Zodiac Killer

[Extrachewyy]

Hope 2011 proves to be the year Zodiac's ID is discovered

Before reading on, I'd like to appolagize for the misspelling of Morf. I'm unable to edit the title and also cant scroll to change the bottom of this post(ipod),sry mate!...Anyway, after reading the police report of zodiacs first crime. I also found the account given by James a little worrying. It seems to leave an extremely short amount of time (if any[11:15]?) for the crime to take place. His decription of the crime scene would not have contradicted just about any suspect or theory the police came up with. He claims he saw no one at the scene, just the cars. Would these kids really continue snuggling after a car pulls up and parks right next to them? If not, does this imply the crime was already in progress and the kids were no longer in the car? If so, and given such a short amount of time left for the crime to have taken place. I would expect a volley of shots (rapid fire) rather than the single shot James claimed he may have heard. Again a statement that if refuted, doesn't make him a liar. His timeline changes with the addition of a nondescript vehicle traveling west near the Borges farm. If he wasn't 100% on the actual timeline, and realized he may have pushed it back too far. He might then add a west traveling vehicle near the west end of Herman Rd, just to cover all his bases. The more vehicles he adds, the smaller the chance no one would come forward. Concerning the allegations that Morph's theory was flawed, and that if James were zodiac, he would never have put himself at the scene. Rubbish! He most likely travels this route at the the same time many times a week. To think the investigation would not uncover this you'd be playing with fire. Not to mention he himself gave up a workmate as possibly being there at the right time. Surely if he doesn't come forward and subsequently gets put there by someone. He then has to deal with what maybe an insurmountable amount of suspicion. I don't know what knocked this guy off the suspect list, but he deffinately caught my attention. I'm not going back and reading it again (I'm on my iPod), but I thought I read he was in his 30's and was also ex-airforce? Not sure. Just wanted to paste that I see nothing wrong with Morph's "Theory of James".
Cheers.

 

[morf13]

Thanks. He was 39 at the time of the Stine murder. The sketch of Zodiac the night of the Stine murder listed Zodiac as being 35-45.

What is even more interesting about 'James', and the shot he heard, was that he did not mention this shot when he gave his first statement to police at the crime scene only 9 hours after the murder......he forgot to mention it! He first mentioned it, 3 days later in a second interview with police. If you are at the scene of a double shooting murder, only 9 hours later, how do you forget to mention you heard a shot???

As far as how he was ruled out, he was ruled out apparently in 2 flawed ways:

*The police asked him to voluntarily hand over two guns he owned to compare with the ballistics at the 12/20/68 crime scene. OF course they didnt match, if you had just killed somebody, would you hand over the murder weapon?

*The police used two cursive signatures of 'James' to compare to the printed writing of Zodiac. This was a major mistake. I spoke with multiple writing experts that said you can not get an accurate match between a cursive sample & a printed sample....like comparing "apples to oranges" as one person said.

By the way, yes, he was retired Air Force, which certainly fits in with the military clues. One interesting thing is that he moved to Vallejo only months before the Z murders started.

You can read more about him, and other suspects, clues, and previously unreleased possible Zodiac letters at:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/

 

[Daisy1975]

I know this is an older thread, but I just wanted to pop in and say hello. I haven't thought about this case in a long time, and something reminded me of it the other day. I have A LOT of reading to do! It's good to see that so many folks are still actively researching this case. I am very behind on suspects.

In the past, Arthur Lee Allen was always my favorite suspect. I never thought he looked anything like the sketches though. I wasn't too worried about lack of a DNA match on the stamps because I figured there was no way he would leave saliva behind. I think it was mentioned though that there was a palm print on one of the letters as well that was not a match.

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

http://dcsymbols.com/numbers/numbers.htm

I came across the above while researching another case and seen the symbol for number 10 and thought about this case. Just posting as an add on and for interest.
​

 

[STANDREID]

The murders of Robert Domingos, 18, and Linda Edwards, 17, occurred on June 4 of 1963. Some have listed these shootings as possibly the first murders of Zodiac. If you are among this number then this coming Tuesday marks the commencement of Zodiac's semi-centenary.

