WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #2

[snowmman]

it's funny JWarner used the word "magic" as Sluggo has used that word before.

In thinking about the profile Larry Carr proposed, of maybe a mid-level engineering manager (with other detail to fill it out)....this idea of getting other people to do the heavy lifting etc, maybe fits with that thinking.

i.e. someone used to getting other people to do things.

But then again, it could fit the idea of a military mid-level person.

Hey Jerry that reminds me....I was just vibing off your posts, would I be way off base if guessed retired Army or ??

 

[Sluggo]

What got me was "thick as my arm"? How thick was Tina's arm, at the wrist?

Look right [HERE].

There’s Tina showing you exactly how big her arm is AND how big around the battery was. Or maybe she was indicating how big she thought Agent Himmelsbach’s brain was.

Just had to say it, I tried to hold it in, but it came out anyway.



Sluggo

 

[snowmman]

I was just researching the standard sizes for highway flares. It's hard to say what's standard. 6 inches long seems kind of small, so I'm guessing she estimated wrong. It depends on the burn time, but this is one "standard" I found:
9 1/2 inches in length and three-fourths to seven-eighths inches in diameter.

In any case, one can see (if you bought these dry cells back in the '70s) that you could buy all the ingredients for Cooper's "bomb" in a single hardware store.

This was back in the day before Home Depot and all the chains took over.

Now Carr likes to push his theory of how Cooper wasn't a great planner.

Well, you might theorize he bought everything in a single hardware store, maybe in Portland or Seattle.

Wouldn't have been difficult to go around to the hardware stores and say "remember anyone buying a dry cell, wire and some highway flares in the last couple of days". There can't have been that many hardware stores at that time in the areas that were interesting.

I wonder if they did?

In fact, it's odd they didn't plaster that across the newspapers right away.

It's like if I robbed a bank with a clown mask and a rubber gun, well they'd be looking for places that sold that clown mask. (I saw one article recently where someone robbed a bank wearing a George Bush mask).

In fact, if they were really "generic" it might have been easier to find, than someone who had to steal dynamite or otherwise acquire it stealthily. Someone might not worry about procuring generic items.

And did they ask everyone selling stuff at the airport about anyone buying Raleighs? I have another whole post I could do about the whole smoking thing and questions I have around that.

 

[snowmman]

ONLY AS STHIK AS MY ARM AND 8 INCHES LONG

I was wondering if "like a flashlight battery" might have been a comment about the labelling.

If you go to sluggo's site, with the link he put above, it brings you to the dry cell example photos.

I remember the Ray-O-Vac blue/yellow dry cells from when I was a kid.

But Ray-O-Vac also made the typical D cells for flashlights..

Edit: found a 1972 version of the Ray-O-Vac D cell here. It says "Heavy Duty" ..maybe they had others that were more blue/yellow like the '45 version? dunno
http://www.rayovacindustrial.com/assets/images/timeline/1972.png

These are older versions: 1945ish

http://images.goantiques.com/dbimages/ODG1364/ODG136426347.jpg
or
http://www.wired.com/images/article/full/2008/04/ray_o_vac_400px.jpg


maybe "like a flashlight battery" was a description triggered by the labelling (blue/yellow RayOVac my opinion of most likely) not by the size...and she qualifies it with a size description.

Thoughts?

 

[Sluggo]

If you go to sluggo's site, with the link he put above, it brings you to the dry cell example photos.

The photo snowmman is talking about is [HERE].

 

[georger]

I am referencing a statement you made; “And the funniest part is this bit about 'if I touched these wires together it would go poof', said to Mucklow or Schaffner”.

There is no evidence that this statement was ever made. Maybe it was made, maybe the FBI is holding that information back for some reason. But as of now, it’s just not there. Not in the comm. transcripts, not in the crew notes, not in any FBI interviews.

I think it may have come from Max Gunther’s book; “D.B. Cooper: What Really Happened,” which is classified as fiction. As I have said before, I have never read any books on NORJAK in order to keep my thinking independent. I am re-thinking that decision, because it might help me understand where some of this stuff is coming from.


I understand your skepticism. I am the same. I believe the quote above is by Schaffner herself in one of her interviews that is currently on YouTube.
The 'In Search Of' tape? Or another. Schaffner was explaining to the
interviewer how Cooper showed and explained her his bomb. If Schaffner made this up or wasnt being articulate, that's another matter. But I would
never report something like this, as say from a 'newspaper' - never! The comment struck me as very odd if this came from Cooper because it goes
to his tecnical competence, something I have always been unsure about.

