Was Burke involved?

[Toltec]

Christmas day, JonBenet changed out of her pajamas and into play clothes.

She was asked to get dressed for the Christmas dinner. JonBenet removed her pants, probably using her feet to remove them. The pants were found inside out with fecal stains. I wonder where her playshirt ended up?

If we are to believe that JonBenet put clean underwear on...then we should be able to conclude that a small smear of fecal matter should have shown up in those size 12 panties. If not, then it must be fact that she had her panties changed during or after the crime.

 

[UKGuy]

You may be right. The problem, as ever, is when we only have the testimony of the only prime suspects ever identified in this case, it's hard to know what really happened, in what sequence, other than what the evidence tells us. In the case of what JonBenet was wearing when her body was left in the basement, we don't really know when she was dressed in the longjohns or the large Bloomies. It could have been at two different times: perhaps the longjohns were put on JB upstairs, much as Patsy said, or maybe JB dressed herself; perhaps the too large Bloomies were then put on the body in the basement during the redressing.

Since there was so much staging, it's hard to even know what evidence is real or faked, like the ransom note. But JB's clothes that she wore to the White's party that evening can be seen on the adjacent twin bed in JB's bedroom, in crime scene photos, I believe. I've even played a bit with one photo to make sure her long socks were laid out there, as well, which you can see at FFJ in the case library photo section:

At the bottom of this page, the enlargement:

Miscellaneous - Forums For Justice

And here are more photos from the bedroom with clothing scattered around:

Ramsey home interior - Forums For Justice




Thanks for posting these. It is still a bit ambiguous, though, don't you think? Logic would lead me to speculate that Patsy did buy JB her own size in the Bloomies. But still, it's not stated as a fact of evidence collected, more of a deduction...? It could be read that JB picked out the Bloomies for her cousin.

But for the sake of argument, let's say JB did pick a package out for herself; why would Patsy or John, or an intruder, for that matter, not just take a pair which fit her out of the drawer? I guess knowing if there were various weekdays of panties in the drawer and particularly a Wednesday pair, we might be able to deduce the large pair were not put on her because they were the only available day of the week that was accurate for that Christmas Day--Wednesday. So one small question would be answered: the too large Bloomies would have been put on for another reason.

Looking at what Holly Smith said, though, I believe there's a clue about the panties found in the drawer by LE: "Smith says most of the panties in JonBenet’s dresser drawers had been soiled with fecal material." If JB had an entire package of Bloomies in her own size which were new, astonishing that they would already be stained, as it had only been one month since the NY trip when they were purchased, in Nov. of '96, before Thanksgiving. Also I notice that Smith said the panties were in "dresser drawers," but Patsy said JB's underwear were kept in her bathroom cabinet in a drawer, didn't she? Maybe it's a slip of the tongue--bathroom drawer/dresser drawer, but I think of a "dresser" as a piece of furniture, like in a bedroom set. JB did have a dresser, right between her beds. See how the details can be so singular, yet can make all the difference: if JB had underwear in two places, for instance, then we have even more questions. But if there was only one drawer for underwear, and most were stained, then were all the "new" pairs in the laundry? Were they stained, as well? Could Patsy possibly allow her little girl to soil her underwear so without some kind of concern, leading to questions, maybe painful discoveries? Remember the three calls to Dr. Beuf within an hr., after office hrs., on or around Dec. 17th? Calls Patsy couldn't remember making, nor why?

I really believe that JonBenet had been molested prior to that night, according to the autopsy and the experts; so did Patsy ever notice blood in JB's underwear? I would think she had bled from the trauma to her hymen; how could Patsy not notice this? My opinion: she had noticed, and this led to the tension that ended in JB's death, whether it was related directly or indirectly. So maybe there were missing panties; I wonder if LE ever matched up a whole set of day-of-the-week Bloomies in JB's size from those they collected, determined if they were new, etc. What I want to know is where are the underwear JB was wearing before the size 12-14 ended up on her dead body.

Patsy's mother and father, Nedra and Don Paugh, were in Boulder and kept the children while John and Patsy were in New York with the Stines for a few days, during the Christmas Parade that year. We have a photo of JonBenet riding in the parade on the back seat of a convertible, I believe I remember. Burke marched with the Boy Scouts, as he and the son of JR's pilot, Archuleta, had done the previous Christmas Parade, as well. That was on a Friday night. The Ramseys returned to Boulder on Saturday, when John had a company party that night, if I haven't mixed the timeline up.