 

[Icky Etardo]

I realize that this is a very old thread, and most of the posts I've quoted are from 2009. However, I thought it was still worth hazarding an opinion on some of the questions regarding handwriting that have previously been posted in this thread.

First, my qualifications: Let me say right off the bat that I AM NOT A HANDWRITING ANALYST. My experience with handwriting comparison comes from my 15 years of experience as a Title Examiner. One of the duties of a title examiner is to compare signatures on new loan applications to previously known samples provided on other documents in order to prevent forgeries and frauds. My work would not serve as evidence to indict a person for forgery or fraud; rather, it would serve to put up a red flag that the signature may be fraudulent and require further investigation. Here's how it worked:

1. I would notice a discrepancy between the signature on the new loan document and previously existing signatures on old loan documents
2. I would provide copies of both signatures and use a highlighter to point out the discrepancies that I saw between the two or more signatures
3. The file with the discrepancy report would be sent back to Escrow and the closing date would be postponed pending further investigation
4. The escrow officer would provide a statement detailing their evidence that the signature was valid, OR
5. The escrow officer would ask the signor to come into the office with identification and sign an additional signature card
6. If the signature card did not serve to immediately quell all doubts, the evidence would be forwarded to the lending bank, and their handwriting ANALYST would examine the evidence and issue a report either verifying a match or disputing it
7. If the lending bank's handwriting ANALYST disputed the signatures as a match, the evidence would be forwarded to law enforcement for potential prosecution

In the course of my career, I did catch one genuine forgery in the late 1980s. An elderly woman was (presumably) attempting to refinance her home, which had been purchased in the 1950s and paid in full in the 1970s. I noticed an extreme discrepancy between the two signatures and flagged the file for examination. The escrow officer spoke to the woman's daughter, who had been acting as an agent for her elderly mother, and told her that her mother would have to appear to sign the signature card or the loan would not be issued. After much wrangling and obfuscating, the daughter admitted that she'd signed the loan document on her mother's behalf and had been signing other documents for her mother, such as checks, for quite some time. The daughter did not have the appropriate Power of Attorney legally authorizing her to sign on her mother's behalf. In a compromise, the loan documents were redrawn and the mother was allowed to sign the new loan documents with her own signature in front of witnesses and a notary. The loan was issued, but the evidence was privately forwarded to law enforcement so that they could investigate whether the daughter was taking advantage of the mother under elder abuse laws. The daughter was never charged with anything, and later the mother and daughter did record a Power of Attorney legally authorizing the daughter to sign on behalf of the mother so that this would never happen again.

Now that I've bored you all to death, I'll give you all my opinion on the samples in this thread.

From Page 2:

ZODIAC Letter to the FBI...Take a look,do you think this is authentic?
The first letter is a verified letter from Zodiac. The second letter is a letter to the FBI that i found in their declassified files,along with a copy of the return envelope.The return address is blacked out,but the city it is post marked from is there,but hard to read.

I personally believe that the lower case letter "d" is a spot on match in both letters.The way it leans to the right,and has a bit of a loop at the top. In addition,in the letter to the FBI,he crosses out a word that looks like the word PUTTING,and writes over top of it the word ESTABLISHING. Zodiac on more than one occasion crossed out a word,and wrote another word over top of it.I also went on to read the following from the FBI regarding this letter:
"These are letters received in the Zodiac case.It has not been definately established that all of these letters were written by the Zodiac"
Also if you look on the envelope that the letter was sent in to the FBI,the lower case letter "f" looks alot like Zodiac's as well. The envelope was addressed and mailed to the FBI office in Boston. And the return address as i said is blacked out but the postmark is visible,but hard to read.If anyone here is computer savy and could enlarge it and clean it up,it would be much appreciated.I wish i could determine who the letter is from.From the subject matter in the letter,it almost sounds like an investiagtor communicating with the FBI office, or a citizen trying to give the FBI some info,but there is no way to determine where/who sent it with the return address blacked out.I wish i could make out the postmark.Since it is 11 years after the last confirmed Zodiac attack,the postmark could be important if it is from another city or state,showing that perhaps Zodiac moved.