Another facet of Cooper's technical competence, or lack of same, was
his asking 305 to go nonstop to Mexico City under drag conditions and
fuel consumption making it impossible for a 727 to do - this expert on
aircraft? You would think an expert on avionics and the 727 would not
miss something so basic, if he had the technical knowledge some claim
he must have had.

The Schaffner quote attributed to Cooper follows in the same vein.

Jerry

 

[georger]

it's funny JWarner used the word "magic" as Sluggo has used that word before.

In thinking about the profile Larry Carr proposed, of maybe a mid-level engineering manager (with other detail to fill it out)....this idea of getting other people to do the heavy lifting etc, maybe fits with that thinking.

i.e. someone used to getting other people to do things.

But then again, it could fit the idea of a military mid-level person.

Hey Jerry that reminds me....I was just vibing off your posts, would I be way off base if guessed retired Army or ??

You would be very close. My father, my mother both WWII, all my uncles,
etc clear back to the Revolutionary War and the settling of 26 families in the Shennandoah Valley by mandate of the King. Manager types I guess?
Lots of teachers in the family. I was the rebel.

Jerry

 

[georger]

Look right [HERE].

There’s Tina showing you exactly how big her arm is AND how big around the battery was. Or maybe she was indicating how big she thought Agent Himmelsbach’s brain was.

Just had to say it, I tried to hold it in, but it came out anyway.



Sluggo

My dear friend, you are losing it! That is Flo Schaffner, not Tina. I get
the point. Look at that hairdew! A woman would be put in a ward for
that hairdew today. (We all looked like robots in the 50's and 60's.)

Seriously, you have to lighten up on the FBI and Himmeslbach. I'm rather
serious about this and maybe it's something we will never see eye-to-eye on. But, Himmelsbach was under ungodly pressure. He had a "role" to fill
which comes off a "bias". Himmeslbach was as human as you or me. You
dont think Himmelsbach and the rest of the guys would sit back and cuss
and swear and break down totally frustrated and mystified and wondering
which direction to turn next, as a hundred idiots are calling you up or pounding on the door claiming evidence or saying "it was me!". It would
drive most of us stark raving nuts. How would Himmelsbach have explained
himself to J. Edgar without assuming the role ?

Look at grim faced Bill Scott in the CBS interview at Reno. Bias? Himmeslbach was one step removed and he was going to have to live with Cooper for years.

I'm just trying to add perspective - and "illuminate the terrain in which we
find ourselves" looking in on this.

Thanks,
Jerry

 

[snowmman]

Has someone done the calcs on 727 flying to Mexico from Seattle with flaps at 15/gear down? (with no passenger load).

We're relying on the estimate of Scott? or who? at the time of the hijack. Could it have been a lie to force the stop at Reno? and keep it from going international?

Is there an expert that can work this out? I'm not sure why we assume the Mexico flight was impossible. Maybe Cooper was correct?

Just exploring all possibilities?

Evidently it was calculated or something by someone during the hijack that 170 knots might be optimum for fuel/distance tradeoffs with the gear down/flaps 15 configuration (my reading/interpretation of the transcripts). So maybe 170 knots could be used as the speed.

 

[Sluggo]

Seriously, you have to lighten up on the FBI and Himmeslbach. I'm rather serious about this and maybe it's something we will never see eye-to-eye on. But, Himmelsbach was under ungodly pressure. He had a "role" to fill which comes off a "bias". Himmeslbach was as human as you or me. You dont think Himmelsbach and the rest of the guys would sit back and cuss and swear and break down totally frustrated and mystified and wondering which direction to turn next, as a hundred idiots are calling you up or pounding on the door claiming evidence or saying "it was me!". It would drive most of us stark raving nuts. How would Himmelsbach have explained himself to J. Edgar without assuming the role ?

Look at grim faced Bill Scott in the CBS interview at Reno. Bias? Himmeslbach was one step removed and he was going to have to live with Cooper for years.

I'm just trying to add perspective - and "illuminate the terrain in which we
find ourselves" looking in on this.

Thanks,
Jerry

Jerry,

I respect your opinions, but you are right, maybe it's something we will never see eye-to-eye on.

You said; “But, Himmelsbach was under ungodly pressure. He had a "role" to fill which comes off a "bias"…” And I said: “I don’t know Ralph Himmelsbach, I’ve never met him, never seen him, and I’ve never read his book(s). Any opinions I have about him, come from statements about him, or statements by him, in other references.” And; “Himmelsbach was probably a good, hard-working public servant, who put in nine hard years on the case.” That's about as close as we come to seeing “eye to eye.”

