Was a stun gun used in the crime or not

Was a stun gun used in this crime?

  • Yes

    Votes: 43 25.6%
  • No

    Votes: 125 74.4%

  • Total voters
    168
It was an Avalanche sweat shirt that was placed over her, I don't recall by whom? I believe it was Arndt? Here's a partial list of items taken in warrant...
Notepad-1 (1RAW)
Notepad-1 (2RAW)
Fibers from area by victim (1KKY)
Fibers from winecellar (2KKY)
Avalanche sweatshirt covering body (4KKY)
Blanket covering body (5KKY)
Wire near body (7KKY)
Fibers from under body (8KKY)
(BLACKED OUT ITEM)
White blanket in wine cellar (11KKY)
Pink Barbie nightgown from wine cellar (12KKY)
Broken glass from wine cellar (13KKY)
Hair fibers from floor of wine cellar (14KKY)
 
Now we have a source of comp. Has anyone read up on anything about the six year old that was tasered in FL. Maybe the reactions to this will give some insite on how a 6 year old would react. Did they infact scream or did they just fall?
I was just wondering if someone has any info on the kid in FL.

IMO
Kat
 
KATKAT19691 said:
Now we have a source of comp. Has anyone read up on anything about the six year old that was tasered in FL. Maybe the reactions to this will give some insite on how a 6 year old would react. Did they infact scream or did they just fall?
I was just wondering if someone has any info on the kid in FL.

IMO
Kat


Kat,

The police in Florida were apparenty justified in tasing the 6-yr-old boy. The child was in the principal's office and was deliberately trying to cut himself with broken glass from a picture he had broken in the office. He was wielding the glass to keep people away. In fact, he had already suffered several self-inflicted cuts when the cop shot him with an Air-Taser. A second officer lunged and immediately grabbed him to keep him from falling. The child was not injured by the brief 50,000 volt hit from the stun gun. There was no report of him screaming when hit.

All of theTasers the cops have been buying recently are of the 50,000 volt variety. They can be used with darts or as a normal stun gun. The amperage is very low, so they won't burn the skin so long as the hit is for less than a second or so. If the Taser is held against the skin for several seconds it will likely leave tiny twin rectangular burn marks on the skin, similar to what JonBenet had on her back. If held against the skin for more than about 5 seconds, the gun will probably leave an ugly burn injury similar to what JonBenet has on the right side of her face near the ear.

An extended stun gun hit (over about 5 seconds) is also capable of paralyzing the respiratory system and killing the victim by asphyxia. According to the autopsy report, JonBenet died of asphyxia, which was attributed to the AEA ligature device found around her neck, but the stun gun hit could also have killed her by asphyxia. IOW, a stun gun could be the murder weapon.

After the 6-yr-old was stungunned in Florida in October of this year, the Taser people said that the Air-Taser, when properly used, can be safely used on a child who is at least 60 pounds. JonBenet weighed 45 pounds, and the marks on her body would suggest the stun gun apparently used on her was not "properly used".

JMO
 
Speculation is now reigning in my thought process. DID the missing Christmas video show a member of the family unwrapping a stun gun? Did the traditional Christmas videos show adults receiving 'their' gifts" ?, or only the children doing their gifts?

Interesting information on the 6 year old little boy. Hoping that he receives help for whatever problems he has.

I could be led down the garden path thinking that JonBenet may in fact have screamed when a stun gun appeared, hit, then parents come to basement ?, after hearing 'the scream'.

WHO was holding the gun, IF IF IF there was one, given all of our previous posts on the Ramseys protecting and covering, AND LE not talking re: the legal process. Big hmmms here.


.
 
Camper said:
I could be led down the garden path thinking that JonBenet may in fact have screamed when a stun gun appeared, hit, then parents come to basement ?, after hearing 'the scream'.



Camper,

Yes Camper, that's quite possible. The parents could have heard the scream because THEY SLEEP WITH THEIR BEDROOM WINDOWS OPEN. Sounds from the boiler room are amplified to the outside by the duct going through the boiler room window. If Melody Stanton heard the scream from across the street, then the Ramseys could have heard it too from the outside. The Stantons and the Ramseys slept with their windows open.

Sound tests have always excluded the parents because their bedroom is the fourth floor up from the basement and all of the walls, floors and carpeting, etc., would absorb the noise -- but I don't think they have ever tested if a scream from the basement could be heard from the outside through the parent's bedroom window.

From the 1998 interviews:

JOHN RAMSEY: "I mean, we hear noises from -- when we hear noises, it was typically from outdoors from students."

