UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[Baby baby Jane]

They didn’t leave because they were hoping to somehow get their 4 children returned to them. As far as I know (and if CM testimony is true) there are no travel restrictions for MG.

There are the practicalities of entering a country and becoming resident. Normally, a visa is required for a longer stay. If they want to be off-grid, and still collect funds from her trust/bank account it might just be harder to do. I do wonder if MG collects benefits or dole … harder to do from abroad.
They could just stay somewhere in EU, undeclared, but they are probably not expert in EU dodging/evading as they are in UK. The abroad off-grid maybe just harder to do … and they would stand out as foreigners.

 

[kittythehare]

Oh ok I swore I had read that though, when she was cross examined and asked what their plans had been and also travelling to ports? Will have to try and check back

Actually, I think I heard that in a podcast last night where she replied that she could not travelbecause of some actions her family had taken against her and that his passport had been taken from him? Maybe the 2nd or third podcast of her testimony?
I might have misheard it, I tuned out because I found it tedious.. I could be dead wrong and it was in reference to another time???
Anybody able to clarify?

 

[Nikynoo]

I thought she said that they couldnt leave the country because of a court order brought by her family? She said that that had been the plan but they couldnt travel? Also the part about finding someone to take baby V abroad somewhere?

I believe CM was grasping at straws to make her sound reasonable ( and persecuted). The court order would have been in respect to the children, not CM. I don’t know about MG. Unless he has committed an offence that we don’t know about, then he can travel if he has a valid passport. It could simply be that he does not have one because he didn’t renew it.

 

[Nikynoo]

It's quite a complicated topic I believe:

Technically being on the SOR doesn't, in and of itself, restrict travelling - but plenty of countries that require visitors to have a visa in order to gain entry will refuse to issue one to a sex offender.

Even those countries who are prepared to issue a short term visitor visa to a RSE are usually resistant to the idea of granting permanent residency.

Yes it is. Depends where you want to go essentially. I don’t think he would have a problem travelling in Europe. Obviously the US is a big no. If they did go to Peru, then that would be an option too.

 

[Nikynoo]

Actually, I think I heard that in a podcast last night where she replied that she could not travelbecause of some actions her family had taken against her and that his passport had been taken from him? Maybe the 2nd or third podcast of her testimony?
I might have misheard it, I tuned out because I found it tedious.. I could be dead wrong and it was in reference to another time???
Anybody able to clarify?

I heard that too. But I don’t believe her.

 

[kittythehare]

I heard that too. But I don’t believe her.

It made no sense at all..

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Actually, I think I heard that in a podcast last night where she replied that she could not travelbecause of some actions her family had taken against her and that his passport had been taken from him? Maybe the 2nd or third podcast of her testimony?
I might have misheard it, I tuned out because I found it tedious.. I could be dead wrong and it was in reference to another time???
Anybody able to clarify?

I’m no expert, but I do have experience of a vulnerable person whose decision making / care under court supervision.

At 18, parents lose “decision making / control” of a child.

Parents could not “take away” or “mark” her passport without some kind of court action. A person could physically remove it, but another can be applied for.

CM is paranoid, or has persecution issues.

 

[Maryanna]

This is a really useful Podcast, just out today ( as I said elsewhere, like buses, none at all or several at once ),

They go into great detail about the 5 charges, the order in which the Jury must approach them, what to discard if need be ( depending on whether they find guilty or NG on certain charges ) and the level that needs to be reached for Gross Negligence Manslaughter.

Also, of interest. The Jury have had their own room at the Old Bailey since the beginning of the trial. So they have been able to discuss the case amongst themselves as the trial progressed. Which hopefully is going to save some time when it comes to them going out to deliberate and reach a verdict.

Fresh From The Old Bailey: Special Season: The Constance Marten Trial - Episode 5 on Apple Podcasts

Show Fresh From The Old Bailey, Ep Special Season: The Constance Marten Trial - Episode 5 - 16 Apr 2024

podcasts.apple.com

Often even when jurors have their own room they don't talk about the trial much, or at all, before they're sent out. England has a very strong caste system.

You might get groups of two or three or four, perhaps from the same caste, who talk about trial-unrelated topics of common interest.