If Himmelsbach was under ungodly pressure, that was his choice, he was a Portland, OR agent not a Seattle, WA agent. NORJAK is a Seattle case. He didn’t have to be as involved as he was.

All professionals have pressure and often it is of their own choosing. When I went to Three Mile Island to help recover the Nuclear Plant after MetEd tried to melt it like an ice-cream in the sun, I had pressure, but it was of my own choosing. I was still responsible for my actions there. If Himmelsbach couldn’t stand the heat, he could have gotten out of the kitchen.

I also disagree that he was one step away from Bill Scott. When Bill Scott did that interview he was a the end of a very long day, where, not by his own choosing, he had flown across the country, dealt with a madman on his aircraft (with a bomb), endured several hours of FBI debriefing, been given rigid instructions from his company as to what to say or not say, and had a hundred cameras stuffed in his face. Sure he was grim. That has nothing to do with Himmelsbach.

I just call them the way I see them. Maybe someday Himmelsbach will read my blog, call me on the phone, and say: “Sluggo, let me explain to you how it was.” If that happens, maybe I’ll change my mind, but until then, I’ll call it the way I see it.

I have absolutely nothing personal against Mr. Ralph P. Himmelsbach, former FBI Agent, but when you are the self-proclaimed lead agent on the case and write a book about it, you open yourself to criticism from all corners. That, also, is of his choosing.

Sluggo

 

[Sluggo]

Has someone done the calcs on 727 flying to Mexico from Seattle with flaps at 15/gear down? (with no passenger load).

We're relying on the estimate of Scott? or who? at the time of the hijack. Could it have been a lie to force the stop at Reno? and keep it from going international?

Is there an expert that can work this out? I'm not sure why we assume the Mexico flight was impossible. Maybe Cooper was correct?

Just exploring all possibilities?

Evidently it was calculated or something by someone during the hijack that 170 knots might be optimum for fuel/distance tradeoffs with the gear down/flaps 15 configuration (my reading/interpretation of the transcripts). So maybe 170 knots could be used as the speed.

No Lie!

In fact a rough calc shows they couldn’t even make Reno.


On page 104 of the transcript 305 says:
160 kts; 15 degrees flaps; gear down; and fuel flow @ 4000 gal/hr.

The 4000 gal/hr is probably higher that the actual fuel burn, but is conservative from the pilot’s point of view

Rough Calculation to empty:

The plane held 7680 gal 51,460 lbs @ 6.7 lbs/gal

So 7680/4000 = 1.92 hours or 1:55 hrs

1.92 hrs x 160 NM/hr = 307.2 NM

307.2 NM / 0.86897624 St mile/NM = 353.51 Statute Miles

Reno was about 523 St. miles from SEA (by air).

I don’t understand why a lot of people think he REALLY wanted to go to Mexico. You all know, I believe he just wanted to force them down V-23.

Sluggo

 

[Sluggo]

No Lie!

Quick addendum:

At 7:48 305 was advised: "You will not be able to get to Reno in that configuration, unless he is gone."

Fuel flow was reported as 4500 gal/hr at that time. Probably reflecting a change in flap configuration.

Sluggo

 

[Sluggo]

All,

I sometimes forget what I posted on which forum. For those who do not visit the Dropezone.com “Skydiving History and Trivia” forum, I have been working on (since January) a complete description (I have used the term 3-D model) of the 305 flight path.

I have amassed a large amount of data. Things like “time to climb” and “distance to climb” charts and other parameters for the Boeing 727-51. I have charted the Longitude, Latitude, and Altitude of each reporting point and built digital map files that can be used in Google Earth, MapSource, and other programs. I am now waiting for some info that Larry Carr promised. When I get that info, I can complete the work.

I think the end product will be informative (factually) if not downright startling.

Sluggo

 

[snowmman]

so your calculations show the plane should not have reached Reno then? I mean 353 miles (fuel) vs 523 miles (trip) is a big difference.

How did they reach Reno? Did they change the flaps or put the wheels up? I'm not sure why they would have calc'ed Reno as reachable now from what you say/show from the transcripts? I saw your post update, but now I'm wondering why they told Cooper they could reach Reno in that configuration, when obviously they couldn't? Did they know he would jump before Reno and they would change configuration?