LOU SMIT: "You can hear that from your room?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "We always slept with the windows open."

LOU SMIT: "How did you sleep that night, with the windows open?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Probably cracked. I always liked to have the window open. But it was winter night, so we cracked it probably."

LOU SMIT: "Where are the windows located in your room?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "This is the window I usually open. This is the window to {inaudible). They're crank out windows. If I would have followed my normal procedure, I would have cranked that open a little bit. In the summer time, we would have them open."

Please note that, after John begins to realize where Lou is going with his questions, the WINDOWS become just ONE window, cracked open a little bit.

JMO
 
Okay, my ex husband is a 200 lbs 6 foot police officer. He works out 5 days a week and he is pure muscle. Very, nice built. It is the policy of our police and sheriffs office before a law enforcement officer can be lic. to carry a weapon (stun gun, pepper spray) other than their gun of course it must be used on them.
So about 3 weeks ago he dec. to get his lic. to carry a stun gun since he is the primary officer that takes the mental pat. to the mental hospital and he often encounters people who are well lets just say not willing to go??? Anyway, he said after his stun that that is the most painful thing he had ever felt, and made the comment that first time offends for petty crimes should be tasered and told not to do that much like when you slap a childs hand and say no no. He was making a joke with a point. It is painful and he thought would deter crime. Now he is a big man and if it hurt him to the point that he said I can not think of how much it would hurt a child. He said he did not scream no one did, not because it did not hurt but because he could not and the other officers also said this.
Now for the marks, he did in fact have on his chest where he was tasered two red marks that stayed about 5 days. They did not look like bad burns, but somethiing you might get from your curling iron, the ladies know what I am talking about.
Anyway, I just thought you might be interested.
Also, he said he would not sug. this to anyone and would never do it again. He has to get re-cert for pepper spray every 2 years and he does this. Yes they spray him in the face with it. (wonder how I sign up to complete this task lol) He said he would not be doing the taser things again. If ya'll have any questions for him he said he would be glad to answer.

IMO
Kat
 
That was very interesting Kat, thank you!
It seems there is every reason, IMO, to believe Jonbenet had a stun gun used on her. If there were one set of marks ,one could think it a coincidence that they appeared as stun gun marks ,however ,she had a few sets of them, which limits the possibilities of something else.
 
sissi said:
That was very interesting Kat, thank you!
It seems there is every reason, IMO, to believe Jonbenet had a stun gun used on her. If there were one set of marks ,one could think it a coincidence that they appeared as stun gun marks ,however ,she had a few sets of them, witch limits the possibilities of something else.
Thanks Sissi, I have not seen the pictures of the marks on JBR, but the ones on the ex were little red circles. I dont know if she was tasered, or a stun gun. The ex was tasered.
IMO
Kat
 



Kat,

Thank you for that story about your husband getting tased. If he doesn't mind, I'd like to ask him a few questions.

1. The stun gun hit left two small round marks on your chest. What kind of shirt were you wearing and about how many seconds (less than one second; one second; two seconds; etc.) was the gun held against your chest?

2. Was the gun an Air Taser brand; and if so, were you shot with darts or was the gun itself held against your chest? If held against your chest, did you hold it, or did someone else hold it?

3. When other officers took the test, do you know if marks were left on them similar to yours?

4. Did the two little burn marks on your chest scab over before they eventually went away five days later?

5. Was one mark more pronounced than the other mark?

6. You said you were not able to scream. Did you notice any problem with the ability to breathe during A/O immediately following the shock?

7. Did the gun make any noise while you were being shocked? If so, about what was the noise equal to?

8. After being woken and shocked in bed with 50,000 volts, would you have been in the mood to quietly go downstairs with your intruder assailant, sit at the breakfast room table and snack on pineapple with him as he sipped on tea?

Thanks.

BlueCrab
 
BlueCrab said:
Kat,

Thank you for that story about your husband getting tased. If he doesn't mind, I'd like to ask him a few questions.

1. The stun gun hit left two small round marks on your chest. What kind of shirt were you wearing and about how many seconds (less than one second; one second; two seconds; etc.) was the gun held against your chest?

2. Was the gun an Air Taser brand; and if so, were you shot with darts or was the gun itself held against your chest? If held against your chest, did you hold it, or did someone else hold it?

3. When other officers took the test, do you know if marks were left on them similar to yours?

4. Did the two little burn marks on your chest scab over before they eventually went away five days later?

5. Was one mark more pronounced than the other mark?

6. You said you were not able to scream. Did you notice any problem with the ability to breathe during A/O immediately following the shock?