I guess I'm a bit anal retentive about the evidence. I want to see a credible source lay it out in black and white for me. I've never seen that credible source state JB had her own appropriate sized Bloomies day-of-the-week panties in her drawer, though I did see a credible source state the maid Linda said JB wore day-of-the-week panties. Can't remember who, though...probably in one of the earlier books? :waitasec:

KoldKase,

Thanks for posting these. It is still a bit ambiguous, though, don't you think? Logic would lead me to speculate that Patsy did buy JB her own size in the Bloomies. But still, it's not stated as a fact of evidence collected, more of a deduction...? It could be read that JB picked out the Bloomies for her cousin.

Ambiguous? Yes deliberately so, on Patsy's part. She answers the question in the plural, saying she purchased bloomies for JonBenet and as a gift for Jenny. I think if no day of the week underwear was established regarding JonBenet's drawer then this may also have been mentioned along with the statement about the 15 pairs all being a size four or a size six. Since it would have applied also to the instance in which Blomingdales were purchased for JonBenet. So I think there was day of the week underwear in JonBenet's drawer.

Now the evidence collected appears to be none we have not been told if any Bloomingdales were identified in JonBenet's underwear drawer, why not? Possibly because there is an absent Wednesday pair and that would be dynamite!

But for the sake of argument, let's say JB did pick a package out for herself; why would Patsy or John, or an intruder, for that matter, not just take a pair which fit her out of the drawer? I guess knowing if there were various weekdays of panties in the drawer and particularly a Wednesday pair, we might be able to deduce the large pair were not put on her because they were the only available day of the week that was accurate for that Christmas Day--Wednesday. So one small question would be answered: the too large Bloomies would have been put on for another reason.

Assuming staging was undertaken and its purpose was to corroborate some homicide scenario then to redress JonBenet in size-12's is a mistake, never mind removing the remainder from the house, big red flag here. e.g. this suggests its not simply pragmatic staging but premeditated?

Since there was so much staging, it's hard to even know what evidence is real or faked, like the ransom note. But JB's clothes that she wore to the White's party that evening can be seen on the adjacent twin bed in JB's bedroom, in crime scene photos, I believe. I've even played a bit with one photo to make sure her long socks were laid out there, as well, which you can see at FFJ in the case library photo section:

Thanks for the link, identifying the socks is interesting, how about her black velevet pants? I think the staging is central in this case, it is what makes it different from a lot of similar cases.

I really believe that JonBenet had been molested prior to that night, according to the autopsy and the experts; so did Patsy ever notice blood in JB's underwear? I would think she had bled from the trauma to her hymen; how could Patsy not notice this? My opinion: she had noticed, and this led to the tension that ended in JB's death, whether it was related directly or indirectly. So maybe there were missing panties; I wonder if LE ever matched up a whole set of day-of-the-week Bloomies in JB's size from those they collected, determined if they were new, etc. What I want to know is where are the underwear JB was wearing before the size 12-14 ended up on her dead body.

Its guaranteed LE would have done all this, they will know these answers. Its safe to assume she wore a size-6 pair of underwear to the White's party and that these were removed from the house at the same time as the remaining size-12's.

There is an outside possibility that the soiled pair lying inside the pants on JonBenet's bathroom floor are the missing pants because she changed out of her black velvet pants and into that other pair. And rather than bedwetting being the trigger, it may have been an absence of hygene, with Patsy hitting JonBenet and her being unstable in those pants falls over and whacks her head on some surface?

IMO there are two secondary crime-scenes with the primary crime-scene located elsewhere in the house. The staging gives the game away, without the size-12's we simply would not question the R's version of events.

I guess I'm a bit anal retentive about the evidence. I want to see a credible source lay it out in black and white for me. I've never seen that credible source state JB had her own appropriate sized Bloomies day-of-the-week panties in her drawer, though I did see a credible source state the maid Linda said JB wore day-of-the-week panties. Can't remember who, though...probably in one of the earlier books?

I think LHP said that JonBenet's underwear was tagged in some manner?


.

 

[KoldKase]

Christmas day, JonBenet changed out of her pajamas and into play clothes.

She was asked to get dressed for the Christmas dinner. JonBenet removed her pants, probably using her feet to remove them. The pants were found inside out with fecal stains. I wonder where her playshirt ended up?

If we are to believe that JonBenet put clean underwear on...then we should be able to conclude that a small smear of fecal matter should have shown up in those size 12 panties. If not, then it must be fact that she had her panties changed during or after the crime.

In my opinion, there's no question that the too large Bloomies were put on JB after she was at least unconscious. My avatar, taken from Jayelles' model experiment, documented at FFJ, shows how impossible it would have been for a live, walking, moving child to ever wear those panties. They'd have fallen to the floor, I believe. Even inside pants, they'd have bunched up so much, who could possibly imagine anyone tolerating that? I've worn undies one size too large, and they are very uncomfortable, even causing my pants to droop and work down.

