UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[kittythehare]

I would imagine that to be more like their living environment, I think living arrangements would be about the way they lived, things like:
without hot water or heating - unwashed.
overcrowded, sleeping all in one room - no privacy.
not being properly fed or attended to - neglect.
no toys, books or stimulation.
left without parental supervision.
neglect of medical and dental treatment.
And all of this being a life-choice by the parents, and not the result of poverty or ignorance or unfortunate/accidental circumstances.
All a bit like camping really.

I'm really reluctant to pursue this further because we are all just speculating.. we don't have the facts and it's wide open for interpretation..

 

[rockthecasbah]

SBM

I agree.

Two theories of mine (total speculation JMO):

1. She felt unjustly treated by the trust (she gave evidence as such). JMo but this kind of living may have been a highly successful way for CM to extract money from them, even when they had laid out terms such as "no more mark Gordon". *Some* people, when they fall out with controlling family, get a job, but CM (according to her own evidence) seems to have believed that her only choices were penury or large trust fund payouts. Ie a massive sense of entitlement meant she was prepared to live in squalor in order to embarrass, coerce, persuade, those with the purse strings to release the readies. We know Guy Selliers rushed down to Wales and forked out a thousand quid when she was first in trouble with baby number 1. For example. MOO.

Great theory. We don't agree with her choices but we can't have her living in a tent so we'll intervene.

 

[Nikynoo]

I live here. She blooody well does. I can hear how much her boarding school cost in the way she rolls her vowels.

It's not just an accent anyway, it's mannerisms, manners, vocabulary, aesthetic. She can dress like a binlady and use all the slang she likes. Any British person would clock her before she finished a sentence.

The class system is a thousand years old. It both doesn't matter in the modern world and permeates all aspects of culture and society. She can reject it all she wants, but she can't escape it and she definitely can't hide what peg she was born on.

Also it's easy to reject the elitist capitalist system when you have a trust fund paying out every month.

Her school was not expensive compared to others in the private sector in Dorset (where I live). I was actually surprised that she went to the school she did and not another that is more ‘exclusive’ nearby.

 

[Nikynoo]

Ok ,So what did the Judge mean by living arrangements falling well below the standards that most reasonable parents would provide ?Anyone else have thoughts on the Judges comments?

Uncontained domestic violence.

ETA after reading another post, perhaps they continued to move around a lot? I thought the children were removed because of DV though. It will be interesting to see whether more information is released on this point.

 

[Nikynoo]

Snipped for focus.
1. I suspect that there could have been conditions attached by the Trust/family to the purchase of a house. For example, the ending of the relationship with MG could have been a condition of CM being bought a house. JMO

<modsnip - mental health discussion>

I suspect your point in 1 is accurate. <modsnip - mental health discussion>

 

[jackal67]

Uncontained domestic violence.

ETA after reading another post, perhaps they continued to move around a lot? I thought the children were removed because of DV though. It will be interesting to see whether more information is released on this point.

The quote was from the Judge at the family court as to why the children were removed. Living arrangements and 1 incident of DV,

 

[Nikynoo]

The quote was from the Judge at the family court as to why the children were removed. Living arrangements and 1 incident of DV,

we only know what was reported. quite frankly, 'living arrangment and 1 incident of DV' is not enough. to take children into care. More detail is needed.

 

[jackal67]

I would imagine that to be more like their living environment, I think living arrangements would be about the way they lived, things like:
without hot water or heating - unwashed.
overcrowded, sleeping all in one room - no privacy.
not being properly fed or attended to - neglect.
no toys, books or stimulation.
left without parental supervision.
neglect of medical and dental treatment.
And all of this being a life-choice by the parents, and not the result of poverty or ignorance or unfortunate/accidental circumstances.
All a bit like camping really.

Yes I agree. Living arrangements the Judge said.

 

[jackal67]

we only know what was reported. quite frankly, 'living arrangment and 1 incident of DV' is not enough. to take children into care. More detail is needed.

Depends how bad the living arrangements were surely ? I had a cousin who had 4 children removed because of the filthy state of the house, Children dirty ,dirty clothes . She was told to clean up her act and she complied, Kids were eventually returned.

 

[Megnut]

we only know what was reported. quite frankly, 'living arrangment and 1 incident of DV' is not enough. to take children into care. More detail is needed.

