17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #13

[shadowraiths]

Sorry to snip your excellent post. I hope everyone reads it in its entirety on page 1 of this thread.

But you hint at an interesting question: suppose hypothetically that one believes African-American teens have been committing burglaries in the neighborhood and then getting away because police response times are slow. And further suppose that GZ was fed up and decided that THIS AA teen wasn't getting away, not tonight, enough was enough.

Is that a HATE crime? It has a racial element, certainly, but the animus is directed at a small, CRIMINAL subset of black youths, not necessarily at African-Americans in general. Racism being a complicated impulse, one might well have close AA friends and simultaneously feel a deep resentment at black criminals who were robbing one's neighbors.

Or to put it more briefly, assuming the above, GZ shot TM because GZ believed TM was yet another black youth burglarizing nearby homes, NOT merely because TM was black. Still not self-defense, but is it a hate crime under Florida law?

Well, IANAL, nor am I familiar with Florida statutes. However, while this hypothetical, to my mind, seems to be first and foremost, an act of vigilantism, imho, I do think you could be looking at a hate crime due to the racial focus. Primarily bc he had no way of knowing Trayvon's background without taking him in for questioning and running a background check on him. Add to that, in this hypothetical, he generalizes the criminal element subset to all black youth, he has now targeted this young man based purely upon his perceived age and race. At which point, one could, imho, very well have foundation for a hate crime.

That said, the primary reason I do not believe this was a hate crime, per se, is based upon the fact that his chronic calls ( link ) seem to be all over the place. That is, he's calling about kids, old people, men, women, caucasians, people of color, etcetera. While, imho, his 911 call ( link ) certainly exposes the racism aspect, I am of the opinion his issues, whatever they are, go well beyond racism. Otherwise put, had Trayvon been, say, an Asian youth, GZ would have, imho, used an Asian racial slur.

 

[LambChop]

It's ridiculous to request scientific validity in a test?

Alright, then.

It's not a matter of chemicals vs. chemicals where you need a control group. It's a pattern, like your fingerprint or your DNA that specific point to measurements in your voice that when compared to another voice can be matched up and identified. That's not scientific version but just how I see it. It's voice A, B and C (C on the tape). Voice A patterns compared to Voice C patterns cannot be matched up to a degree of certainty so that would eliminate Voice A. jmo

 

[iluvmua]

The Grand Jury will be meeting in 10 days, right? I really do think we will get an arrest for something? Something related to Trayvon's death. I'm not looking for 1st degree murder or anything like that. Manslaughter seems fair to me? I think he should be held responsible and should have to answer in a Court of Law for what he did? If he is found Not Guilty after all the evidence is shown in a Court of Law... then I will have to accept it. I've had to accept worse!

If this goes to trial and he is found not guilty, the riots would start right back up again.

 

[LolaMoon08]

Just curious if/when this goes to trial, wonder which would be better trial by jury or trial by judge? Seems juries get it wrong sometimes...if you know what I mean.

As long as they don't go to Pinellas County for the jury, I'll roll with it? Anywhere but Pinellas County. Or Lee County because that is where I am from and we don't need crazy down here.

 

[LolaMoon08]

If this goes to trial and he is found not guilty, the riots would start right back up again.

Can you give me the winning powerball numbers for tonight?

 

[m00c0w]

It's not a matter of chemicals vs. chemicals where you need a control group. It's a pattern, like your fingerprint or your DNA that specific point to measurements in your voice that when compared to another voice can be matched up and identified. That's not scientific version but just how I see it. It's voice A, B and C (C on the tape). Voice A patterns compared to Voice C patterns cannot be matched up to a degree of certainty so that would eliminate Voice A. jmo

Except there's a larger degree of subjectivity than with fingerprints. Fingerprints don't necessarily change to the extent that voices can. If the software cannot reliably match a voice to that specific recording, then that needs to be determined.

 

[Adrienne37]

Next thing you know, there will be fake audio floating around to support the theory that there was no way it could be Trayvon screaming just like there were photoshops done on the screenshots of Zimmerman from the surveillance video at the police station. Good grief. At what point is it going to be enough to show that this man murdered Trayvon Martin?


~jmo~

 

[Nova]

BBM. Very good point. Whoever is screaming is apt to be the one getting the worst beating.

Not if the other guy has a gun. Come on.

 

[mercuriod]

I have been sitting here for a couple of hours trying to think of a way to word this. Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or get banned from WS.

I have been a non-active member of WS for a couple years, would read sometimes and almost never posted. When I first starting following this case, while I felt that George Zimmerman was wrong in what he did, I still felt there was a possibility that he did act under the SYG law and was leaning strongly on the side of giving him the benefit of doubt. I wanted everything investigated and let the "chips" fall where they may. My feeling was if the voice on the 911 calls yelling for help was that of George, then he was within his SYG rights and that should be that. Now that 2 experts have stated that it is NOT George's voice yelling for help, leaving the only other possibility being Trayvon is the one yelling for help, I find it absolutely amazing that posters are still trying to find excuses for what George did or someway to discount the experts testing.

 

[m00c0w]

Next thing you know, there will be fake audio floating around to support the theory that there was no way it could be Trayvon screaming just like there were photoshops done on the screenshots of Zimmerman from the surveillance video at the police station. Good grief. At what point is it going to be enough to show that this man murdered Trayvon Martin?


~jmo~

When both sides are presented objectively in a court of law.

