17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #31

[Concerned Papa]

BBM

Now here is where I have a problem. Where is the evidence that TM was actively trying to evade GZ. He did tell his GF that this guy was looking at him but he would not run when his GF asked him too. The only person who said he was running was GZ. I brought it up yesterday that if he was running away from the point that GZ said so, TM should of been nowhere near him, or at least not where TM ultimately wound up because the average run speed of a human is about 14 feet per second yet his final spot was only about 100 feet from the start of the cut through. GZ was on the phone with dispatch for 3 minutes after he told dispatch he saw TM 'running'.

IMO, Trayvon Martin is not on trial. His intentions, his reasonings, or the timing of his actions can never be addressed in this trial because he is dead. The one who WILL have to convince a jury of his intentions, reasonings, and most importantly the timing of his actions is Trayvon's accused murderer, George Zimmerman. As to Trayvon's running rate and mathmatical calculations as to where that would or wouldn't place him at any given point in time, let me ask you something. Is there anyone, anywhere, other than his accused murderer, that has said Trayvon was running?

IMO, a very real part of George Zimmerman's trial is going to involve the last sentence of this comment:

GZ was on the phone with dispatch for 3 minutes after he told dispatch he saw TM 'running'

Actually if you check the recording and/or a transcript of the 911 call you will find that George said TM was running at [2:08] into a call that ended at [4:07], so he was actually on the phone with 911 for 2 minutes, not 3. Be that as it may, however, after the bond hearing and Attorney O'Mara's redirect questioning of Investigator Gilbreath we now have what is our 3rd verification of what George told LE that night. Aside from the questioning at the Bond Hearing, we have Robert Zimmerman's interview with Sean Hannity, as well as the "leaked" article at the Orlando Sentinel. ALL THREE describe the same path of movement for Mr, Zimmerman.

(1) He got out of his truck [2:08]

(2) He followed Trayvon until the dispatcher "told" him to stop with "We don't need you to do that" [2:26]

(3) He stopped following him and continued on to find an address/street sign.

(4) He got an address and was walking back to his truck when attacked by Trayvon.

That's George Zimmerman's story. His attorney has now committed it to record.

Instead of calculating how far Trayvon could've ran, why not be the first one to answer a question I have asked repeatedly in this forum? Why not calculate an answer to a question that George Zimmerman is surely going to have to answer at trial? If George got out of his truck at [2:08] and follows Trayvon for 18 seconds, then continues walking an additional 80 feet to the next street over for an address, then starts walking back to his truck and was assaulted by Trayvon at the point where the sidewalks intersect, how long was it after he got out of his truck that this attack supposedly started?

Feel free to have George running, walking, or hopping on a pogo stick in your calculation of time and distance for this path of movement described by his attorney.

Then compare that to when he got off the phone with 911, because George Zimmerman is surely going to have to before this is all over.

 

[MaryAnn]

I don't buy that really - I live in a neighborhood with a cul de sac - if you get in there, you are lost - I know who walks around in the evenings and it would be easy to spot someone new to the area....I would definitely be suspicious of a person walking in the rain in a hoodie - since we mainly have families with young children walking or adults jogging. GZ was probably even more in tune to who was normally out and about in his neighborhood since he is a watchman. and I don't understand why people keep saying he was profiling his race....didn't the 911 make it clear that he didn't know he was black to begin with?




doesn't anyone watch cops? the skinny ones are always the ones scrapping - they always beat the big ones!!!

I also live in a cul de sac on a hill in the suburbs of LA. I always see people I don't recognize walking their dogs, looking at the view, even kids parked in cars making out... I always check to make sure nothing suspicious is going on and if not I go back inside the house. If I were suspicious of every person I didn't recognize I'd be calling 911 on a daily basis. I guess I live in a more populated area than you do. If it were raining and someone had a hoodie on I would just assume they didn't want to get their head or hair wet. I've worn hoodies myself walking in the rain.