I think i know why the letter may have been sent to the office in Boston,and that makes me think of one person that may have written it to the Boston FBI,but i will not comment on it here at this time.

Please give your opinions on the samples when compared to each other. Do we have any hand writing experts here?

You have a pretty good eye. The lower-case Ds are very similar, and nearly indistinguishable. However, the lower-case Rs are completely different. Even though both examples are printed, in the second sample, the Rs are written in a distinctive script style. The Rs in the first example are very sloppy or hastily written printed Rs. I would flag this as "handwriting does not match".

Also from page 2:

Great find on the photo. I have only seen a couple pics of him,and they were newer than 1980. WOW,take off the beard,and give em a haircut and he does look like the Z sketch. As far as radians,binary,etc,math and geometry are not my strongest areas,so i dont know anything about that stuff. But if you add his background,his connection to the area,his history of writing to papers,etc, he certainly makes an interesting person of interest.Once again,i am not saying he was Zodiac,and i am not trying to ruin his name or rep.By the way,here is a sample of what i am almost positive is Penn's handwriting(which i have to say does NOT match any Zodiac writing i ever saw,but then again i dont know that Zodiac ever wrote in cursive)

In regards to Penn and how he relates to BOSTON,heres a youtube video about Joan Webster. Joan Webster was the woman from Harvard who was killed,and who Penn accused Michael Ohare of murdering. Watch the video and at 6:47 into the video,listen to what she says,and see who it sounds like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbym7FjN5xY[/COLO"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

There is no way to compare a handwritten sample to a printed sample. The style, the flow, the slant, character formation, hesitation marks---all of these are almost entirely different between handwriting and printing samples from the same person. Zodiac was very clever in choosing to print his letters. Printing does not provide nearly as many distinguishing features as handwriting does, and makes it much harder to compare two samples. There are also far fewer available examples of printing from almost anyone compared to how many examples of their handwriting are available, since nearly everyone uses handwriting to sign their name. Printing to printing comparisons can still be done though. I would send this one back to escrow with a note asking why one sample was handwritten and the other was printed without hazarding an opinion on whether or not the two samples matched, as it isn't possible to make a fair comparison.

from page 3:

Quoting myself here. Take a look at the letter written to the FBI that i believe was written by Penn. Look at the very top after the word Hoover. Do you see it? .........."CHEIF",which should be spelled CHIEF! Hmm.Zodiac used to do that as well. If this letter is from Penn,he's pretty smart and i could not imagine him spelling that word wrong,and i bet the FBI missed it. I didnt see any other words spelled wrong in the letter,wow

UPDATE: I am still trying to verify that the letter I believe to be fromPenn to the FBI dated 1971,is actually from Penn.In the meantime here are pics of definate Penn handwriting samples. One is a divorce agreement he signed,and the other is a diagram he drew

No valid comparison can be made. The divorce document uses cursive handwriting, while the diagram is printed. There is no real way to compare cursive writing with printing. Just FYI for y'all, there's also no way to compare the symbols that the Zodiac made with any other type of writing other than more symbols (not that I've seen anyone try to do that here).

There are a lot of reasons why handwriting examples from the same person wouldn't match. One reason is the intent or gravity of the document; for instance, a person signing an important document may make their signature neater or fancier than they would their grocery list. Another reason is physical illness or advancing age; as we get older, our ability to use our hands naturally degrades, and there are many illnesses such as arthritis or Parkinson's disease which may affect our ability to write. A third reason why handwriting samples from the same person may not match is affectation; people may simply change their style because they believe that the new style llooks clearer, more educated, or more refined in some way.