7. Did the gun make any noise while you were being shocked? If so, about what was the noise equal to?

8. After being woken and shocked in bed with 50,000 volts, would you have been in the mood to quietly go downstairs with your intruder assailant, sit at the breakfast room table and snack on pineapple with him as he sipped on tea?

Thanks.

BlueCrab
No problem, he said he would answer anything he could. I will be speaking with him tomorrow so as soon as he answers me I will let you know. By the way I think those are all very good questions, ones I would have not thought to ask.

IMO
Kat
 
Another question, when your ex 'took' the test so to speak, was the official tasering preceded by a complete instruction as to the effects that the taser would have on different sized 'people'?

Did he also receive written instruction as to the use of the taser gun, to sorta look at and study at leisure?

I am leaning toward thinking that 'someone' received a taser/stun gun for Christmas at the Ramsey household, and that was why the traditional Christmas video conveniently 'went gone gone'.

Another thought is that perhaps Burke had an overnight guest, that has been denied. The Stines lived approximately 6 blocks from the Ramsey home. Any guest could easily have been dropped off the next morning on the WAY to the airport.

I have a very social 10 year old grandson, plays hockey, soccer, has LOTS of busy little friends. They NEVER wish to part ways, and want to continue BEING together and continue their little boy fun. Alternating parents are always willing to see that their little one has fun, especially when their little face takes ona aw can I please Mom ?, look. Frequently to achieve the necessary 'happiness' for the children, parents will offer to drop the visitor off later or make arrangements so that everything happens for them.

Blue Crab This question is for you and anyone else who wants to answer also. IF IF IF a stun gun was used, who delivered the head crushing blow and why? IF IF GJ decided a youngun' accidentally did the tasering, HOW COULD they explain the crushed skull?

IF IF as LE has said that asphixia sp? was the cause of death, then the crushing blow was delivered to an already dead person. So no charges on that huh? Abuse of a dead person, by whom?



.


---
 
Camper said:
Blue Crab This question is for you and anyone else who wants to answer also. IF IF IF a stun gun was used, who delivered the head crushing blow and why? IF IF GJ decided a youngun' accidentally did the tasering, HOW COULD they explain the crushed skull?


Camper,

As you know, the dispute about which came first, the strangulation or the bash in the head, is an on-going debate. Either injury by itself would have killed JonBenet. But the autopsy report said the cause of death is asphyxia by strangulation "associated" with the head injury, and that is firmly supported by the petechial hemorrhages on the neck and the eyelids. A dead person can't hemorrhage, since the heart is not pumping.

Therefore, the hit on the head was probably staging, delivered after death, to make the crime fit a naive blood-thirsty foreign terrorist scenario as described in the ransom note. But again, the desired bloody effect wasn't achieved, at least in part because the heart wasn't pumping any blood.

As far as the stun gun injuries, if stungunning is what happened, and I think it did, then it wasn't an accident. A person isn't accidentally stungunned in three different parts of the body -- on the face, on the back, and on the lower leg.

With respect to who did it, I guess we should ask Pam Paugh. She stated she knows who did it, and there were two of them, but she doesn't know which one actually did the killing.

IMO Burke Ramsey either killed JonBenet or was there on the scene and knows who did it, otherwise the Ramseys wouldn't be lying, dragging their feet in regard to the investigation, and covering up. There's evidence of a fifth person in the house that night, and I think that fifth person could have been Burke's best friend **** *****, and possibly the Stine's teenage live-in caregiver for ******, ****** ******.

When Jayelles showed us TV captures she made of the documents flashed on the screen during the latest JonBenet crock in England, it showed a list of people whose DNA did not match the DNA in JonBenet's underwear. All of the Ramseys were on the list. **** *****'s and ****** ******'s names were not on the list.

The stun gun and other items of missing crime scene evidence would have left the house when that fifth (and perhaps sixth) perp left the house that night.

JMO
 
==================
08/30/2004 Police Use New Tasers Frequently; Stun Guns Subdue 105 People in First 4 Months
http://www.policeone.com/police-products/less-lethal/taser/articles/91449/

Aug 2004 Police use new Tasers frequently
http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/aug04/254053.asp

==================

November 12th, 2004 Taser Use on Florida Boy, 6, Brings Outcry
http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=18420

Nov. 19, 2004 Police release 911 tape about 6-year-old student who was shot with Taser
http://www.timesleader.com/mld/miamiherald/news/10225566.htm

12-year old girl
November 13, 2004 Miami Police Review New Tasered-Child Case
http://www.katv.com/news/stories/1104/187373.html

Oct. 12, 2004 73 cases of death following stun-gun use
http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special43/articles/0915taserlist16-ON.html

Air Taser Representative: Oral Evidence
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/05302002Depo-RobertStratbuckerMd.htm

The pictures are informative:
http://www.jameson245.com/doc2usa.htm

Its difficult to factor the use of a stun gun into an Auto Erotic Asphyxiation scenario. The possibility that others outside the family were involved makes for another kind of ball game, if the Grand Jury knew Burke did not act alone, why did they not pursue the other perps?