But this is an extremely unusual jury. I wouldn't be surprised if it has broken the record for the number of questions asked by jurors by a factor of 10. There may have been discussion along the lines of "I think we should ask X about Y" and "Do you now? Well I'm going to ask X about Z".

Perhaps leading figures if there are any will get a surprise when the first vote is taken.

^ Total speculation.

In the days when lots of people read printed newspapers, legal teams used to have a field day if a juror was spotted carrying a copy of this or that newspaper - Sun, Guardian, Telegraph, whatever - or if a juror said good morning to a trial participant in the lift.

 

[kittythehare]

I’m no expert, but I do have experience of a vulnerable person whose decision making / care under court supervision.

At 18, parents lose “decision making / control” of a child.

Parents could not “take away” or “mark” her passport without some kind of court action. A person could physically remove it, but another can be applied for.

CM is paranoid, or has persecution issues.

Who took his passport and why?

I don't know if she's paranoid or pretending to be or has good reason to be fearful of somebody else..

And I| may as well suck it up because I know I'll never know..

If there really was a lot of money involved and she went a tad further than merely disagreeing about her grandmother's will and the wishes letter substitution, there could be a story there.

The collection of burner phones is OTT.
They just needed sims but went the whole hog..

She simply must have had a psych assessment at some stage pre trial...
She looked pretty ill when she was arrested, I think the police would have insisted upon a medical examination..

I've gone from championing her because I felt so sorry for her to something like indifference but guilty in case she is actually very ill and I'm selling her short. I don't want to do that to her or myself.

 

[JennieM]

Often even when jurors have their own room they don't talk about the trial much, or at all, before they're sent out. England has a very strong caste system.

You might get groups of two or three or four, perhaps from the same caste, who talk about trial-unrelated topics of common interest.

But this is an extremely unusual jury. I wouldn't be surprised if it has broken the record for the number of questions asked by jurors by a factor of 10. There may have been discussion along the lines of "I think we should ask X about Y" and "Do you now? Well I'm going to ask X about Z".

Perhaps leading figures if there are any will get a surprise when the first vote is taken.

^ Total speculation.

In the days when lots of people read printed newspapers, legal teams used to have a field day if a juror was spotted carrying a copy of this or that newspaper - Sun, Guardian, Telegraph, whatever.

Caste?

 

[Maryanna]

Actually, I think I heard that in a podcast last night where she replied that she could not travelbecause of some actions her family had taken against her and that his passport had been taken from him? Maybe the 2nd or third podcast of her testimony?
I might have misheard it, I tuned out because I found it tedious.. I could be dead wrong and it was in reference to another time???
Anybody able to clarify?

I'm not sure what has been said about passports in this case, but passports can and do get withdrawn

The issuing, withdrawal or refusal of passports

This written ministerial statement was laid in the House of Commons on 25 April 2013 by Theresa May and in the House of Lords by Lord Taylor of Holbeach.

www.gov.uk

 

[JennieM]

Constance Marten not the 'monster' she has been labelled, jury told

The defence barrister describes the 36-year-old defendant as a "grieving" mother in his closing statement.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[OrangeCash]

Constance Marten not the 'monster' she has been labelled, jury told

The defence barrister describes the 36-year-old defendant as a "grieving" mother in his closing statement.

www.bbc.co.uk

I don't think many of us would doubt she's grieving, she lost a baby. It's not a reason to ignore everything else MOO

 

[crespo29]

Just imagine what is going on in the jury room, so much speculation here and much of it well informed. I am sorry if I have upset people on this wonderful site. <modsnip - sub judice> The case is very upsetting, baby Victoria is dead. The whole situation is very upsetting. Not sure there s anything useful I can say. Lets hope that the jury reaches a just conclusion.

 

[Cardgame]

Who took his passport and why?

I don't know if she's paranoid or pretending to be or has good reason to be fearful of somebody else..

And I| may as well suck it up because I know I'll never know..

If there really was a lot of money involved and she went a tad further than merely disagreeing about her grandmother's will and the wishes letter substitution, there could be a story there.

The collection of burner phones is OTT.
They just needed sims but went the whole hog..