I can't imagine that no one at the White's house would have noticed JB complaining or struggling with such a large pair of underwear, as well. I sure wish we knew if the Whites and their guests were questioned closely about JB's behavior and anything unusual they might have noticed.

The only explanation I can come up with is that the size 12-14 Bloomies were put on after she was dead or dying and she was then redressed with the longjohns, as well. Whoever put them on her--Patsy and/or John, IMO--didn't realize what a red flag it was. The medical examiner didn't even take photos of the Bloomies on the body, after all.

 

[KoldKase]

KoldKase,

Ambiguous? Yes deliberately so, on Patsy's part. She answers the question in the plural, saying she purchased bloomies for JonBenet and as a gift for Jenny. I think if no day of the week underwear was established regarding JonBenet's drawer then this may also have been mentioned along with the statement about the 15 pairs all being a size four or a size six. Since it would have applied also to the instance in which Blomingdales were purchased for JonBenet. So I think there was day of the week underwear in JonBenet's drawer.

Now the evidence collected appears to be none we have not been told if any Bloomingdales were identified in JonBenet's underwear drawer, why not? Possibly because there is an absent Wednesday pair and that would be dynamite!

It has been said, by Michael Kane, I think, that there is a lot of evidence the public doesn't know about. Of course, it has also been said by Mary Lacy we know all of it--though Mary Lacy knew so little about even the evidence we've long known about, she pulled the PERV Karr fiasco, so her insights are always lacking.

I'm not sure when the BPD detectives realized the importance of the Bloomies found on the body, though. In the '97 and '98 interviews with the Ramseys, the topic of the underwear was not a focus or questioned in great detail. Of course, in '97 the detectives were working against the Ramseys' designated time clock--a couple of hours each, I think Thomas said was originally allotted by Team Ramsey. In '98 they were questioned for three days each, but so much ground had to be covered by then, with so much to cover that the Ramseys had never before been questioned about, I don't believe LE knew at that point the importance of those Bloomies. Follow-up questions, which are natural in any investigation as information is gathered, weren't allowed for another two years, as well. (If the Ramseys hadn't written their book and gotten snared on the Barbara Walters show and Larry King Live, backed into a corner with questions about polygraphs and cooperating with the BPD, those wouldn't have taken place, IMO.)

But by the Atlanta, 2000, interviews, with Lin Wood obstructing the questions as fast as LE could ask them, Boulder LE obviously did have a clue about those Bloomies: they spent some time questioning Patsy about them, fighting with Wood as he gave Patsy cues along the way. The result is that Patsy changed her story during the questioning, trying to cover the problems as Levin and the detectives laid it out for her. The upshot for us is that we can see Patsy dodging and evading the truth on this. But once she said JB put those Bloomies on herself, I knew Patsy was lying through her teeth.

Patsy first answered in a well-rehearsed response: JB wanted them, Patsy let her have them, and JB put them on herself. When the questions about the size got sticky, Patsy's lie became more obvious as she tried to cover: oh, JB actually wore a size 8, so they weren't that big, and underwear are all the same anyhow. When LE pointed out to her there were no size 8 in all of those collected from JB's drawer, the jig was up and it was clearer than ever Patsy was lying to cover up for a little error made in putting those Bloomies on JB's body. Lin Wood jumped in to complain kids LIKE to wear them large, his own son did! Right, Wood. :loser:

Patsy Ramsey was lying through her teeth, and that's as clear to me as the sun in July.

Sorry, I've gotten on my soapbox again. So back to whether or not JB had her own size of Bloomies day-of-the-week panties in her drawer: I think it's a fair assumption she did, but no, we haven't been privy to any case insider saying flat out that this is fact, that I've seen.

Assuming staging was undertaken and its purpose was to corroborate some homicide scenario then to redress JonBenet in size-12's is a mistake, never mind removing the remainder from the house, big red flag here. e.g. this suggests its not simply pragmatic staging but premeditated?

We also have to account for dirty underwear that would have been in the laundry, possibly. There was a pair of JB's pants on the floor with dirty underwear inside, we know because of Haney's questions in '98 about those in crime scene photos. I believe he asked if they were from JB playing that day, though, and I think Patsy gave a vague, non-committal "I don't know" answer.

Thanks for the link, identifying the socks is interesting, how about her black velevet pants? I think the staging is central in this case, it is what makes it different from a lot of similar cases.

Its guaranteed LE would have done all this, they will know these answers. Its safe to assume she wore a size-6 pair of underwear to the White's party and that these were removed from the house at the same time as the remaining size-12's.

There is an outside possibility that the soiled pair lying inside the pants on JonBenet's bathroom floor are the missing pants because she changed out of her black velvet pants and into that other pair. And rather than bedwetting being the trigger, it may have been an absence of hygene, with Patsy hitting JonBenet and her being unstable in those pants falls over and whacks her head on some surface?

