17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #17

[LambChop]

The search for probable cause against George Zimmerman in Trayvon Martin case
By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel

7:36 p.m. EDT, April 4, 2012
In order to arrest George Zimmerman for the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, the special prosecutor heading the investigation must show a judge that she has found probable cause.

Sanford police faced public outrage when they announced they found no probable cause to arrest the Neighborhood Watch volunteer.

So what exactly is it?

It's a 'reasonable person' standard under the law," said John Tanner, former state attorney in the 7th Judicial Circuit, which includes Volusia County.

It is evidence that would convince a reasonable person that a suspect committed a crime.

For example: It's a rock of crack cocaine found in a man's pocket. It's a department-store security video showing a woman slipping a necklace into her handbag. It's a blood test showing a driver's blood-alcohol level above the legal limit.

Bob Dekle, who prosecuted serial killer Ted Bundy and is now a professor at the Levin College of Law at the University of Florida, characterized probable cause as "just above suspicion."

In the case of Trayvon's shooting death, it would be any piece of evidence that would convince a judge that Zimmerman probably committed a crime when he shot the unarmed teen in a gated Sanford community in late February.

That could be a witness, a piece of physical evidence or something else.



more
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/lo...n-probable-cause-20120404,0,650650,full.story

And isn't it ironic how the public now views GZ's accounting of what happened with the same suspicious judgment as GZ used to judge TM. jmo

 

[cityslick]

Night of Trayvon Martin's killing filled with conflicting reports
April 5, 2012

SANFORD, Fla. -- Sunday evening, Feb. 26: It was raining in central Florida while the NBA All-Star game and the Oscars were about to begin on TV.

A 17-year-old high school junior from Miami Gardens serving a 10-day suspension went to 7-Eleven to get candy. It was the third time Trayvon Martin had been disciplined at school, so this time his parents sent him to a quiet, racially mixed gated community in Sanford, Fla., with his dad to get his priorities straight. He was African American and wore a hoodie.

George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old neighborhood watch volunteer who routinely called police to report anything awry, had just made dinner and told his family he was headed to Target. He was Hispanic and wore a holstered Kel Tek 9mm semiautomatic handgun.

http://www.freep.com/article/201204...tin-s-killing-filled-with-conflicting-reports

I'm hoping the physical evidence will come to light. Eyewitness accounts are conflicting...waiting to see if they release the autopsy report..that will be very important...

Justice for Trayvon Martin

BBM

I agree, the speculation with this case is off the charts. The main piece of evidence so far is only GZ's story and the GF phone call. But there is details missing so it's almost impossible to link the two together. Add in a LE video that may or may not be showing certain injuries, a police report that may or may not be accurate, etc, etc, etc and here we are.

 

[cityslick]

And isn't it ironic how the public now views GZ's accounting of what happened with the same suspicious judgment as GZ used to judge TM. jmo

Even though I'm not willing to throw the book at him yet, because I don't have a lot of facts in this case, I agree with most others that he should at least be arrested on a manslaughter charge considering he shot an unarmed person and it's only his word on what happened. Let him prove his case, if he does ultimately get his day in court and he successfully proves it's self defense, so be it. Let the justice system work how it was intended. Everyone is entitled due process.

 

[Bottle Cap]

After all this time? He is hiding, IMO, because new black panthers are after him.

This does make one wonder if ole George has any greater insight now into what Trayvon felt like the night he was stalked and shot down in the street, i.e. what it feels like to be on the receiving end of a rogue mentality that combines little regard for personal rights with an unwillingness to let the authorities do their jobs. The universe has a funny way of teaching people lessons they need to learn, whether they want to learn them or not, no?

 

[TexanMom]

BBM

I agree, the speculation with this case is off the charts. The main piece of evidence so far is only GZ's story and the GF phone call. But there is details missing so it's almost impossible to link the two together. Add in a LE video that may or may not be showing certain injuries, a police report that may or may not be accurate, etc, etc, etc and here we are.

ITA! I'm just astounded by some of the conclusion jumping.

 

[w1df10wr]

GZ neighbor & fellow watch volunteer who wasn't at the scene, believes GZ confronted TM.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57403716/friend-of-martin-shooter-id-do-the-same-thing/ - March 23, 2012

From the link- IBM added for quote credit.

CBS News Mark Strassmann question ~"Do you think he did the right thing by confronting Treyvon Martin?"

"Yes."

"You do?"

"Yes. I would do the same thing," said Taaffe.---

If FT's answer is based on what he would do, that's not fair to GZ, is it?

 

[Elley Mae]

GZ neighbor & fellow watch volunteer who wasn't at the scene, believes GZ confronted TM.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57403716/friend-of-martin-shooter-id-do-the-same-thing/ - March 23, 2012

From the link- IBM added for quote credit.

CBS News Mark Strassmann question ~"Do you think he did the right thing by confronting Treyvon Martin?"

"Yes."

"You do?"

"Yes. I would do the same thing," said Taaffe.---

If FT's answer is based on what he would do, that's not fair to GZ, is it?