She simply must have had a psych assessment at some stage pre trial...
She looked pretty ill when she was arrested, I think the police would have insisted upon a medical examination..

I've gone from championing her because I felt so sorry for her to something like indifference but guilty in case she is actually very ill and I'm selling her short. I don't want to do that to her or myself.

Yep. Join the club. And when I followed her testimony a third possibility: dark triad Psychopath. The grandstanding, the grandiosity, the history of being drawn to cults, the accusations of family members, the fighting over money, the enormous debts and financial incontinence, the self pity and inability to accept responsibility or truly empathize with another human being, along with the perception of he child as a possession that is 'hers' and if 'i can't have her no one else will'.

There's lots of research on these personality types, and IMO it is a very sad form of mental illness, but it does also predispose people to criminal behaviour which can be extremely damaging to other people. It's unclear whether MG is a stooge or an accomplice, but IMO she is not the victim we all assumed her to be.

I genuinely think the reason the manhunt happened in the first place was because the police assumed the same thing and were trying to save her life as well as the baby's. And then they arrested her, and it all went in the direction of "Daddy Bear" and "we won't tell you where the baby is" and they realised they had totally got it wrong.

JMO. mOO.

Oh and for me, a fourth possibilty : that her family are crazed illuminati who have set her up to make her look paranoid and crazy. I don't *really* believe this option, but I also want to retain an open mind about it because.... well because they are one percenters and who knows but they aren't pulling some strings behind the scenes!!!!!!!

 

[kittythehare]

Just imagine what is going on in the jury room, so much speculation here and much of it well informed. I am sorry if I have upset people on this wonderful site. <modsnip - sub judice> The case is very upsetting, baby Victoria is dead. The whole situation is very upsetting. Not sure there s anything useful I can say. Lets hope that the jury reaches a just conclusion.

Stick around, okay?
Nothing useful anybody can say during a trial..sub judice rules..

Could be even more gluey while we await a verdict,,
US trials are far more relaxing and there's always tons to sleuth, like right up to the 'roll up your sleeves dearie' in DP cases... UK and Ireland are the pits,,,

 

[bobbymkii]

Stick around, okay?
Nothing useful anybody can say during a trial..sub judice rules..

Could be even more gluey while we await a verdict,,
US trials are far more relaxing and there's always tons to sleuth, like right up to the 'roll up your sleeves dearie' in DP cases... UK and Ireland are the pits,,,

The lack of transparency we have in our criminal justice system here in the UK, really does terrify me.

 

[porkypies]

Yes - she can make her point in that way and then she can be cross-examined, and the jurors can make of her evidence what they will.

Tom Little could have made his own point without trying to deliver a sarcastic joke - or any other kind of joke.

He could have said but we are not talking about Bethlehem which has a warm climate, but Brighton in January where temperatures dipped below zero last year.

Part of rhetoric is knowing the occasion and the audience, and IMO Femi-Ola has outclassed him.

Enough of baby Jesus for me.
Bethlehem can and does have snow and CM just forgot to add that he also suffered from hypothermia lying in a straw-filled manger because, as we are all aware, he was the son of God who sent him down here to suffer for all mankind. She also forgot to mention that he was later crucified to death but subsequently rose from the dead (as one does) and ascended into heaven watched by a group of adoring apostles.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

From the link above.....

Marten endured five days of cross examination.

If she had answered the questions instead of giving unrelated lectures to the court, her testimony could have been completed in a far shorter time.

‘Endure’ is debatable as to whom was enduring what! Some may say everyone else had to endure lectures, word salad, diversions, deflections, and outbursts of snobbery. It’s all subjective.

 

[Telltale]

‘Endure’ is debatable as to whom was enduring what! Some may say everyone else had to endure lectures, word salad, diversions, deflections, and outbursts of snobbery. It’s all subjective.

From what's been published it seems more like everyone else had to endure her.

The lack of transparency we have in our criminal justice system here in the UK, really does terrify me.

It's not a lack of transparency. You can go sit in the public gallery. It's just reporting restrictions while the trial is ongoing. Once the verdict is reached and the reporting cannot have any influence on the trial, then all the salacious details will come out.