IMO there are two secondary crime-scenes with the primary crime-scene located elsewhere in the house. The staging gives the game away, without the size-12's we simply would not question the R's version of events.


I think LHP said that JonBenet's underwear was tagged in some manner?

.

As to the black velvet pants JB wore to the White's house, if you look at the photos of her bed which show the white chest at the end, it appears there is a black item of clothing on that chest. I believe there is a wide pants leg which can be seen, though our photos are not clear enough to be sure. The size and width of the long, black piece defined in the photo appear too large to be a sleeve, I'm guessing. So perhaps that is the pants she had on from that evening?

As I said, because of the staging, we don't know what was a result of normal events of that night and what was later arranged to appear that way. But for the sake of argument: the clothes on the other twin bed, and if those are the black velvet pants on the chest, do appear to have been taken off in her bedroom that night and left as they were lain naturally in the process of getting ready for bed. Whether that happened with JB sleeping away, as Patsy and John described it, or whether JB simply came upstairs and was undressed or undressed herself while awake and simply getting ready for bed, or whether they were later put there for staging, we probably will never know. I consider all three scenarios possible. But which is more likely?

That's where the pineapple on the downstairs table comes in, isn't it?

 

[Toltec]

If the size 12 panties had blood on them, then why didn't the longjohns?

Someone undressed JonBenet, as she lay dying, inserted one part of the paintbrush, wiped JonBenet down, then proceeded to change her size 6 panties into the size 12. They also put on longjohns, which I believe weren't on JonBenet before the assault.

JonBenet's pink pajama top was found on her bed, fluffed up as to mean she took them off that night, or if someone just layed them there. Her pink pajama bottoms were found in Burke's room.

One theory could be that something fishy was going on in Burke's room. Either she or Burke took those pajama bottoms off.

 

[KoldKase]

If the size 12 panties had blood on them, then why didn't the longjohns?

Someone undressed JonBenet, as she lay dying, inserted one part of the paintbrush, wiped JonBenet down, then proceeded to change her size 6 panties into the size 12. They also put on longjohns, which I believe weren't on JonBenet before the assault.

JonBenet's pink pajama top was found on her bed, fluffed up as to mean she took them off that night, or if someone just layed them there. Her pink pajama bottoms were found in Burke's room.

One theory could be that something fishy was going on in Burke's room. Either she or Burke took those pajama bottoms off.

Now that's something I never knew about. Did you read about those pink bottoms being in Burke's room in a book, or was it in the interview transcripts? How did I miss THAT?! :waitasec:

We do know that JB had the pink top on in the two Christmas morning photos we have of her wearing it. Patsy said they kept their pjs under the pillow, I believe, so the pink top at the top of the bed falls in with that, though of course, it could have been thrown there anytime that day or night.

If those bottoms were in Burke's room, yes, that would bring up lots of questions. I'm trying to remember if Patsy said JB slept in Burke's room on Christmas Eve? Sorry, my memory is mush at this point. So much to keep up with, so much disinformation spread by Team Ramsey....

 

[UKGuy]

It has been said, by Michael Kane, I think, that there is a lot of evidence the public doesn't know about. Of course, it has also been said by Mary Lacy we know all of it--though Mary Lacy knew so little about even the evidence we've long known about, she pulled the PERV Karr fiasco, so her insights are always lacking.

I'm not sure when the BPD detectives realized the importance of the Bloomies found on the body, though. In the '97 and '98 interviews with the Ramseys, the topic of the underwear was not a focus or questioned in great detail. Of course, in '97 the detectives were working against the Ramseys' designated time clock--a couple of hours each, I think Thomas said was originally allotted by Team Ramsey. In '98 they were questioned for three days each, but so much ground had to be covered by then, with so much to cover that the Ramseys had never before been questioned about, I don't believe LE knew at that point the importance of those Bloomies. Follow-up questions, which are natural in any investigation as information is gathered, weren't allowed for another two years, as well. (If the Ramseys hadn't written their book and gotten snared on the Barbara Walters show and Larry King Live, backed into a corner with questions about polygraphs and cooperating with the BPD, those wouldn't have taken place, IMO.)

But by the Atlanta, 2000, interviews, with Lin Wood obstructing the questions as fast as LE could ask them, Boulder LE obviously did have a clue about those Bloomies: they spent some time questioning Patsy about them, fighting with Wood as he gave Patsy cues along the way. The result is that Patsy changed her story during the questioning, trying to cover the problems as Levin and the detectives laid it out for her. The upshot for us is that we can see Patsy dodging and evading the truth on this. But once she said JB put those Bloomies on herself, I knew Patsy was lying through her teeth.