Another question: Apparently Larry Carr did confirm that Bill R. slowed the plane in response to Cooper's problem with lowering the stairs. You agree? If so, that's a verbal exchange between the cabin and Cooper, we've not heard the details of, or where it happened. It must have happened after the aft stair lite came on, but before the last communication (the "No!" exchange?)

Here's the reference from Carr at DZ.com Dec 19, 2007 4:49 AM
he says "the captain" but I'm not sure he's correct about who's at the stick. I'm assuming Carr isn't propagating myth here.

"Within just a few minutes after takeoff, Cooper tried to lower the airstairs. We know this from an indication light in the cockpit. The problem was that the airstairs operate on gravity to lower. I guess Cooper thought when he started the operation the stairs would lower automatically.

After several more minutes, Cooper called to the cockpit and advised the captain he could not get the stairs to drop. The captain leveled and slowed the plane, after a few minutes he called back to Cooper and asked if everything was ok, Cooper responded and thats the last we ever heard from Dan."

 

[Sluggo]

so your calculations show the plane should not have reached Reno then? I mean 353 miles (fuel) vs 523 miles (trip) is a big difference.

How did they reach Reno? Did they change the flaps or put the wheels up? I'm not sure why they would have calc'ed Reno as reachable now from what you say/show from the transcripts? I saw your post update, but now I'm wondering why they told Cooper they could reach Reno in that configuration, when obviously they couldn't?

snowmman,

Several things could have affected the flight parameters.

The flaps back to 15 degrees. The higher altitude (My Calc was at 7000, they went to 10,000 and then to 11,000 after Red Bluff, CA) would use less fuel. Airspeed was Knots Indicated Airspeed (KIAS), wind conditions could have produced favorable conditions,(i.e. a 20 knot tailwind would have made their ground speed 190 knots) and the higher altitude would have dropped their fuel consumption rate.

That was just a “quick and dirty” calc based on what I could glean from the transcript.

And, remember the communication was "You will not be able to get to Reno in that configuration, unless he is gone."

The pre-flight calculations were nominal values based on 10,000 feet in a situation that a 727 doesn’t usually fly in (except when landing). The 4000 gal/hr and 4500 gal/hr were “real world” numbers at 7000 feet.

I really have no answer, just speculation.

To add insult to injury, I just noticed that they only had 50,000 lbs of fuel at taxi. That's only 7463 gal instead of 7680 gal.

I used the Boeing published capacities for a 727-100. The 727-51 is a 727-100 built specifically for Northwest. Maybe they had larger fuel tanks.

I'll try to get better data from Carr.

Sluggo

 

[georger]

snowmman,

Several things could have affected the flight parameters.

The flaps back to 15 degrees. The higher altitude (My Calc was at 7000, they went to 10,000 and then to 11,000 after Red Bluff, CA) would use less fuel. Airspeed was Knots Indicated Airspeed (KIAS), wind conditions could have produced favorable conditions,(i.e. a 20 knot tailwind would have made their ground speed 190 knots) and the higher altitude would have dropped their fuel consumption rate.

That was just a “quick and dirty” calc based on what I could glean from the transcript.

And, remember the communication was "You will not be able to get to Reno in that configuration, unless he is gone."


The transcript Im reading says that were cleared all the way to Sacramento with the comment: "That looks a little bit longer than Reno
but not much". They also considered Yuma. SEA had commented "with
gear down" you have "1000 miles max".

The comment you cite ("unless he is gone") came early on the ground
before or during fueling, as I recall, and was a rough estimate bypassed
almost immediately in lieu of conrete estimates of flight configs etc. The
citations I cite were in the air after refueling, if the distinction matters.

We know the flight went nonstop to Reno. That much is fact.

Jerry

 

[Sluggo]

The transcript Im reading says that were cleared all the way to Sacramento with the comment: "That looks a little bit longer than Reno
but not much". They also considered Yuma. SEA had commented "with
gear down" you have "1000 miles max".

The comment you cite ("unless he is gone") came early on the ground
before or during fueling, as I recall, and was a rough estimate bypassed
almost immediately in lieu of conrete estimates of flight configs etc. The
citations I cite were in the air after refueling, if the distinction matters.

We know the flight went nonstop to Reno. That much is fact.

Jerry

Jerry,

Pay close attention, I'm giving a test when this is over!


At sometime prior to 7:41 - last comm. with Ground Control.

At 7:37 - may have been wheels off – First comm. with Seattle Center.