All of that being said, the age of the comparison sample in contrast to the original Zodiac letters may make handwriting comparisons irrelevant or inconclusive all on its own. Comparing the 1960s Zodiac letters to samples written in the 1990s could possibly exclude the real Zodiac killer as the author due to natural changes in the killer's ability to write. However, it's still possible that the Zodiac killer's handwriting could still match and be used against them as evidence. All I'm saying here is that handwriting evidence becomes more sketchy and less conclusive for every year that passes between the original Zodiac letters being written and today. I seriously doubt that a person could be convicted of being the Zodiac killer based on handwriting analysis alone, even if the two handwriting samples were a very compelling match.

 

[chlban]

Just thought I would check out this thread, although the Zodiac does not seem to be holding the interest of some of the other threads.

I am old enough to remember this case as it was happening. I grew up in Southern California. The frist major crimes that really scared me were the Tate/LaBianca killings which will, of course, always be thought of as the Manson Killings. We did not know about Manson at the time though all we knew was there seemded to be random killers out there first hitting a movie stars house, but quickly followed by the killing of a more "regular" couple all taking place in the victims homes.

Not long after that the Zodiac starting hitting the news. I can still remember watching a news cast where they showed a sketch of the Zodiac in the hood he wore during the Lake Berryesa killings. I swear that get up was the scariest thing I had ever seen at that age. To realize that he was operating in California (even though it was at the opposite end of the State, my geography was not yet devleoped too well) just added to the fear.

Maybe that is why this case always stuck with me. I have read alot about it over the years and it still fascinates. Unfortunately I think he is dead. I say unfortunately only because I believe that means we will never know for sure who he was.

I always thought he would leave proof of who he was when he died. With his love of taunting the police and publicity, it just seemed natural to expect that. However, after the arrests and subsequent stories about Dennis Radar and Gary Ridgeway, and the fact that we have never heard anything about discovering who the Zodiac really was (and no, I absolutely do not buy the stepchildren that have pointed the finger that the stepdads) I now believe that his "family" probably dsposed of the evidence when he died.

I just don't believe he died when the killings stopped, nor do I believe that he went to prison. My own theory is that the Stine Killing resulted in just to close a call ad he knew he had to stop or be caught. If he continued killing he knew he had to stop taking credit for it. He had just become too visible.

I also don't believe it was any of the known "suspects". While I have heard good arguments for most of them, my gut says this is someone much like Ridgeway or Radar. No one that would easily be suspected, no one that fits the typical serial killer mold and that he went on to live a "normal" life - well as normal as a crazy killer can live anyway!

I don't think his family had any idea until after his death and then wanted to protect themselves and his reputation and just disposed of the evidence. Sadly, I think we will never know for sure. But this case has always, and still does, fascinate me.

 

[leilarose68]

I hear you Vespa and too agree with your opinoin about the Zodiac sites. But, most boards are like that.

can you tell me who the man at 1:30:45 is?
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0jnsbZwys"]This is the Zodiac Speaking - YouTube[/ame]

ummm he looks EXACTLY like the zodiac sketch. this is insanely creepy

 

[leilarose68]

I'm torn on this. Regarding where Zodiac lived, I definitely think he lived in Vallejo, I'm almost 100% sure of it. Based on the geographic profiling and the epicenter of the crimes, etc. Also, I think the motivation for killing Stine was to gain attention in "the big city". I don't think Z was a city dweller.

When you think about the fact that only several thousand (maybe less) white males of the appropriate age lived in Vallejo, and even way less than that fit the profile of Z... hmm. Penny for your thoughts?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0jnsbZwys"]This is the Zodiac Speaking - YouTube[/ame]
can you confirm who the man at 1:30:45 is to me? and why he looks so much like the sketch of the zodiac killer?

also, please check out the forum for nikki benedict. it's thought that she was killed by the zodiac killer but there isn't much evidence.

 

[leilarose68]

rader does look a lot like the sketch. i wonder what his hairline was like during the killing days tho? in one picture he saw his hair is very different from the sketch

 

[Tulessa]

On August 7, 1969, another letter was received at The San Francisco Examiner with the salutation "Dear Editor This is the Zodiac speaking."
This was the first time the killer had used this name for identification. The letter was a response to Chief Stiltz's request for more details that would
prove he had killed Faraday, Jensen and Ferrin. In it, the Zodiac included details about the murders which had not yet been released to the public,
as well as a message to the police that when they cracked his code "they will have me

Has anyone of you ever entertained the thought, that there's a code hidden in the ZODIAC name??