Patsy first answered in a well-rehearsed response: JB wanted them, Patsy let her have them, and JB put them on herself. When the questions about the size got sticky, Patsy's lie became more obvious as she tried to cover: oh, JB actually wore a size 8, so they weren't that big, and underwear are all the same anyhow. When LE pointed out to her there were no size 8 in all of those collected from JB's drawer, the jig was up and it was clearer than ever Patsy was lying to cover up for a little error made in putting those Bloomies on JB's body. Lin Wood jumped in to complain kids LIKE to wear them large, his own son did! Right, Wood. :loser:

Patsy Ramsey was lying through her teeth, and that's as clear to me as the sun in July.

Sorry, I've gotten on my soapbox again. So back to whether or not JB had her own size of Bloomies day-of-the-week panties in her drawer: I think it's a fair assumption she did, but no, we haven't been privy to any case insider saying flat out that this is fact, that I've seen.



We also have to account for dirty underwear that would have been in the laundry, possibly. There was a pair of JB's pants on the floor with dirty underwear inside, we know because of Haney's questions in '98 about those in crime scene photos. I believe he asked if they were from JB playing that day, though, and I think Patsy gave a vague, non-committal "I don't know" answer.



As to the black velvet pants JB wore to the White's house, if you look at the photos of her bed which show the white chest at the end, it appears there is a black item of clothing on that chest. I believe there is a wide pants leg which can be seen, though our photos are not clear enough to be sure. The size and width of the long, black piece defined in the photo appear too large to be a sleeve, I'm guessing. So perhaps that is the pants she had on from that evening?

As I said, because of the staging, we don't know what was a result of normal events of that night and what was later arranged to appear that way. But for the sake of argument: the clothes on the other twin bed, and if those are the black velvet pants on the chest, do appear to have been taken off in her bedroom that night and left as they were lain naturally in the process of getting ready for bed. Whether that happened with JB sleeping away, as Patsy and John described it, or whether JB simply came upstairs and was undressed or undressed herself while awake and simply getting ready for bed, or whether they were later put there for staging, we probably will never know. I consider all three scenarios possible. But which is more likely?

That's where the pineapple on the downstairs table comes in, isn't it?

KoldKase,
Yes, I agree with your remarks. Confirmation that the black clothing on the white chest is indeed her black velvet pants would be important to know.

As I said, because of the staging, we don't know what was a result of normal events of that night and what was later arranged to appear that way. But for the sake of argument: the clothes on the other twin bed, and if those are the black velvet pants on the chest, do appear to have been taken off in her bedroom that night and left as they were lain naturally in the process of getting ready for bed. Whether that happened with JB sleeping away, as Patsy and John described it, or whether JB simply came upstairs and was undressed or undressed herself while awake and simply getting ready for bed, or whether they were later put there for staging, we probably will never know. I consider all three scenarios possible. But which is more likely?

That's where the pineapple on the downstairs table comes in, isn't it?

Well the normal events are unlikely to be the Ramsey version. I reckon there could be at most four other versions, all with a similar start, end, but different middle. These would flow from each of the residents.

Yes I think your latter assumption about the staging is the correct one. What you see in the bedroom is likely to be staging. In fact it may be the residue from a prior staging. I had this factored into my BDI but the emergence of the barbie doll made its rationale inconsistent.

Yes the pineapple is like the size-12's it kind of forces a rethink, especially about anything the parents say.

One thing to note about the pineapple bowl is that it was not finished, it looks about 50% full.

Seems like after her pineapple snack either JonBenet undressed for bed then went to another room, or left her snack directly for another room where she was abused.

I think her abuser killed her , possibly in an attempt to stop her crying out, or prevent her from telling some third party about her abuse.

Close attention to the staging can suggest a sequence of events since we can assume some clothing arrives later than some other items and with some missing this raises red flags.

In this context, alike the size-12's, and pineapple, surfaces the pink barbie nightgown. Put simply this should not be present in the wine-cellar, so again like the size-12's, is this a mistake or deliberate obsfucation represented as staging, make your choice?

The three elements, size-12's, pineapple, and nightgown, are all anomalies, but patently arrive in a predetermined sequence e.g. the size-12's and longjohns were probably placed on JonBenet at the same time since they both become urine-stained, presumably a one off event?

What does all this suggest, well that the wine-cellar is a last minute re-staging event, with a consequent removal of percieved evidence e.g. remaining size-12's and the size-6's?

