's stupid to even say it, but that's what pathological liars do, they just say any old lies regardless. This builds into an effect of obfuscation and confusion, it's purposeful and a well known tactic of dishonest people, who are prone to criminal actions.

IMO i find it entirely legitimate to point out that she's a liar. She's telling the jury she smothered the baby, so the inference we can make from that is that she could well be lying about that too.

The baby could have been smothered on purpose. Or it could have been clear that she urgently needed medical attention for hypothermia, and her doting parents didn't seek it. She could have died in that bag.

There are many many much darker and terrible possibilities about what could have happened. The fact that CM is dishonest and demonstrably so is therefore extremely important. Surely?

 

[OrangeCash]

It looks like a very thin inadequate covering for a newborn baby in only a babygro in wet winter weather in the UK. Even if baby Victoria didn't actually get rained on, the air is bone-chillingly damp in that kind of climate and a baby doesn't come into the world being able to deal with it.

As a grown adult I wouldn't choose to go out like that myself, not for half an hour never mind to be out all day in it, with not much better at night. If I was choosing to live like that, I would be neglecting myself, my health, my emotional and physical needs. So how, if I'm inflicting that on someone else who is dependant on me and I have the means to change it, how is that not neglect? Genuine question if anyone can explain it to me please

MOO

 

[kittythehare]

It looks like a very thin inadequate covering for a newborn baby in only a babygro in wet winter weather in the UK. Even if baby Victoria didn't actually get rained on, the air is bone-chillingly damp in that kind of climate and a baby doesn't come into the world being able to deal with it.

I don't have children myself but have looked after friends' babies who had heated houses as opposed to tents to go back to. Even an older baby I would have had wrapped up better. MOO

Realistically the baby would have been dead in an hour if exposed to the elements wearing nothing but that.
I think it's safe to say she was not.
I believe she was held against her mother's breast almost constantly and her mother's clothes would have provided a thermal layer protecting her from the elements and her mother's body heat would have provided further warmth.
Including her head..

 

[Kye Zeeb]

How do you mean collapse? The jury will find guilty or not guilty on each charge?

I mean it could end up having to go to retrial. A weak Prosecution case (and, to be honest, a weak Defence case too) is less likely to result in the return of a majority/unanimous verdict. JMO
ETA perhaps "collapse" was the wrong word. I wasn't aware it was a legal term. I meant it in the sense that the trial might not successfully return an outcome that resulted in a conviction or acquittal.