 

[Tulessa]

If you don't want me to have this blast you must do two things. 1 Tell everyone about the bus bomb with all the details.
2 I would like to see some nice Zodiac butons wandering about town. Every one else has these buttons like, Peace symbol.svg, black power, Melvin eats bluber, etc.
Well it would cheer me up considerably if I saw a lot of people wearing my buton. Please no nasty ones like Melvin's

Was it determined whether he was black or not? I have followed this case for years, but figured it couldn't be solved.
I'm just now joining the discussion, and trying to throw out a new set of eyes on this case.

 

[Tulessa]

Also, he uses he word *cipher* a lot. May not mean a thing, but it's odd. And maybe the clue is in the word *cipher*, and maybe not meant in ciphering the code?

 

[Tulessa]

His spelling is also horrible. Maybe not a lot of education?

 

[Tulessa]

Found this.

Starliper split his work into two sessions of 6 hours and 3 hours. When he was done, he had decoded the following text:
KILL/SLF/DR/HELP/ME/KILL/MYSELF/GAS/CHAMBER/AEIOUR/DAYS/QUESTIONSABLE/EVERYY/WAKING/MOMENT/IM/ALIVE/
MY/PRIDE/LOST/I/CANT/GO/ON/LIVING/IN/THIS/WAY/KILLING/PEOPLE/I/HAV/KILLD/SO/MANY/PEOPLE/CANT/HELP/MYSELF/
IM/SO/ANGRY/I/COULD/DO/MY/THING/IM/ALONE/IN/THIS/WORLD/MY/WHOLE/LIFE/FUL/O/LIES/IM/UNABLE/TO/STOP/BY/THE/
TIME/YOU/SOLVE/THIS/I/WILL/HAV/KILLD/ELEVEN/PEOPLE/PLEASE/HELP/ME/STOP/KILLING/PEOPLE/PLEASE/
MY/NAME/IS/LEIGH/ALLEN/

http://fostercity.patch.com/groups/editors-picks/p/has-the-code-of-the-zodiac-killer-been-cracked

 

[Tulessa]

Ok, I'm hooked.

 

[daisymae]

can you tell me who the man at 1:30:45 is?
This is the Zodiac Speaking - YouTube

ummm he looks EXACTLY like the zodiac sketch. this is insanely creepy

Thanks for posting the youtube ... totally fascinating!

 

[Dr. Know?]

Also, he uses he word *cipher* a lot. May not mean a thing, but it's odd. And maybe the clue is in the word *cipher*, and maybe not meant in ciphering the code?

Or like Jethro Bodine in the Beverly Hillbillies? :seeya:

 

[dgfred]

Or like Jethro Bodine in the Beverly Hillbillies? :seeya:

Jethro was good at 'gozintas' and 'naughts' too. :floorlaugh:

Sorry... back on topic. :blushing:

 

[chlban]

Tulessa;9918667

His spelling is also horrible. Maybe not a lot of education

That has been considered. As has the possibility that he wanted people to
believe he did not have alot of education and was deliberately making errors to throw off the police. Personally I believe he did not have much education, but who knows?

To answer an earlier inquiry you made, no one has ever suggested the Zodiac was African American. Since there are two surviving victims, along with the teenagers that viewed the Stein Killing and the cops that spoke to him right after Stein, I think that can safely be ruled out.

He was white, and somewhat stocky, medium height. What I have always found the most interesting on the physical description is the vast difference in the estimated age. Some witnesses said he was 20-30 and others estimated hiim to be in his 40's. It's been awhile since I have really studied this case, but I believe it was the two victims who claimed he was younger and the police, who saw him and spoke to him right after the Stein Killing, (but the initial report that had gone out had indicated, incorrectly, that the suspect was a black man) that placed him in his 40's.

Of course if he was in his forties it becomes far more likely that he is now dead.