So was the barbie doll an opened gift or like the pink barbie nightgown , a sort of ritual interment, grave goods to accompany JonBenet on her final journey, undoing as some have termed it, or is there a simpler explanation?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'd like to know more about the blood on the nightie. Was it a few drops? A smear? Did it seem to be a spatter pattern? This is an important point. She may have been wearing the pink nightie while she was assaulted. Patsy's story about putting the longjohns on her, and leaving the white top she wore to the White's may be just that- a story. If JB was actually put into the nightie when they got home and there is blood on the nightie, then both the longjohns AND her white top were put in her after whatever caused the vaginal bleeding.

One thing I do feel- there was only a TINY amount of blood on the size 12 panties. Maybe not enough to seep through onto the longjohns.

 

[UKGuy]

I'd like to know more about the blood on the nightie. Was it a few drops? A smear? Did it seem to be a spatter pattern? This is an important point. She may have been wearing the pink nightie while she was assaulted. Patsy's story about putting the longjohns on her, and leaving the white top she wore to the White's may be just that- a story. If JB was actually put into the nightie when they got home and there is blood on the nightie, then both the longjohns AND her white top were put in her after whatever caused the vaginal bleeding.

One thing I do feel- there was only a TINY amount of blood on the size 12 panties. Maybe not enough to seep through onto the longjohns.

DeeDee249,
Yes, the blood type may be significant in forming a theory as to what occurred.

Its location may also be important e.g. lower down, might suggest vaginal bleeding?

I have JonBenet's bedroom mooted as a secondary crime-scene with her lying, visibly assaulted, in her bed, wearing the pink barbie nightgown.

Now to link a few disparate items: the white gap top, has to be placed back on JonBenet, because the obvious candidate has its pink bottoms missing, then there is the question, what is the gap belt that Patsy says JonBenet wore to the White's party doing down in the basement?

So its just possible JonBenet was assaulted in the basement and the bedroom crime-scene was then staged, transferring her clothes to her room, but missing out on the gap belt?


.

 

[madeleine]

I am almost sure now that she was wearing the nightgown when it happened.the blood on it and all the trouble of redressing her,the lies that she was put to bed in the same clothes she wore at the party.
BUT admitting that she was awake and was put to bed in her nightgown would have been a HUGE problem,especially since we deal with a sexual assault.
all the lies about her clothes and panties,the perp/perps bothering to wipe her off.
it's so clear it makes you scream.

I am sure now,the biggest part of the staging were the CLOTHES/the redressing.she didn't die in those clothes she was found in.I am SURE now.

now why would an intruder care about all this??nope.....

 

[DeeDee249]

And I really want to see that Gap belt tested for touch DNA also.

 

[Toltec]

BURKE'S INTERVIEW



On January 8, John and Patsy took Burke to the Child Advocacy Center in Niwot, Colorado, through arrangements made by the Boulder Police department, to be interviewed by Dr. Suzanne Bernard, a specialist in child psychology. As is customary in interrogations of children, Dr. Bernhard played a game with Burke throughout the interview and the entire interview was videotaped.



When left alone with the psychologist, Burke appeared to be at ease and even told the doctor that be felt safe, even though he did say that he had not wanted to come that day! Dr. Bernhard thought it was unusual for this child to feel safe. "People in this entire town didn't feel safe with the concept that there was someone running around that could be snatching children, and this was his own sister and happened in his own home. Generally speaking, a child who goes through this kind of trauma, where a sibling or a family member has been killed, they don’t feel safe.



Burke described his father as quiet and that he was "always at work", and that his mother "worked as a mom'. The thing he liked most about his mom was that she gave him lots of hugs and kisses, and the thing he liked most about his dad were "planes". Throughout the interview he showed little warmth towards his family, but at the same time was very protective of them. According to Burke, the worst thing they did was not buy him, expensive toys. Dr. Bernhard explained that most children in interviews will discuss things about the family that angers them even if they love them, but Burke appeared to have difficulty in opening up about his family, similar to children who can't say things, because they feel that there are some things they shouldn't say.



Social Services had previously provided Dr. Bernhard with some history on Burke which indicated an ongoing bedwetting problem, but Burke denied this saying that it happened a long time ago. Children are usually honest about this in interviews, and Dr. Bernhard wondered why Burke was not.



Many of Burke's other responses also created areas of concern for the doctor. Burke displayed an enormous amount of lack of emotion, almost to the point of indifference, which Dr. Bernard explained may be attributed to shock, but could also have been a lack of attachment to his family. Since his mother had appeared very emotional when she brought Burke for the interview, Dr. Bernard thought that perhaps Burke could not deal with the family’s emotions and had therefore just withdrawn. Even in response to questions which should have elicited strong emotions, he remained non-expressive. When asked “How have things been since your only sister died?”, Burke responded, “It’s been okay.” And when asked if he missed her, he said, “Yep.” Burke continuously told Dr. Bernhard that he tried to forget about things and just play his Nintendo.