 

[Velouria]

Wow, was just looking through some old transcripts, etc. from previous interviews and came across something very interesting in regards to who might have taken the photograph of the "injuries" on the back of Zimmerman's head. Tell me what you guys think (keep in mind that this is coming from Joe Oliver who we all know has been completely discredited as to his relationship with Zimmerman).

GRACE: OK, to you, Steve Helling, I want to clear something up and you may know the answer. You`re on the scene. I want to clear up Zimmerman`s medical treatment because yesterday -- last night I thought they took -- police took him straight to a police interrogation room. I now understand he got some medical treatment from a fire person at the scene, then they took him to interrogation.

But what do we know? Did he really break his nose? Did he really have a gash on his head that need stitches?

HELLING: Well, you know, obviously that`s what we`ve heard. I haven`t seen any medical reports to back that up.

GRACE: All right. OK, Joe Oliver --

HELLING: But you know, that`s what he`s saying.

GRACE: Let`s see Joe Oliver and Steve Helling. What about it, Joe? What can you tell me about his injuries?

JOE OLIVER, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: About his injuries? About his broken nose and about the gashes on the back of his head?

GRACE: Yes.

OLIVER: That they happened. We are efforting, rather, a picture that was taken by one of the police investigators on the scene on an iPhone before George was cleaned up to show the severity of the beating.

GRACE: OK, that`s going to go a long way if that really exists.

If this is true, then why in the heck was a police officer on the scene taking photographs of Zimmerman's injuries with an I-phone and not following the standard operating procedure?



~jmo~

Great find! I knew that picture had to have been taken by LE. Now to answer, why? And why was GZ on a cell phone and not in handcuffs?

Jmo

BBM

WHY indeed, and furthermore, just HOW did it manage to wind up being released to the media immediately before he was set to appear in court?

Does GZ really have friends and/or sympathizers in the esteemed SPD as some have speculated?

 

[Sensei]

Great find! I knew that picture had to have been taken by LE. Now to answer, why? And why was GZ on a cell phone and not in handcuffs?

Jmo

Yes, why was GZ on a cell phone and not in handcuffs? And please tell me that this is NOT the only picture that was taken of these injuries...I find that completely incredible. There should be pictures taken with a reasonable digital camera and not a I phone, pictures of different angles and pictures with something that will show scale, as well as pictures of the injury once cleaned up.... I am medical, we DOCUMENT and then we document some more, we have progress notes about our progress notes, and addendums to that, so maybe I am asking too much but in my world that injury no matter how he said it happened would generate 10 pictures and 4-5 pages of documentation complete with measurements...am I asking too much?

 

[Zak]

That is not what the law is about though. You can confront anyone you feel like, that does not entitle them to attack you. As long as you are not threatening them directly.

If the scenario unfolded as GZ confronting TM, and then TM attacking him, CZ would have every right to use lethal force to defend himself according to the law. He was not required to back off or run away in that scenario.

I think what is confusing people is that a provocative act is not the same as an agressive act. According to the evidence we have so far GZ was behaving in a provocative manner, but not in an aggressive manner. What appears to have happened is that TM responded to the provocation with aggression, which is what led to him being dead.

But, in that scenario GZ would not have done anything wrong according to Florida law. Now, is the stand your ground law a wise law? That is a different question. IMO it is a foolish law, the use of deadly force should allways be subject to judical examination no matter what the circumstances. If someone really is defending themselves legitimately then it should be clear.

Based on the evidence we know so far, I would say that the prosecutor is responding to public sentiment rather than the facts of the case. Probably what will happen is that eventually the charges will be dismissed, but by dragging GZ through this process the prosecutor is trying to make a statement.

I think the moral of this story is that no matter how provocative someone may be, you should not attack them. Especially in a state like Florida, because once you do that you open the door for just about anything.

Great post, thank you. That is the SYG law as I understand it. It doesn't matter how much any of us like it or not, it's the current law. Last night I listened to (I think it was Sunday nights) Websleuths radio program in which Tricia interviewed attorney Richard Hornsby. I suggest that everyone listen to that program for a better understanding. Tricia ask some great questions of Hornsby with different scenario's to get a better understanding of SYG.