That to me was a "loaded" question. just sayin

 

[mercuriod]

I can't understand how he can use that defense. GM's actions don't show that he "reasonably feared" for his safety. If a person fears for their safety they do not purposely put themselves in harms way. That is not reasonable. It's interesting that it states that he "reasonably feared" meaning if he even thought out of paranoia that TM was packing he can shoot him. So, even if TM is not packing but GZ THINKS that he is than he can defend himself. But, why would you put yourself in harm's way and then claim self defense?

Preface this by saying I have not read the entire statute of the SYG law so this is all jmo, imo and all that jazz. But I believe that it states in there some where "what a reasonable person" would consider a fear as a threat to life or severe injury. I am not sure we can consider GZ a "reasonable person". Again jmo, imo and all that jazz.

 

[Footwarrior]

And isn't it ironic how the public now views GZ's accounting of what happened with the same suspicious judgment as GZ used to judge TM. jmo

The unarmed dead person with a gunshot wound and the weapon in GZ's possession don't count as probable cause?

 

[tehcloser]

A T-Mobile phone log provided by the family's attorney shows Trayvon's girlfriend called him again at 7:12 p.m., just moments after they had hung up. "I think this dude is following me," Trayvon told her, according to her account.

The girl said she offered Trayvon advice: "Run!"
Trayvon did just that.

At 7:13, two minutes into Zimmerman's call, he tells the police operator: "S --, he's running."

http://www.freep.com/article/C4/201...led-with-conflicting-reports?odyssey=nav|head

 

[tlcya]

http://www.freep.com/article/C4/201...led-with-conflicting-reports?odyssey=nav|head

It was the third time Trayvon Martin had been disciplined at school, so this time his parents sent him to a quiet, racially mixed gated community in Sanford, Fla., with his dad to get his priorities straight.

A T-Mobile phone log provided by the family's attorney shows Trayvon's girlfriend called him again at 7:12 p.m., just moments after they had hung up. "I think this dude is following me," Trayvon told her, according to her account.

The girl said she offered Trayvon advice: "Run!"

Trayvon did just that.

The girlfriend said she heard the two exchange questions: "Why are you following me?" and "What are you doing here?"

"While SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I overheard him state, 'I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me,' " Smith wrote.

In an interview two weeks after the incident, Chief Lee, who has since stepped down from his post, said witness statements and physical evidence backed up Zimmerman's version of events. He suggested that based on the timing of the call, he believed that Trayvon went out of his way to approach the person tailing him and mouth off.

BBM this statement by the chief makes it sound as if it is his opinion that TM shooting is justified because TM went out of his way to approach the person tailing him and "mouthed off" IMO.

um, yeah . . .

First of all how does one go out of their way to approach the person tailing them?? The mere fact the person is tailing them makes going out of their way and approach unnecessary, the tailer has already gone out of HIS way and done the approaching.

This post is not directed at you elley, but simply responding to your linked comment by the Chief.

O/T Good morning all.

ETA If mouthing off were justifiable reason to shoot and kill teens teenagers would be in danger of extinction.

 

[mercuriod]

Pulled from a couple of days ago...


csziggy
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 206
Timeline, GZ's call, and odd noises
After Concerned Papa put together his timeline and estimate of the distances and time needed to travel, I looked for accurate timelines that put together the released information from calls and call logs. I couldn't find anything that had really accurate time stamps.

So I put together the call log from:
GFZ's "911" call log as listed in the initial police report - http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...l Report.pdf
The times from the recording of GZ's call - http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call1.wav
And the call log from Trayvon's T-Mobile phone I screen captured from the ABC News report about Trayvon's girlfriend's calls: http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-mar...7#.T3c-atmP_Kg (The shot of Trayvon's call log from the ABC News story only shows the last call from the girlfriend.)
Here is a link to the PDF of the timeline I put together:
My Timeline
The underlined times are from the police call log, the other times are from my notes on the recorded call - and come at the end of the comment/event logged. The calls to Trayvon from his girlfriend are highlighted in blue. Police dispatcher notes from the log, in red. Noises I hear on the recording are in green.

There are some odd noises on the recording of GZ's call to SPD I can't identify that I would love to see what the people here think they might be:
Rhythmic, swishing noise
Fainting beeping
Clicking noise - The noise is repeated three separate times in the recording of GZ's call - this clip is the clearest and loudest.

Any theories on what these noises are?

I have been thinking about that and I wonder if those clicking noises are GZ playing with the safety on his gun. By playing I mean flipping it back and forth as he is pursuing TM. Kind of like some people do a ball point pen when they are nervous click the top rhythmically as a "comfort" thing. I think it gave GZ much comfort and courage to carry that gun and think he probably played with the safety all the time as a way of reassuring himself that he was in control. JMO, IMO AND ALL THAT JAZZ

 

[cityslick]

A T-Mobile phone log provided by the family's attorney shows Trayvon's girlfriend called him again at 7:12 p.m., just moments after they had hung up. "I think this dude is following me," Trayvon told her, according to her account.