'When asked to draw a picture of his family, he drew a father figure who was distanced from Burke, a mother figure which was the smallest figure in the picture, and JonBenet was not in the picture at all. Dr. Bernhard interpreted the drawing to suggest that Burke felt his father was not emotionally available to him and that his mother was insignificant and did not have a great deal of power. Dr. Bernhard thought it extremely abnormal that JonBenet was not in the family picture at all, since her heath had occurred only 13 days prior. Most children continue to include deceased siblings in family drawings years after the death because it is too devastating for them to think about the loss. Burke also told Dr. Bernhard that he was “getting on with his life.”, another very abnormal reaction for a child who had so recently lost his sibling.



When specifically discussing the crime, he related that he did not hear any noises that night and that he was asleep, but he admitted that he usually hears when someone opens the refrigerator door downstairs. Dr. Bernhard asked what he thought happened to his sister. Burke, showing the first signs of irritation during the interview, responded, "I know what happened, she was killed.” Burke's explanation to the doctor was “someone took her quietly and took her down in the basement took a knife out or hit her on the head." He said that the only thing he asked his dad was "where did you find her body", a highly unusual query from a child considering the possible questions a child might ask about the death of a sibling.



Dr. Bernhard felt there needed to be more follow-up with Burke in the discussion of sexual contact. The only show of emotion by Burke, other than the irritation with the questions about the actual crime, was when Dr. Bernhard began to ask about uncomfortable touching. Burke picked up a board game and put it on his head an action indicating anxiety or discomfort with these types of questions and that there was more that he was not telling her. Dr. Bernhard asked Burke if he had any secrets, and he said, “probably, if I did, I wouldn't tell you, because then it wouldn’t be a secret


So Burke already forgets about JonBenet by leaving her out of a family picture?

 

[joeskidbeck]

"where did you find her body",
snipped and BBM

Wonder if this is what BR was asking during the 911 call? IMO, he comes very close right there in letting the "cat out of the bag". No wonder PR was so emotional when she dropped BR off for this interview. The whole house of cards could have come tumbling down!

 

[KoldKase]

BURKE'S INTERVIEW


[snip]

Social Services had previously provided Dr. Bernhard with some history on Burke which indicated an ongoing bedwetting problem, but Burke denied this saying that it happened a long time ago. Children are usually honest about this in interviews, and Dr. Bernhard wondered why Burke was not.



[snip]
[/B]

Thanks for posting this from "The Bonita Papers."

Amazing how I can still find stuff I glazed over or forgot or just plain missed: Burke also had an ONGOING bed wetting problem, even at the time of the murder?

So Patsy had TWO children who were wetting the bed in 1996? Burke was almost 10. I have to think about this. Any ideas how this may or may not be relevant to this case?

Also, if you missed my earlier query, I wonder if you remember your source for JonBenet's pink pj bottoms being found in Burke's room, by LE, I presume? Thanks in advance.

 

[LCoastMom]

Kids live in the moment - his comment about getting on with his life was a bigger flag to me - I believe BR over heard too many adult conversations, by sitting quietly and fading into the background. He probably did "know what happened to her", at least enough to satisfy his own answers. He had said he usually could hear people *getting into the fridge at night - generally a fairly quiet task.

At 10, he may have learned by watching JR that men don't cry (didn't JR hide to cry over Elizabeth?) he was just reflecting what he had seen at home. I feel for him.

ETA* was that comment made before they knew someone had given JB pineapple?

 

[KoldKase]

Kids live in the moment - his comment about getting on with his life was a bigger flag to me - I believe BR over heard too many adult conversations, by sitting quietly and fading into the background. He probably did "know what happened to her", at least enough to satisfy his own answers. He had said he usually could hear people *getting into the fridge at night - generally a fairly quiet task.

At 10, he may have learned by watching JR that men don't cry (didn't JR hide to cry over Elizabeth?) he was just reflecting what he had seen at home. I feel for him.

ETA* was that comment made before they knew someone had given JB pineapple?

Good question. Off the top of my head, it's hard to say because the pineapple took some time to analyze by the lab. They did chemical analysis to match it to the pineapple on the table at some point. But it's not like TV; sometimes it takes weeks, or even months, to get the results back, I'm sure you know.

Burke was interviewed within a couple of weeks, so even if the BPD had the results back for the pineapple, I'm thinking the Ramseys wouldn't have known about it yet. That may be optimistic, though, as Hunter was handing evidence over to the Ramsey attorneys as fast as he got it.

Maybe someone else remembers the dates for this. I just don't. Sorry.