 

[JeannaT]

GZ was considerably larger than TM. Height isn't the issue, weight is, as evinced in weight classes for boxing, etc. GZ might have been two weight classes above TM, in fact, so the only person who could/should feel a fear owing to size is TM.

But let's not forget that GZ had been a bouncer. How reasonable would it be for him to be deathly afraid of a skinny kid, especially when he was armed and had left his car to engage him? Not reasonable at all.

I would call GZ considerably smaller than Trayvon. Did you see him in court? He's a little man. I would guess 160, 5'7". Trayvon is 160, 6+ feet tall.

 

[JeannaT]

I also live in a cul de sac on a hill in the suburbs of LA. I always see people I don't recognize walking their dogs, looking at the view, even kids parked in cars making out... I always check to make sure nothing suspicious is going on and if not I go back inside the house. If I were suspicious of every person I didn't recognize I'd be calling 911 on a daily basis. I guess I live in a more populated area than you do. If it were raining and someone had a hoodie on I would just assume they didn't want to get their head or hair wet. I've worn hoodies myself walking in the rain.

What if, as you stopped to watch them, they became agitated and clearly tried to get away from your view? Would you consider that suspicious?

 

[PaintingAnemone]

FWIW at 5'8, 185 pounds, Zimmerman is overweight and pretty close to being obese...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/diet.fitness/02/12/tool.calculator.bmi/index.html

BMI doesn't account for muscle weight, and Zimmerman looked quite buff and healthy in the police video from that night, so I would suggest that his weight advantage was all muscle - which makes it even more questionable to me that a slim kid of approx. 145 was able to subdue him all that easily. Although I readily concede that strength born of desperation can be quite a fearsome thing.

 

[annalia]

Wow, was just looking through some old transcripts, etc. from previous interviews and came across something very interesting in regards to who might have taken the photograph of the "injuries" on the back of Zimmerman's head. Tell me what you guys think (keep in mind that this is coming from Joe Oliver who we all know has been completely discredited as to his relationship with Zimmerman).

GRACE: OK, to you, Steve Helling, I want to clear something up and you may know the answer. You`re on the scene. I want to clear up Zimmerman`s medical treatment because yesterday -- last night I thought they took -- police took him straight to a police interrogation room. I now understand he got some medical treatment from a fire person at the scene, then they took him to interrogation.

But what do we know? Did he really break his nose? Did he really have a gash on his head that need stitches?

HELLING: Well, you know, obviously that`s what we`ve heard. I haven`t seen any medical reports to back that up.

GRACE: All right. OK, Joe Oliver --

HELLING: But you know, that`s what he`s saying.

GRACE: Let`s see Joe Oliver and Steve Helling. What about it, Joe? What can you tell me about his injuries?

JOE OLIVER, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: About his injuries? About his broken nose and about the gashes on the back of his head?

GRACE: Yes.

OLIVER: That they happened. We are efforting, rather, a picture that was taken by one of the police investigators on the scene on an iPhone before George was cleaned up to show the severity of the beating.

GRACE: OK, that`s going to go a long way if that really exists.

If this is true, then why in the heck was a police officer on the scene taking photographs of Zimmerman's injuries with an I-phone and not following the standard operating procedure?



~jmo~

Very strange. If this is the same picture, wasn't it reported that it was taken by a witness?

If that was taken by LE, it would answer the question of how someone was able to get that close to him. It brings up a whole new slew of questions though.


***** Just an FYI, regarding that bloody photo, here is a site that tells whether or not a photo has been photoshopped, enhanced or tweaked.

http://www.pskiller.com

It gave an interesting response when I tried it but I could have done something wrong so I don't want to say what it was.

And JFTR in case anyone wonders, I did check with grandmaj to see if it was ok to post that link.