Isn't it a case of he couldn't be around the children, she picked him over them, therefore the children were removed?

JMO

 

[Nikynoo]

Isn't it a case of he couldn't be around the children, she picked him over them, therefore the children were removed?

JMO

Yes, but only if he had reoffended imo.

 

[Telltale]

Her school was not expensive compared to others in the private sector in Dorset (where I live). I was actually surprised that she went to the school she did and not another that is more ‘exclusive’ nearby.

Eh I was being somewhat hyperbolic in my point that she doesn't have to do the BBC voice to telegraph old money posh af the moment she opens her mouth.

There's no conscious pretension in it. Family like hers don't try to appear upper class, they just are. The only time that sort gets self-conscious about their class status is when they're trying to hide it.

Of course I'm stereotyping, but from experience lol.

 

[Nikynoo]

Eh I was being somewhat hyperbolic in my point that she doesn't have to do the BBC voice to telegraph old money posh af the moment she opens her mouth.

There's no conscious pretension in it. Family like hers don't try to appear upper class, they just are. The only time that sort gets self-conscious about their class status is when they're trying to hide it.

Of course I'm stereotyping, but from experience lol.

If her voice is anything like the podcast actress, I would say she is very well spoken.

 

[Telltale]

Isn't it a case of he couldn't be around the children, she picked him over them, therefore the children were removed?

JMO

That's the logical speculation, but it's probably not part of his SOR. They had custody for a few years and he was a juvenile offender against adult women not kids. He probably did have SS on high alert for DV/coercion. Maybe police/SS got 3rd party DV/CA reports, but Marten stonewalled them, and the window was the first one she couldn't outright deny. (speculation)

I suspect their bad living conditions, (despite having house money) plus hostility towards SS (not cooperating/ disclosing/ hiding pregnancies/moving) played a big roll.

SS are much more willing to manage risk factors/people in the home if there's carer they feel confident will safeguard the kids, disclose further risk (DV/CA/CSA) and are trying to follow SS. If the kids are in a risky environment and don't have mitigating safeguarding/ transparency. Its a lot harder for SS to justify leaving them there.

 

[Nikynoo]

That's the logical speculation, but it's probably not part of his SOR. They had custody for a few years and he was a juvenile offender against adult women not kids. He probably did have SS on high alert for DV/coercion. Maybe police/SS got 3rd party DV/CA reports, but Marten stonewalled them, and the window was the first one she couldn't outright deny. (speculation)

I suspect their bad living conditions, (despite having house money) plus hostility towards SS (not cooperating/ disclosing/ hiding pregnancies/moving) played a big roll.

SS are much more willing to manage risk factors/people in the home if there's carer they feel confident will safeguard the kids, disclose further risk (DV/CA/CSA) and are trying to follow SS. If the kids are in a risky environment and don't have mitigating safeguarding/ transparency. Its a lot harder for SS to justify leaving them there.

I agree to some extent. I'm curious about being released from SS supervision in Wales and then the involvement with SS subsequently. Was it the window incident that started that involvement or was it something?

 

[Alyce]

The Crown Court
at Central Criminal Court

Daily Courtroom List for Wednesday 24 April 2024​

SITTING AT 10:30 am T20237104 GORDON Mark A 01MP1072723 SUSWM CPS MARTEN Constance 01MP1072723 DTA, Order made under Contempt of Court Act 1981 www.courtserve.net​

 

[Telltale]

I agree to some extent. I'm curious about being released from SS supervision in Wales and then the involvement with SS subsequently. Was it the window incident that started that involvement or was it something?

I've not looked deep into the SS timeline. Though I do know that local SS databases are pretty siloed. Like with the police, intel from MOP and local files have to be requested from the previous area.

It might just be enough to move out of county and without notice or indication of where they were headed/had come from. If they kept their heads down, SS might not link up previous reports and concerns for a while. Especially as they weren't tied to actual houses/addresses for some of that time.

I kind of wonder if Marten carried pretending to be a Traveller when it suited her. People are a bit more weary about prying into their families. Plus, for a lot of folk, it would explain their oddities. The semi-transient lifestyle, the places they lived, a lack of paperwork, distrust of authorities, generally being a bit standoffish and strange etc. it would be a fairly effective way to get the curious to stop asking questions. (Ain't saying thats accurate to how travellers live, but it does fit a lot of peoples stereotypes and she's tried it before.)