Good insights into Burke. Children do hear things we forget they're absorbing. I cannot imagine Burke wouldn't have been listening hard to find out what happened to his sister, who just disappeared one night. I also can't imagine he was told she was murdered in the basement, not within two weeks of the murder. So you're probably right about him hearing bits and pieces.

When the Ramseys told the National Enquirer some years later, in their interview with the tabloid, that they never talked about JonBenet's death with Burke, I found that very suspicious in so many ways.

 

[KoldKase]

I hate to bump up this thread and seem dogged about this, but it's really important or I wouldn't bother y'all.

Can anyone point me to the source of JB's pink pj bottoms being found in Burke's room. It seems like I remember something about that, but it's way too buried if I did and I can't find it. Was it in the warrants, maybe? Haven't had time to dig there, but if anyone remembers before I get a chance, thanks in advance.

See, what I'm wondering is if there was any urine or blood on those pj bottoms. That would tell us a lot, since that would have to have happened that sometime after they went to bed on Christmas Eve, or at least by Christmas morning, because JB is seen wearing those in the Christmas morning photos.

That would explain Thomas' theory bedwetting was a factor. But it would also place JB in Burke's bedroom when the bottoms were removed, I'm thinking.

I guess I'm thinking that the '98 LE interview had questions about JB sleeping in Burke's room...oh, my head is swimming....

 

[UKGuy]

I hate to bump up this thread and seem dogged about this, but it's really important or I wouldn't bother y'all.

Can anyone point me to the source of JB's pink pj bottoms being found in Burke's room. It seems like I remember something about that, but it's way too buried if I did and I can't find it. Was it in the warrants, maybe? Haven't had time to dig there, but if anyone remembers before I get a chance, thanks in advance.

See, what I'm wondering is if there was any urine or blood on those pj bottoms. That would tell us a lot, since that would have to have happened that sometime after they went to bed on Christmas Eve, or at least by Christmas morning, because JB is seen wearing those in the Christmas morning photos.

That would explain Thomas' theory bedwetting was a factor. But it would also place JB in Burke's bedroom when the bottoms were removed, I'm thinking.

I guess I'm thinking that the '98 LE interview had questions about JB sleeping in Burke's room...oh, my head is swimming....

KoldKase,
Those pink pajama bottoms currently have the status: location unknown. There does not appear to be any reference to them in the lea listings.

We only have the pink top, so unless the police have the pink bottoms but have redacted them from formal listings, what eventually became of them is open to speculation.

e.g. They have been redacted because there is direct evidence implicating Burke?

Alternatively, one of my favorites, JonBenet was wearing them when she was sexually assaulted so along with the size-6 underwear they were removed from the crime-scene to be replaced either by the barbie nightgown or the longjohns, which are probably deliberate staging to confuse investigators?

Or worse, does not bear thinking about, nobody noticed them at all, so they have vanished completely!

But given the focus on bedwetting etc, I reckon BPD would have been looking for them, for much the same reason as yourself.


.

 

[wonderllama]

The more I read about this the more I don't believe Burke was involved, but I believe he is prevented from giving further information because what he does know, whilst not directly implicating his parents, would simply blow major elements of the Intruder Theory completely out of the water.

ie: The boots, the pineapple bowl and simply the fact that he would know whether JBR was awake and what time she went to bed.

 

[KoldKase]

KoldKase,
Those pink pajama bottoms currently have the status: location unknown. There does not appear to be any reference to them in the lea listings.

We only have the pink top, so unless the police have the pink bottoms but have redacted them from formal listings, what eventually became of them is open to speculation.

e.g. They have been redacted because there is direct evidence implicating Burke?

Alternatively, one of my favorites, JonBenet was wearing them when she was sexually assaulted so along with the size-6 underwear they were removed from the crime-scene to be replaced either by the barbie nightgown or the longjohns, which are probably deliberate staging to confuse investigators?

Or worse, does not bear thinking about, nobody noticed them at all, so they have vanished completely!

But given the focus on bedwetting etc, I reckon BPD would have been looking for them, for much the same reason as yourself.


.

Thanks so much. I have long wondered where they pj bottoms got to, and it drove me crazy that Haney asked Patsy a lot about the clothes on the bed, the floor, LE asked about the Bloomies in great detail in 2000, but none have asked about those pj bottoms, not that I can remember, at any rate.

I asked again because here is what Toltec posted:

JonBenet's pink pajama top was found on her bed, fluffed up as to mean she took them off that night, or if someone just layed them there. Her pink pajama bottoms were found in Burke's room.

Toltec has been around as long as I can remember and has a good grasp of this case, so I thought maybe s/he had caught something about this I missed. I seem to have a vague memory about it, but maybe it was just discussed but no source?

Well, thanks for answering. Maybe Toltec will come back and can tell me.