JMHO

 

[cityslick]

I am not saying that it was fact, I am saying that by George Zimmerman's own narrative of he night his own words lead to the conclusion that Trayvon was attempting to get away from him....whether he was actually running or George just said that and Trayvon merely stepped around the corner of the building to get away from him is irrelevant. Trayvon was very close to the place where he was staying...he was not found across the complex or in an area that would make anyone say, "Well why was he over there" his path was leading him to his house, while George has thus far given no logical reasonable or sensible reason for being where he was at the time of the incident, there have been stories floated as to why he was there but they truly offend common sense, the only reason for George to have been where he shot Trayvon was if he was continuing to follow and eventually caught up to Trayvon. IMO JMHO and stuff.

It's relevant if we're talking about if TM really was in 'fear' of GZ and how can we prove that he was. And so take it a step foward, if TM really wasn't in 'fear' of GZ and it's somehow proven that TM started the physical confrontation, then how would that play into the SYG law?

 

[cityslick]

If this case wasn't so damn sad in that a beautiful kid was gunned down in cold blood, it would be hilarious with all these screw ups. Zimmerman's friends and family are going to be his downfall with all their stories.

Oliver states the photo was taken by LE on an I-phone, Taaffe states the photo was taken by one of the neighbors which he knows.


~jmo~

How would you know there wasn't a second photo that was taken by LE that hasn't been leaked yet?

 

[CathyinTexas]

Totally agree
Even TM Running was a cause for suspicion to GZ.
If it was a police officer watching he would find that suspicious.
If it was a perp watching he would find catching a running prey a challenge.
I think in GZ's MIND GZ wore both hats. TM was in a no-win situation once GZ made that call, GZ was meeting a mental challenge.

I doubt TM would have run from a police car or officer in uniform that night. I think GZ was driving slowly following Trayvon first in his car. It was not marked as LE, he wasn't dressed as LE, he a was stranger, following TM in the dark. The same scenario would scare any of us if it happened just that way. Most forget that TM was a kid, just 2 weeks past his 16th birthday, which might have played a part. I do think though that when he told his gf about it and conveyed his fear, she told him to RUN! I think that is when he ran and GZ noted that he ran, then he stopped running, and said he would walk fast as he might have at that moment felt foolish for running. If he had continued to run till he reached his destination he might have lost GZ and been alive today. moo

 

[cityslick]

IMO, Trayvon Martin is not on trial. His intentions, his reasonings, or the timing of his actions can never be addressed in this trial because he is dead. The one who WILL have to convince a jury of his intentions, reasonings, and most importantly the timing of his actions is Trayvon's accused murderer, George Zimmerman. As to Trayvon's running rate and mathmatical calculations as to where that would or wouldn't place him at any given point in time, let me ask you something. Is there anyone, anywhere, other than his accused murderer, that has said Trayvon was running?

IMO, a very real part of George Zimmerman's trial is going to involve the last sentence of this comment:



Actually if you check the recording and/or a transcript of the 911 call you will find that George said TM was running at [2:08] into a call that ended at [4:07], so he was actually on the phone with 911 for 2 minutes, not 3. Be that as it may, however, after the bond hearing and Attorney O'Mara's redirect questioning of Investigator Gilbreath we now have what is our 3rd verification of what George told LE that night. Aside from the questioning at the Bond Hearing, we have Robert Zimmerman's interview with Sean Hannity, as well as the "leaked" article at the Orlando Sentinel. ALL THREE describe the same path of movement for Mr, Zimmerman.

(1) He got out of his truck [2:08]

(2) He followed Trayvon until the dispatcher "told" him to stop with "We don't need you to do that" [2:26]

(3) He stopped following him and continued on to find an address/street sign.

(4) He got an address and was walking back to his truck when attacked by Trayvon.

That's George Zimmerman's story. His attorney has now committed it to record.

Instead of calculating how far Trayvon could've ran, why not be the first one to answer a question I have asked repeatedly in this forum? Why not calculate an answer to a question that George Zimmerman is surely going to have to answer at trial? If George got out of his truck at [2:08] and follows Trayvon for 18 seconds, then continues walking an additional 80 feet to the next street over for an address, then starts walking back to his truck and was assaulted by Trayvon at the point where the sidewalks intersect, how long was it after he got out of his truck that this attack supposedly started?

