Was Burke involved?

[KoldKase]

The more I read about this the more I don't believe Burke was involved, but I believe he is prevented from giving further information because what he does know, whilst not directly implicating his parents, would simply blow major elements of the Intruder Theory completely out of the water.

ie: The boots, the pineapple bowl and simply the fact that he would know whether JBR was awake and what time she went to bed.

You may be right. Burke has already disputed what his parents said about JB being asleep and carried up to bed. Thomas wrote Burke said he saw her climb the stairs on her own.

Also, we'll probably never know who struck that blow that almost broke her skull in half. That could have been any of the three in the home, technically speaking. Since we don't know what was used, we don't know how much strength would have been required, so I can't rule Burke out on this, either. Contrary to Team Ramsey spin, it was possible for Burke to do that with the right weapon, IMO.

 

[Toltec]

I hate to bump up this thread and seem dogged about this, but it's really important or I wouldn't bother y'all.

Can anyone point me to the source of JB's pink pj bottoms being found in Burke's room. It seems like I remember something about that, but it's way too buried if I did and I can't find it. Was it in the warrants, maybe? Haven't had time to dig there, but if anyone remembers before I get a chance, thanks in advance.

See, what I'm wondering is if there was any urine or blood on those pj bottoms. That would tell us a lot, since that would have to have happened that sometime after they went to bed on Christmas Eve, or at least by Christmas morning, because JB is seen wearing those in the Christmas morning photos.

That would explain Thomas' theory bedwetting was a factor. But it would also place JB in Burke's bedroom when the bottoms were removed, I'm thinking.

I guess I'm thinking that the '98 LE interview had questions about JB sleeping in Burke's room...oh, my head is swimming....

It was me who remarked about the pink PJ's found in Burke's room. I am almost certain I read that somewhere and I am going to search for it and post it as soon as I find it.

 

[Tadpole12]

It was me who remarked about the pink PJ's found in Burke's room. I am almost certain I read that somewhere and I am going to search for it and post it as soon as I find it.

pre 10-23-2010, 10:48 PM
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Heyya Toltec.

I'm looking for the original reference as well.

 

[Tadpole12]

And I really want to see that Gap belt tested for touch DNA also.

Heyya DeeDee,

I would like to know if the cigarette butts, found outside, were ever tested?

 

[DeeDee249]

Heyya DeeDee,

I would like to know if the cigarette butts, found outside, were ever tested?

I haven't seen where they were. Many LE smoke, and some of those butts could have been from all the people the Rs called over that morning, too. I truly doubt the "intruder/kidnapper/killer" would stop to have a few smokes amidst all he/she/they did that night. OUTSIDE, yet. With the parents sleeping in the house.
So I feel absolutely sure the cigarette butts were from people who were at the house after the 911 call and/or had nothing at all to do with the crime.

 

[Agatha_C]

I haven't seen where they were. Many LE smoke, and some of those butts could have been from all the people the Rs called over that morning, too. I truly doubt the "intruder/kidnapper/killer" would stop to have a few smokes amidst all he/she/they did that night. OUTSIDE, yet. With the parents sleeping in the house.
So I feel absolutely sure the cigarette butts were from people who were at the house after the 911 call and/or had nothing at all to do with the crime.

I dont know DeeDee, these intruders were there most of the night, they hung out with the children. They had snacks and wrote out long dramas, I mean ransom notes. Heck, these intruders were so good, they held a treasure hunt in the Ramsey home. Theme for the hunt, items you would need for a poorly botched and staged kidnapping/murder of a young child. Seems to me, they not only had time to smoke a pack and a half of cigarettes, they could have ordered pizza and made a beer run....

In all seriousness, I agree with you. I dont honestly think anyone took the time that night to smoke. Vomit? Yes! Smoke? No!

 

[BBB167893]

I dont know DeeDee, these intruders were there most of the night, they hung out with the children. They had snacks and wrote out long dramas, I mean ransom notes. Heck, these intruders were so good, they held a treasure hunt in the Ramsey home. Theme for the hunt, items you would need for a poorly botched and staged kidnapping/murder of a young child. Seems to me, they not only had time to smoke a pack and a half of cigarettes, they could have ordered pizza and made a beer run....

In all seriousness, I agree with you. I dont honestly think anyone took the time that night to smoke. Vomit? Yes! Smoke? No!

And do you know the worst part, Agatha? Some people would actually have us believe this. (Heck, I did!)