The use of the stun gun, would suggest taken along with the garrote, and head trauma, a prima facia case for premeditated murder. Most definitely not a case of a dysfunctional family covering up an embarrassing accident.
 
BlueCrab said:
Kat,

Thank you for that story about your husband getting tased. If he doesn't mind, I'd like to ask him a few questions.

1. The stun gun hit left two small round marks on your chest. What kind of shirt were you wearing and about how many seconds (less than one second; one second; two seconds; etc.) was the gun held against your chest? He was wearing his uniform shirt and he also wears a cotton t-shirt under that. The uniform is kind of a cotton/polly blend and is pretty tick, he complains how hot it gets in the summer. He would normal be wear a bullet proof vest but for obv. reasons they had him take it off. The shock was quick the person doing the test pulled the trigger and let go the shock he said was prob. about 5 sec. that is how long he recalls feeling it. They put the taser tags on him on they did not shoot from a distance. The prongs or whatever were put on the outside of his shirt.

2. Was the gun an Air Taser brand; and if so, were you shot with darts or was the gun itself held against your chest? If held against your chest, did you hold it, or did someone else hold it? It was the darts, he was not shot with them they were placed on the outside of his shirt.

3. When other officers took the test, do you know if marks were left on them similar to yours? He said everyones marks were the same, but he did notice that the lighter complected peoples marks stayed longer.

4. Did the two little burn marks on your chest scab over before they eventually went away five days later? They never scabbed over they just stayed red and got lighter as the days went on.

5. Was one mark more pronounced than the other mark? He said he did not notice that one was more than the other, however he did not look that close as I recall they looked about the same to me.

6. You said you were not able to scream. Did you notice any problem with the ability to breathe during A/O immediately following the shock? He said he did not have a problem breathing after, it was like he had ran a little heart was beating fast but nothing out of the usual like if he was running, a little out of breath but not a problem breathing. He said that the feeling he got when they did it was like oh s**t, ya know kind of like it ya grab something hot your first reaction is to let go and you are kind of shocked about it, but he could not move, he says he remembers that more than anything. His reaction was to run away, but of course he could not.

7. Did the gun make any noise while you were being shocked? If so, about what was the noise equal to? Okay I am not sure how to write this, he said there was a noise, he did not notice it when he was getting stunned but he did hear it when the others were. I really dont know how to write the noise he made lol, so here goes, like brrRRRRrr, was soft, got louder then soft. Not loud at all if he were outside the room even with door open he would not have heard it.

8. After being woken and shocked in bed with 50,000 volts, would you have been in the mood to quietly go downstairs with your intruder assailant, sit at the breakfast room table and snack on pineapple with him as he sipped on tea? Okay he said if he were a six year old, he does not think he would have been able to get up go downstairs and eat. I will tell you this, he came to my house right after getting stunned (we still date, I know it is weird but oh well) He was his usual self. Without spreading my personal life all over the net, well lets just say if ya want more detailed info on how much eng. he had afterwards send me an im or e mail me, just dont feel comfortable posting it here. He says as far as the effects, they are gone as soon as they are there, in other words there was no lasting problems even seconds after it was over. But remember he is a very well built grown man that was expecting the shock, JBR would not have been expecting it. He says "he does not eat pineapple so no he would not and even if he did he would not have been interested in eating pineapple with someone who just stunned him, he would be more interested in kicking their butt, taking the taser away from them and using it on them." He is a bit of a smart*ss at times. But I wanted to makes sure I used his words and not mine. He says that he thinks a little girl to go through something like that would be scared and prob. screaming. Unless of course she was being shocked to make her not scream, in which case he feels she would have not screamed to avoid another shock. He is saying she would have screamed after the hit not during as long as someone was not saying I told you to be quite! He thinks she would be capable of screaming after the first hit in his opinon.

Thanks.

BlueCrab
By the way, he said for everyone to keep up their posting, because he believes it is people like us the ones who wont forget that will in the end help get Justice for JBR.

IMO
Kat
 
Camper said:
Another question, when your ex 'took' the test so to speak, was the official tasering preceded by a complete instruction as to the effects that the taser would have on different sized 'people'? They were givin information on the effects of the taser, he said that all it had was the weight limit, the effects are the same on everyone, it stops you dead in your tracks.