At 7:40:06 - 305 verified altitude as 6500 feet and climbing, Cooper was trying to get the steps down. (Com with Seattle Center)

At 7:40:37 - 305 slows to 160 KIAS. (Com with Seattle Center)

At 7:42 – 305 reported 14 NM DME on V-23 with an aft stair light (Com with MSP Flt Ops).

At 7:44:22 - 305 holding at 7000 feet, back steps down, can’t climb in that configuration. (Com with Seattle Center)

At 7:45 - 305 reported 19 NM DME on V-23 (Com with MSP Flt Ops).

At 7:48 - the statement I quoted was made (Com with MSP Flt Ops).

At 7:48 - 305 reports beginning climb to 10,000 feet. (Com with MSP Flt Ops).

At 7:51:31 305 at 9000 ft. heading to 10,000 ft. (Com with Seattle Center)

At 8:12 - 305 reported oscillations in cabin (Com with MSP Flt Ops).

Sluggo

 

[snowmman]

Nice Detail Sluggo.

In my mind I'm overlaying a "rig up" timetable on that timeline.

Putting a rig on in an b727 aisle must have been a hassle. I'm tall and I hit my head on the overhead stuff all the time. Cooper may have been able to stand up straight. The NB6 looks like you can clip it around your legs, without having to put your leg thru a fixed loop. So that would make it easier to deal with. http://n467us.com/Photo Evidence_files/image086.jpg

So there's a balance issue. And he's using his hands so can't hold onto the neighboring seats. If the plane is climbing right after takeoff, it would be a hassle to stand up and get the rig on?

I'm wondering if Cooper actually rigged up while the plane was on the ground. It's a detail that's probably in the Tina testimony that we should be able to squeeze out of Carr. The rig-up timeline might serve as a "tell" on experience. And when did he open the chest and cut ropes and tie knots? I'm guessing that happened on the ground too. That would be even more of a hassle to do in a plane that's climbing? Especially if you're stressed/rushed thinking you've got to jump soon.

 

[Sluggo]

Nice Detail Sluggo.

Thanks snowmman, flattery will get you everywhere!

You know, all the dialog that goes on here is beneficial to the community as a whole. Putting that short piece together was VERY time consuming, but it makes it so much easier to understand what happened, and when it happened (what order it was in). Just using the com transcript document, I had to pull it from three separate logs.

So, I’ll ask the community a question. Do you believe it would be worthwhile for me to take all the (reliable) sources and construct a timeline?

If the community at large thinks it would be (worthwhile)… then I’ll invest the time required to do it. The end result would be too large for a post, but I’ll be glad to put it on my web site and that way the whole NORJAK community will have the benefit of a research tool that organizes all the NORJAK actions in a logical manner (instead of three (or more) disparate sources).

Please let me know how you feel, if it’s deemed worthwhile, I’ll get started right away and publish incrementally.

Thanks to all,

Sluggo

 

[snowmman]

obviously I vote yes for what you propose, Sluggo.

On another note:
Carr seems to be comfortable with information he has, to say that Cooper tried to stuff the money in the chest container, and when it didn't fit, went to the bag + rope solution.

So: that puts a whole new light on finding the "good" reserve cut open.

To get the money in a chest, he would have to take the canopy out. So it might make sense if he's planning on using it for the money, to use a "good" container, i.e. avoid a weird one with an X on it.

So then the money doesn't fit...the canopy's there on the floor, so he cuts up the rope (with unknown cutting implement).

There's been a lot of wind wasted on saying that by opening the "good" reserve for the rope, Cooper was clueless. But it sounds like it was opened for the money, then used for the rope.

When you work thru the behavior assuming use as a money container, it sounds a lot more rational.

What happened to the "X" marked chest? Who knows. But having it missing doesn't mean we have all sorts of information to intuit about Cooper. Remember than neither of the chests could attach to the NB-6 anyway, and the NB-6 didn't have cutaway capability.

So any linking of chests to beliefs about Cooper seems wrong.

And like I've said a lot, the last line of the stew notes says to me that Cooper was just interested, if necessary, in one chest chute. The stew notes are interesting, because there are a couple of references to chest chutes. None to back chutes. I wonder if Cooper had a plan to jump wearing the knapsack (desired) plus chest chute..but he didn't get a harness plus chest chute setup. Maybe he thought he could tear off the back containers, and just use their harness, with a chest chute, and wear the knapsack? That would make all the requests work together...

maybe one chest chute for use, and one for money container.
The knapsack request has really gotten me stuck. I've been wondering why.