Pure speculation of course... but I am deadly curious to hear Martens best attempt at a Traveller accent lol.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

<modsnip - quoted post, response, removed for mental health discussion>

I know I am in an extreme minority here, but I do not feel as hateful towards CM as what seems to be the consensus.

<Modsnip - mental health discussion>

• I am not suggesting that both CM and MG achieved the standards expected of maintaining Victoria's well-being (in the eyes of government policy with much taken for granted). Still, I acknowledge they felt persecuted in having the children removed from their care.
• <modsnip - mental health discussion>
• I think the 'family' did not approve of MG, the union and the children and helped to manipulate SS and the family courts.

I have been waiting for someone to mention that it has been made fact that CM was followed, investigated and stalked by private investigators over periods of YEARS, not once, but TWICE, by both her parents.
The only media mention I have seen regarding this AGREED fact has highlighted how CM's parents had not admitted to hiring PI during their missing period. This highlight has taken any spotlight away from the big message here.


Of course, all of this is JMO.

 

[Telltale]

<modsnip - quoted post and response removed for mental health discussion>

I know I am in an extreme minority here, but I do not feel as hateful towards CM as what seems to be the consensus.

<modsnip - mental health discussion>

• I am not suggesting that both CM and MG achieved the standards expected of maintaining Victoria's well-being (in the eyes of government policy with much taken for granted). Still, I acknowledge they felt persecuted in having the children removed from their care.
• <modsnip - mental health discussion>
• I think the 'family' did not approve of MG, the union and the children and helped to manipulate SS and the family courts.

I have been waiting for someone to mention that it has been made fact that CM was followed, investigated and stalked by private investigators over periods of YEARS, not once, but TWICE, by both her parents.
The only media mention I have seen regarding this AGREED fact has highlighted how CM's parents had not admitted to hiring PI during their missing period. This highlight has taken any spotlight away from the big message here.


Of course, all of this is JMO.

I think she killed a baby.
What manipulation? The minute she gots hold of another baby she proved the courts, social services and her family right. She was not a safe mother and didn't make choices that prioritise her kids health or safety.

She says a lot of conspiritorial stuff. Most of it unbelievable. If her family did hire PIs to find her/the kids I find that entirely reasonable. Especially if she was dodging SS and the kids had no oversight until they were found. It's no secret SS is under resourced, so the family could have decided it was worth locating her for them.

<modsnip - mental health discussion>

I must say Gordon's strategy to disappear in this trial is working very well. He should have been a lightning rod for a villain narrative. Instead Marten has done all the talking and attracted all the commentary and the criticism. His role and impact on their choices has all but disappeared into the background. Despite their relationship having all the classic risk factors for high risk controlling DV: significant history of violence, decade age difference, quick successive pregnancies, cutting off family and friends etc. Sitting down and shutting up was probably his smartest play.

 

[Maryanna]

I think she killed a baby.
What manipulation? The minute she gots hold of another baby she proved the courts, social services and her family right. She was not a safe mother and didn't make choices that prioritise her kids health or safety.

She says a lot of conspiritorial stuff. Most of it unbelievable. If her family did hire PIs to find her/the kids I find that entirely reasonable. Especially if she was dodging SS and the kids had no oversight until they were found. It's no secret SS is under resourced, so the family could have decided it was worth locating her for them.

<modsnip - mental health discussion>

I must say Gordon's strategy to disappear in this trial is working very well. He should have been a lightning rod for a villain narrative. Instead Marten has done all the talking and attracted all the commentary and the criticism. His role and impact on their choices has all but disappeared into the background. Despite their relationship having all the classic risk factors for high risk controlling DV: significant history of violence, decade age difference, quick successive pregnancies, cutting off family and friends etc. Sitting down and shutting up was probably his smartest play.

"The minute she gots hold of another baby she proved the courts, social services and her family right."

Where are the SS (or for that matter her family) as actors in that train of thought?

It's not as if (and nor has it been alleged by the prosecution) that she went on the run purely because she likes going on the run.

<modsnip - mental health discussion>