The girl said she offered Trayvon advice: "Run!"
Trayvon did just that.

At 7:13, two minutes into Zimmerman's call, he tells the police operator: "S --, he's running."

http://www.freep.com/article/C4/201...led-with-conflicting-reports?odyssey=nav|head

I thought he said he wasn't going to run?

 

[Elley Mae]

It does come down to a persons opinion, I just hope that person is open-minded.

 

[Gin]

The unarmed dead person with a gunshot wound and the weapon in GZ's possession don't count as probable cause?

Exactly. And if someone can explain this to me, I'd appreciate it. GZ was taken to the Police Station in handcuffs. The responding police must have found it worthy to cuff him and take him in. What changed a few hours later, and suddenly he was free to go, no booking, no nothing?

 

[JeannaT]

Even though I'm not willing to throw the book at him yet, because I don't have a lot of facts in this case, I agree with most others that he should at least be arrested on a manslaughter charge considering he shot an unarmed person and it's only his word on what happened. Let him prove his case, if he does ultimately get his day in court and he successfully proves it's self defense, so be it. Let the justice system work how it was intended. Everyone is entitled due process.

That's not how our court system works. After an investigation is done, if there isn't the belief with the prosecutor that he can convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime was committed, there are no charges filed.

Our court system doesn't just throw up its hands at making a decision about whether a crime has occurred, and let the jury sort it out while the hapless suspect tries to prove his innocence.

Our court system works in the exact opposite way.

 

[tlcya]

Preface this by saying I have not read the entire statute of the SYG law so this is all jmo, imo and all that jazz. But I believe that it states in there some where "what a reasonable person" would consider a fear as a threat to life or severe injury. I am not sure we can consider GZ a "reasonable person". Again jmo, imo and all that jazz.

BBM agreed, which is why I feel GZ's history of brushes with law and behaviors are completely relevant to this case, whereas TM's school suspensions for non violent activities are not.

:cow:

 

[JeannaT]

The unarmed dead person with a gunshot wound and the weapon in GZ's possession don't count as probable cause?

No, it doesn't. Because shooting someone in self-defense isn't a crime. And the evidence we have (two eye witness accounts, GZ's account that matches the evidence on his jacket and head), and a girlfriend who acknowledged Trayvon began the altercation verbally, and other witnesses who say they heard the sounds of a fight for several minutes before the shot was fired all point to the theory that GZ is telling the truth - he shot Trayvon legally because he was in fear of great bodily harm. Which he had already sustained, IMHO.

But the law doesn't require that you have to sustain great bodily harm first, and then shoot.

 

[Concerned Papa]

I want to be sure I understand something about GZ's storyline correctly. While we certainly don't have all the facts at this point, there are a few that have been established.

-From the 911 call log we know that GZ called the non emergency line at [7:09:34 pm]

-From the same 911 call we know that GZ told the operator that TM started running at 2:07 minutes into the call or [7:11:41 pm]

-We know that at some point afterwards, GZ is claiming that TM decked him with a punch that broke his nose and got on top of him and began bashing his head against the sidewalk causing GZ to fear for his life and therefore be justified in pulling out his gun and firing one shot into TM's chest and killing him. We know that shot was fired at [7:16:41 pm] because we've all heard the shot at the :41 mark of a neighbor's 911 call which began at 7:16 pm.

-We're now also getting the details of TM's girlfriend's final call to TM at 7:12 pm for a call that lasted until some point between 7:16 pm and 7:17 pm when the call was disconnected.

Here's what I want to know if I'm understanding properly. Is George Zimmerman actually saying that a 17 year old kid with a slender build, attacked a 28 year old ex bouncer and beat him so brutally that the was afraid he was going to die.....WHILE HE WAS TALKING ON THE PHONE WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND?

Have I got that right?

 

[Adrienne37]

Zimmerman's Arrest Should Be a Family Affair, Including His Father
Posted: 04/ 4/2012 1:30 pm


George Zimmerman, the man who instantly turned himself into public enemy number one, is an intriguing character for a multitude of reasons. When I read Zimmerman's story, he reminds me of one of my more "interesting" friends who had a similar story in his life. This person was also a wannabe police officer who lived with his parents, dropped out of college and took things way too seriously. There are few men more frightening than wannabe cops who failed the psychological tests.


more
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-boyce-watkins/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_b_1393761.html

Thanks LLL. That was a great article and one that I agree with a million times over. I wonder where Zimmerman Sr. was at when Zimmerman was outside spraying down "bullies" with the water hose? Why didn't he bother to correct his son's behavior then? If he had held Zimmerman accountable for his actions through the years, then perhaps Trayvon would be alive today though considering the destructive path in which Zimmerman was allowed to continue, to do as he pleased without fear of punishment, I feel certain if it hadn't been Trayvon, it would have been some other child at some point, perhaps the little 7-9 kids that he called and reported to 911?


~jmo~