 

[Toltec]

I dont know DeeDee, these intruders were there most of the night, they hung out with the children. They had snacks and wrote out long dramas, I mean ransom notes. Heck, these intruders were so good, they held a treasure hunt in the Ramsey home. Theme for the hunt, items you would need for a poorly botched and staged kidnapping/murder of a young child. Seems to me, they not only had time to smoke a pack and a half of cigarettes, they could have ordered pizza and made a beer run....

In all seriousness, I agree with you. I dont honestly think anyone took the time that night to smoke. Vomit? Yes! Smoke? No!

Speaking of smoking...Patsy told someone she was going to smoke until the killer was found.

Steve Thomas observed Patsy chain-smoking during one of her interrogations...outside that is.

 

[Agatha_C]

Speaking of smoking...Patsy told someone she was going to smoke until the killer was found.

Steve Thomas observed Patsy chain-smoking during one of her interrogations...outside that is.

I had heard about her threat to smoke until the killer was caught, but never about the chain smoking event. Hmmmmm????

 

[joeskidbeck]

I had heard about her threat to smoke until the killer was caught, but never about the chain smoking event. Hmmmmm????

Me thinks the lady was chain smoking because her nerves were getting the best of her! anic:

 

[Agatha_C]

Me thinks the lady was chain smoking because her nerves were getting the best of her! anic:

Agatha>>>>> :silly:

 

[SunnieRN]

I dont know DeeDee, these intruders were there most of the night, they hung out with the children. They had snacks and wrote out long dramas, I mean ransom notes. Heck, these intruders were so good, they held a treasure hunt in the Ramsey home. Theme for the hunt, items you would need for a poorly botched and staged kidnapping/murder of a young child. Seems to me, they not only had time to smoke a pack and a half of cigarettes, they could have ordered pizza and made a beer run....

In all seriousness, I agree with you. I dont honestly think anyone took the time that night to smoke. Vomit? Yes! Smoke? No!

Too bad they were so much better than LE was at finding them, or the DA was in prosecuting them.:sick:


Seriously enjoyed this post Miss Agatha!

 

[mtwentz]

Thanks bluecrab! So, it sounds as if Alex Hunter had/has some discretion on how to handle this. I'm questioning my own BDI theory here, and wondering especially if JAR was involved, why there wasn't some therapy ordered for the younger perp and JAR charged. Unless it was found that JAR was the childrens tutor in the past, but not involved on this particular occasion. I'm struggling to make the cover-up to protect a juvenile theory work, and having trouble since it appears there were other avenues to handling a young perp. Maybe this is where various pressures on Alex Hunter convinced him to use his discretion, leaving the case unsolved.

Look, it's real simple...there was not enough evidence to charge anybody. The police felt strongly Patsy Ramsey was the perp but the D.A.'s office did not find enough evidence to point to anyone inside the house. And many in the D.A.'s office that an intruder may have committed the crime.

Everybody has their theory on who might have committed their horrible act, but that's all they are at this point...theories.

 

[DeeDee249]

Look, it's real simple...there was not enough evidence to charge anybody. The police felt strongly Patsy Ramsey was the perp but the D.A.'s office did not find enough evidence to point to anyone inside the house. And many in the D.A.'s office that an intruder may have committed the crime.

Everybody has their theory on who might have committed their horrible act, but that's all they are at this point...theories.

Three people in the DA's office is not "many". Frankly, it is widely believed that the then-DA AH thought the Rs knew who the killer was or had something to do with it. His assistant DA Pete Hoffstrom actually SAID (regarding Patsy) "just because she wrote the note doesn't mean she killed her kid". He is right- it doesn't- but it DOES prove she knew who did kill her kid. No parent writes a cover-up fake ransom note for a stranger or employee or friend. His comments indicate to me that he also felt she wrote the note. AH would have been happy with a plea-bargain, but the defense team would not hear of it. Can't blame them. They got the Clintons out of the Whitewater mess- the JB murder was small potatoes.
The DA had plenty of evidence. It was the DA's uncertainty about winning a trial that prevented him from proceeding with the case. And he caved to his powerful friends in the defense law firm.

 

[BBB167893]

Look, it's real simple...there was not enough evidence to charge anybody. The police felt strongly Patsy Ramsey was the perp but the D.A.'s office did not find enough evidence to point to anyone inside the house.

Well, mtwentz, among other things to be considered when evaluating that statement is that this DA was notorious for having an unreasonably high standard of what constituted evidence.