Feel free to have George running, walking, or hopping on a pogo stick in your calculation of time and distance for this path of movement described by his attorney.

Then compare that to when he got off the phone with 911, because George Zimmerman is surely going to have to before this is all over.

His defense is simply going to be that he was attacked by simply asking him 'what are you doing here'. TM's movements are relevant, because it goes to show if TM really was 'in fear' of GZ when GZ confronted him. Nobody anywhere has any proof of who started the physical confrontation.

 

[Adrienne37]

I would call GZ considerably smaller than Trayvon. Did you see him in court? He's a little man. I would guess 160, 5'7". Trayvon is 160, 6+ feet tall.

Well considering he had a gun and Trayvon had Skittles, I'd say Zimmerman was the bigger of the 2. Yep, a "big man."


~jmo~

 

[RANCH]

I would call GZ considerably smaller than Trayvon. Did you see him in court? He's a little man. I would guess 160, 5'7". Trayvon is 160, 6+ feet tall.

I'm not sure exactly how tall and how much either person weighed that night. What could matter more is who was more physically fit. When I was 17-18yrs old I was at my peak in regards to strength and overall fitness. I was in HS, got regular exercise in PE class and the job I had was very physical. By the time I was 28yrs old I didn't get near the exercise that I did when I was younger because of the type of job I had and my lifestyle. I wasn't nearly as strong at 28 as I was at 17yrs old. I have know idea of how psychically fit GZ or Trayvon was that night but I can speculate. JMO.

 

[Isabelle]

Great find! I knew that picture had to have been taken by LE. Now to answer, why? And why was GZ on a cell phone and not in handcuffs?

Jmo

Probably had buds at SPD!

 

[Sensei]

It's relevant if we're talking about if TM really was in 'fear' of GZ and how can we prove that he was. And so take it a step foward, if TM really wasn't in 'fear' of GZ and it's somehow proven that TM started the physical confrontation, then how would that play into the SYG law?

Trayvon is DEAD, so how do you prove that he really wasn't in fear? What you can do is look at his behavior immediately prior to the incident and that will tell you some things, what is far more telling is GZ's behavior immediately prior to the incident.

I just don't think that who threw the first punch is relevant when you take into the entire situation....GZ began the incident with the call and ended it with the shooting and he had control and could have exited stage left at any time between the beginning and the end, who threw the first punch is IMO irrelevant to the fact that the whole train was started by GZ and his loaded gun. IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[seattlechiquita]

Well considering he had a gun and Trayvon had Skittles, I'd say Zimmerman was the bigger of the 2. Yep, a "big man."


~jmo~

Best. Post. Ever. :rocker:

 

[annalia]

Well considering he had a gun and Trayvon had Skittles, I'd say Zimmerman was the bigger of the 2. Yep, a "big man."


~jmo~

And weren't all of his family and friends talking about how much weight he had lost from all this stress he's under? What he looked like in that oversized suit in court means nothing.

GZ was plenty muscular looking in the jail video, and he isn't all that much shorter that Trayvon was.

JMHO

 

[cityslick]

Trayvon is DEAD, so how do you prove that he really wasn't in fear? What you can do is look at his behavior immediately prior to the incident and that will tell you some things, what is far more telling is GZ's behavior immediately prior to the incident.

I just don't think that who threw the first punch is relevant when you take into the entire situation....GZ began the incident with the call and ended it with the shooting and he had control and could have exited stage left at any time between the beginning and the end, who threw the first punch is IMO irrelevant to the fact that the whole train was started by GZ and his loaded gun. IMO JMHO and stuff.

I'm just saying what the argument is going to be in court. DT is going to bring up what exactly TM was doing that night and then they are going to apply SYG over that. They are going to say that simply following TM isn't a crime, that GZ was not threatening TM in any way, TM did not feel threatened based on his movements as well as his conversation to his GF, etc, etc, etc.