Did he also receive written instruction as to the use of the taser gun, to sorta look at and study at leisure? He actually had to take a week long class at 4 hours a day to be cert. They went over the proper way to use, when to use, who would be a good canidate for the stun gun etc. Yes he has a manual for the gun he was issued.
He says the one thing the stressed was this was a safer way of stopping someone that was not a mortal threat to him or others, only to themselves or if they were trying to escape without being armed.

IMO
Kat
 
Mr. and Mrs. Kat,

I'd like to thank both you very much for the interesting stun gun information. I'm sure there will be some follow-up questions.

BlueCrab
 
Thanks for all the good info, Kat. After reading this, I cannot imagine that an intruder stun gunned her in her bedroom in order to subdue her. That just sounds too risky for her to have screamed out and risk someone hearing her. Furthermore, I can't imagine an intruder stunning her in the basement either, for the same reason. An intruder wouldn't know if the parents could/could not hear down there in the basement. Combine all that with an intruder who took an inordinate amount of time to commit the crime, and then stage it in a windowless room where there was only one door in which to exit...and that is one amazingly brave person. I am becoming more convinced that the perp is someone who knows the family, knows the house and grounds very well, and was very familiar with JB. In no way can I see a random perp any longer. Perhaps I'll get off the fence soon.
 
BlueCrab said:
Mr. and Mrs. Kat,

I'd like to thank both you very much for the interesting stun gun information. I'm sure there will be some follow-up questions.

BlueCrab
He said anytime, I also told him about all of ya'll and how people make fun of us for posting everyday. You know what that big sweet man said, he said they should be glad we don't have lives, or this murder would have been sweep under the rug a long time ago. Don't ya just want to wring oops I mean hug is neck?

IMO
Kat

PS, you will love this, he wanted me to correct you on our names, he said to tell you that is Lt. Kat and Ms. Kat. lol, a sense of humor I never seen during our married days.

Kat
 
Nehemiah said:
Thanks for all the good info, Kat. After reading this, I cannot imagine that an intruder stun gunned her in her bedroom in order to subdue her. That just sounds too risky for her to have screamed out and risk someone hearing her. Furthermore, I can't imagine an intruder stunning her in the basement either, for the same reason. An intruder wouldn't know if the parents could/could not hear down there in the basement. Combine all that with an intruder who took an inordinate amount of time to commit the crime, and then stage it in a windowless room where there was only one door in which to exit...and that is one amazingly brave person. I am becoming more convinced that the perp is someone who knows the family, knows the house and grounds very well, and was very familiar with JB. In no way can I see a random perp any longer. Perhaps I'll get off the fence soon.
Ty, I am glad to help. I think if she was stunned it was for torture only.

IMO
Kat
 
Your reference in answer to BlueCrab's question about a 'weight limit', just what would that mean? Would it mean that a 400 lb person would not get a jolt, er that under a 100 pounds it would kill or? Thanks for the quick answers.

Now then we have the 'WHEN' did the scream happen, the one the neighbor heard, then didn't hear, but WOKE her husband to tell about it, hmmmm.

Did JonBenet scream when SHE saw the gun coming her way, and being told she was going to be shot? Did she scream AFTER she was stunned ?, hardly likely IF IF IF she was stunned three times in a row? OR IF IF an inexperienced user and holder of 'the' gun, did not get the desired effect after the first taser, AND IF IF JonBenet then screamed, the holder of the gun gave her two more hits. (I am assuming that she would have perhaps fallen after the first hit, IF IF it were given to her cheek - perhaps greater effect adminstered to the head) KITKAT, ask your Lt. what the effect would be IF IF tasered to the face ?, I would personally think that would be a far greater sensitive area to use the gun than to the body. How does Lt. think he would have felt if the gun had been used on his face during the OFFICIAL testing for police use?

KITKAT, did you Lt. say what would be the result if a small child were stunned 3 times in a row? Would this tie in to a 'weight limit' comment in your answer to BlueCrabs question?

Now we have the wonderment on whether a stun gun was shown being unwrapped on the MISSING traditional Christmas video, or in the Ramseys verbage, OOPS no batteries to run the camera that FATEFUL day.

Blue Crab, or anyone refresh my memory, there were marks on her cheek, which could have been the FIRST hit. Then where were the other two sets, on the back ? ?, which could mean she fell after the first hit, then hits on the back ??, I seem to be remembering that the other two sets were on her back?? Help me out here cuz my memory is dim at this moment.



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