Also, notice the term: anyONE.

And many in the D.A.'s office that an intruder may have committed the crime.

Again, consider their reasons. That notion was largely (almost completely) based on social prejudice. And don't take my word for it either.

 

[BBB167893]

AH would have been happy with a plea-bargain, but the defense team would not hear of it. Can't blame them. They got the Clintons out of the Whitewater mess- the JB murder was small potatoes.

Isn't it funny how our minds work together, DD? I couldn't help but think over the week how the Haddon law firm used the same techniques in this case that they taught to the Clintons: hiring private goons to strong-arm witnesses, "investigators" that were there to obfuscate rather than investigate, etc.

The DA had plenty of evidence. It was the DA's uncertainty about winning a trial that prevented him from proceeding with the case. And he caved to his powerful friends in the defense law firm.

Right on all counts. Not only that, but his own words suggest that he didn't think society would be served by putting Patsy in prison when she'd already suffered so badly. I'm not unsympathetic to that idea, but last I checked that kind of judgment was up to GOD.

 

[DeeDee249]

Isn't it funny how our minds work together, DD? I couldn't help but think over the week how the Haddon law firm used the same techniques in this case that they taught to the Clintons: hiring private goons to strong-arm witnesses, "investigators" that were there to obfuscate rather than investigate, etc.



Right on all counts. Not only that, but his own words suggest that he didn't think society would be served by putting Patsy in prison when she'd already suffered so badly. I'm not unsympathetic to that idea, but last I checked that kind of judgment was up to GOD.

You know what they say about great minds, right?
Whitewater was classic, but lets not forget poor Vince Foster. They'd have had you believe that poor bas&*%# killed himself and then dragged his own dead body to that park.
Forensic evidence proved he did not kill himself in that location- no evidence of urine release or bowel release (which doesn't always happen) under the body among other evidence.

I agree nothing would have been gained by putting Patsy in prison. But it wouldn't have come to that. She would never have gotten any prison time with the jury pool from Boulder. They'd have been just as liberal as the bozos in Florida that heard (DID they hear, or were they snoozing in the Florida heat?) the Casey Anthony trial.

 

[Chrishope]

I agree nothing would have been gained by putting Patsy in prison.

Justice?

But it wouldn't have come to that. She would never have gotten any prison time with the jury pool from Boulder.

It's my understanding that judges hand down the sentence, not juries. Are you claiming that no jury assembled from Boulder residents would have convicted?

They'd have been just as liberal as the bozos in Florida that heard (DID they hear, or were they snoozing in the Florida heat?) the Casey Anthony trial.

Is there any evidence that the jury in the CA trial were a bunch of liberals? Were their political views asked in voir dire ? Is this something we can find out? (Is voir dire part of the trial transcript?) Is party affiliation a good proxy for lib/con? Or would we have to find out their views on say a dozen issues before we could determine where they fit on the Lib/Conserv spectrum ?

 

[UKGuy]

You know what they say about great minds, right?
Whitewater was classic, but lets not forget poor Vince Foster. They'd have had you believe that poor bas&*%# killed himself and then dragged his own dead body to that park.
Forensic evidence proved he did not kill himself in that location- no evidence of urine release or bowel release (which doesn't always happen) under the body among other evidence.

I agree nothing would have been gained by putting Patsy in prison. But it wouldn't have come to that. She would never have gotten any prison time with the jury pool from Boulder. They'd have been just as liberal as the bozos in Florida that heard (DID they hear, or were they snoozing in the Florida heat?) the Casey Anthony trial.

DeeDee249,

They'd have been just as liberal as the bozos in Florida that heard (DID they hear, or were they snoozing in the Florida heat?) the Casey Anthony trial.

Nope, just chilling out, terminator style, inhaling the environmental cannabis fumes and considering whether same gender marriage is testament.

p.s.

PIs are how things are done these days. Check out News Corp aka Fox. They use PI's to harvest personal information on anyone. There is a two way trade with the security services in these matters. Niccolò Machiavelli would have approved.


.

 

[BBB167893]

I agree nothing would have been gained by putting Patsy in prison. But it wouldn't have come to that. She would never have gotten any prison time with the jury pool from Boulder. They'd have been just as liberal as the bozos in Florida that heard (DID they hear, or were they snoozing in the Florida heat?) the Casey Anthony trial.

Forget the jury pool. (Not that I disagree!) Alex Hunter would have plea-bargained it to nothing before it even GOT to a jury.