 

[Adrienne37]

Adrienne, can you give us a link to the quote above? The GJ is supposed to be seated April 10 which is less than a couple of weeks now, so I'm curious when she stated this.

(BTW the EVB tapes are interesting, not terribly informative about the processes they use--intellectual property concerns no doubt--but the funky intro and extro music for each clip is so distracting that maybe I missed something!)

Sorry about that, I forgot to put it in....

"Our process in every case is that we utilize a grand jury for indictment in investigations if we need them," Corey responded. "We may or may not need them, and we'll know that in a couple of weeks."

In other interviews, she again suggested that she may not wait for a grand jury to act. With protesters across the country calling for Zimmerman's arrest, Corey's every comment is being analyzed.

Corey declared this week that she's done talking for now.

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/31/149685179/in-trayvon-martin-case-attorney-also-scrutinized

 

[Nova]

It's experts like these that lose cases and create reasonable doubt in cases like Casey Anthony. They are a dime a dozen. No doubt they were paid for their trouble.

JMO

You have no basis for any of the above. Yes, I see it's "just" your opinion. But an opinion can be informed or a random guess.

 

[Yoda]

That's why I'm curious about a medical examiners findings on Trayvon. I'm curious about other findings besides a gunshot wound.

I'm thinking, from what the witnesses have said, a lot was wrestling/ struggling. TM might have got GZ's head against the sidewalk but I don't think TM was holding his head smashing it down. it could have started by a shove, a chest bump, a try to walk through the other person, and then they grabbed each other, TM bops GZ in the nose, GZ is still holding TM so as he falls or stumbles back TM comes with him and now there is full body contact and they both freak out even more in fear of what the other is going to do to them. Struggle, and then TM is shot. Maybe even during the struggle TM sees or feels GZ has a gun and he tries to go for it. Maybe it doesn't even cross his mind get get it to shoot this freak but get it to get it away from this freak. Meanwhile GZ could be thinking he is trying to grab my gun. I am dead if he gets it. just a scenario.


The unfortunate thing is that we can't know what is in a persons mind. To say that you know absolutely what either of these two people were thinking at the time would mean you would also be able to tell what anyone was thinking at any time. Why does this situation make people think they are mindreaders?

*You is not to you, it's just in general, I just got on a soapbox there for a minute.

 

[w1df10wr]

LiveLaughLov asked in Thread #12, post #12 - [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7742305&postcount=12"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FL 17 y/o Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #12[/ame] -
"Please listen and let me know if you hear what I do hear and it's a C..." ---

I listened to it earlier, several times and heard the c... word.

A few minutes ago, I had my husband listen without telling him anything regarding the audio clip. He also heard the c... word. I asked him "you didn't hear phone or punk?" He said, no the word definitely started with c and ended with n.

 

[legalmania]

This is a ridiculous back and forth and I'm through with it.

Arrest Zimmerman, seat a jury, and present them 3 pieces of evidence to consider:

-Have 12 impartial jurors listen to these screams

-Have 12 impartial jurors listen to the chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence tell them whose screams those are NOT.

-Have 12 impartial jurors stand on their heads, squint one eye, and capture just exactly the right frame to see if THEY can find any evidence of his imaginary beating in the video as he's led into the jail.

Then let em go vote.

What a wonderful justice system no grand jury, no evidentiary hearings, no motions just sit 12 impartial people and let them decide. If it worked that easily I think I could actually still do it and enjoy it.

 

[Adrienne37]

In our paper the other day awoman interviewed at a rally here stated "its not a black and white thing, its a right and wrong thing".
Now tonight I saw after todays rally far far away from here a woman interviewed used EXACTLY those same words.
I just thought it was weird.

That most likely would have been Trayvon Martin's mother, Sybrina Fulton.



~jmo~

 

[Nova]

I mean "control" in the manner that it would validate the results of the test. There aren't traditional variable roles in this type of test, however you can still check for reliability and validity. You can have a test that is reliable every time you run the test, but that does not make it valid. These are basic concepts in science.

The only way, in a test such as this, to actually validate the results would be to get a positive result in the manner expected.

Why are you assuming the expert never got such a result?

I think it's far more likely he has gotten 90%+ results in the past, or he wouldn't be quoting that number as the threshold for a positive i.d.

 

[iluvmua]

Next thing you know, there will be fake audio floating around to support the theory that there was no way it could be Trayvon screaming just like there were photoshops done on the screenshots of Zimmerman from the surveillance video at the police station. Good grief. At what point is it going to be enough to show that this man murdered Trayvon Martin?


~jmo~

To be fair, This man has NOT had his day in court AND all the facts are not out yet.

IF he was not acting in self defense and this does go to trial with what we know now, He would not get a conviction.

 

[LambChop]

Just curious if/when this goes to trial, wonder which would be better trial by jury or trial by judge? Seems juries get it wrong sometimes...if you know what I mean.

I'd be asking the Feds to make me a deal right about now. Far and away from Florida, in protective custody and make a deal for manslaughter. He'd be out in short order and safer there than anywhere and things would at least quiet down. He hasn't a chance anywhere else, IMO. He'd have to tell the truth. New identity, plastic surgery and he'd have to move where no one would think to link him up to what happened. jmo

 

[TonyGatto]

If this goes to trial and he is found not guilty, the riots would start right back up again.

When you say the riots would start right BACK UP AGAIN, which original riots are you referring to which would start anew?