UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

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Is the jury going out today? Did the judge say he was leaving the last 10 minutes of his summation for this morning, or might there be more?

Let us all wish mental and emotional strength to the jurors so that they consider the evidence properly, apply what the judge has told them about the law, listen to what other jurors are saying, and reach the right verdicts.

Which IMO should be acquittals of both defendants on all five charges.
 
Maryanna said:
Is the jury going out today? Did the judge say he was leaving the last 10 minutes of his summation for this morning, or might there be more?

Let us all wish mental and emotional strength to the jurors so that they consider the evidence properly, apply what the judge has told them about the law, listen to what other jurors are saying, and reach the right verdicts.

Which IMO should be acquittals of both defendants on all five charges.
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I agree with what you say, I have never understood why this case came to the Central London Courts or why the Prosecuting Services agreed for the case to go ahead after the post mortem results were known. However, it all comes down to what the 11 jury members think, I dont expect a verdict anytime soon.
 
Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc said:
<modsnip - mental health discussion>

I know I am in an extreme minority here, but I do not feel as hateful towards CM as what seems to be the consensus.

<modsnip - mental health discussion>
  • I am not suggesting that both CM and MG achieved the standards expected of maintaining Victoria's well-being (in the eyes of government policy with much taken for granted). Still, I acknowledge they felt persecuted in having the children removed from their care.
  • <moodsnip - mental health discussion>
  • I think the 'family' did not approve of MG, the union and the children and helped to manipulate SS and the family courts.

I have been waiting for someone to mention that it has been made fact that CM was followed, investigated and stalked by private investigators over periods of YEARS, not once, but TWICE, by both her parents.
The only media mention I have seen regarding this AGREED fact has highlighted how CM's parents had not admitted to hiring PI during their missing period. This highlight has taken any spotlight away from the big message here.


Of course, all of this is JMO.
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Yes - good point that they have admitted to hiring private investigators in relation to their daughter and there is no dispute about that. But note that as regards 2022-23 they haven't denied it. All they have done (going by published reports only) is to deny that they hired investigators to FIND her during that time. If they already knew where she was they wouldn't have needed to find her, but they may still have been interested in finding out what she was doing. Employing PI to spy on her during that period would be consistent with what they've said. It's unfortunate they didn't give oral testimony, so that the jury could hear from their own mouths what they were trying to achieve by hiring PI, going to court, and communicating with the SS if they did.
 
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Maryanna said:
Yes - good point that they have admitted to hiring private investigators in relation to their daughter and there is no dispute about that. But note that as regards 2022-23 they haven't denied it. All they have done (going by published reports only) is to deny that they hired investigators to FIND her during that time. If they already knew where she was they wouldn't have needed to find her, but they may still have been interested in finding out what she was doing. Employing PI to spy on her during that period would be consistent with what they've said. It's unfortunate they didn't give oral testimony, so that the jury could hear from their own mouths what they were trying to achieve by hiring PI, going to court, and communicating with the SS if they did.
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As a parent of adult children I still worry about them . Her parents had every right to be concerned for her welfare going on her past history and the welfare of their grandchildren
You may choose to see it as spying as maybe CM did. I see it as rightly caring loving Parents trying to locate their Daughter.
 
jackal67 said:
As a parent of adult children I still worry about them . Her parents had every right to be concerned for her welfare going on her past history and the welfare of their grandchildren
You may choose to see it as spying as maybe CM did. I see it as rightly caring loving Parents trying to locate their Daughter.
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There is a fine line though, and IMO the parents crossed it. Nothing like rolling up your sleeves and going to look yourself is there? In 2017 CM was 30, when should parents stop meddling in their childrens lives?
 
jackal67 said:
As a parent of adult children I still worry about them . Her parents had every right to be concerned for her welfare going on her past history and the welfare of their grandchildren
You may choose to see it as spying as maybe CM did. I see it as rightly caring loving Parents trying to locate their Daughter.
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I couldn't agree more.

I would think that most loving parents who had the financial wherewithal to do so, would hire a PI to make sure that their adult child was alive and safe - especially if that child had a previous history of getting themselves into difficult situations (like TB Joshua's cult).

For most people (who don't have their children removed from them or endanger them by larping as extras from The last of us), parenting, and all the concern and care that goes hand in hand with it, does not cease the moment their offspring turn 18 or leave home. My children are all in their 30's and I still look out for them. That's not meddling - they are adults and they make their own decisions without input from me unless it's asked for, but they also know that when the chips are down, someone has their backs.
 
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BreadnLumpit said:
I couldn't agree more.

I would think that most loving parents who had the financial wherewithal to do so, would hire a PI to make sure that their adult child was alive and safe - especially if that child had a previous history of getting themselves into difficult situations (like TB Joshua's cult).

For most people (who don't have their children removed from them or endanger them by larping as extras from The last of us), parenting, and all the concern and care that goes hand in hand with it, does not cease the moment their offspring turn 18 or leave home.
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Particularly when DV is suspected and given MGs previous convictions for violence against women. I think it is natural that a parent would be worried if they didn’t know where their child was regardless of age, I know mine would and I’m in my 40s! JMO.
 
Nikynoo said:
There is a fine line though, and IMO the parents crossed it. Nothing like rolling up your sleeves and going to look yourself is there? In 2017 CM was 30, when should parents stop meddling in their childrens lives?
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Were they meddling though? She may have been 30 but her behaviour was hardly responsible adult?
How could they look if they had no idea where she was?
Also CM had no hesitation in asking the family trust fund to bail her out did she?
If she truly wanted to be off the radar she should have worked for a living like most of us have to.
 
DianaWW said:
Particularly when DV is suspected and given MGs previous convictions for violence against women. I think it is natural that a parent would be worried if they didn’t know where their child was regardless of age, I know mine would and I’m in my 40s! JMO.
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Exactly this. I am sure if they had not bothered trying to find her and left her too it they would get flack for that too,
I am sure they were also extremely worried for the health and safety of those poor little babies too.
Would anyone be happy that their daughter was involved with an unemployed man with a criminal record for very serious crimes against women?
 
'Meddling' as in offering to buy your adult offspring a house?

If I had concerns about my grandchildren and / or concerns about my daughter in a relationship with a person who I knew had a conviction for violence and sexual crimes, or if I thought they may have been signed up to another cult, I might well try and find them or get try and information that they were safe.

We don't know why PIs were hired.
 
Maryanna said:
Yes - good point that they have admitted to hiring private investigators in relation to their daughter and there is no dispute about that. But note that as regards 2022-23 they haven't denied it. All they have done (going by published reports only) is to deny that they hired investigators to FIND her during that time. If they already knew where she was they wouldn't have needed to find her, but they may still have been interested in finding out what she was doing. Employing PI to spy on her during that period would be consistent with what they've said. It's unfortunate they didn't give oral testimony, so that the jury could hear from their own mouths what they were trying to achieve by hiring PI, going to court, and communicating with the SS if they did.
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They were trying to save her. Unfortunately, she doesn’t want to be saved.
 
Alyce said:
I can only see the Fiona Beal trial listed for tomorrow , so it’s looking hopeful that the Jury may have been sent out this afternoon ?
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I hope they haven't been. The judge was still summing up at 3.21pm. The message "Take as long as you need to" may not go in so well if a jury is sent out late in the day. Perhaps the case has been adjourned until Friday or later.

I wonder what the legal submissions are about...
 
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