17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #32

[Sensei]

Just make sure you let the other person swing first.

Actually, the question under SYG (as I understand it--IANAL) is not whether GZ was right to follow and ask, but whether it was illegal to do so. It wasn't, so in theory, GZ doesn't lose his SYG rights for asking the question.

Now IMO either the SA is going to argue that GZ's pursuit with an intent to detain was illegal (hard to prove) or she is going to rely on the gf's testimony to argue that GZ pushed TM first. Just my speculation at this point...

BBM, The way I understand the testimony in the bond hearing the Investigator seemed to be saying that there was something about either where or what position they were in when GZ fired the gun, or the timing of the shot or something, and I think perhaps when we know what the irregularity it that is going to be the basis of the charges and the focus of the argument for Murder 2 in Court, but like you simply speculation at this point.

 

[LinasK]

Give me a few minutes. I know of a cowboy with a black hat that may like to take this detail. :what:

No!!!! Say it ain't so! First Jose, then Lenny... they keep coming back like bad pennies.

 

[Adrienne37]

Yet another interview by O'Mara...

George Zimmerman afraid for his safety, lawyer says

MIAMI -- George Zimmerman spent his first 24 hours free on bail "on his own" and in fear of his life, his attorney said in a television interview Monday night.

O'Mara said the security and housing were being paid for by Zimmerman's family. It was unclear how much has been raised from websites set up to collect donations, he said. One site has about $800 and another a few thousand dollars, but he was not certain that anyone had withdrawn any funds, he told CNN's Anderson Cooper.

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/04/24/3574145/george-zimmerman-afraid-for-his.html

 

[uvamerica]

I got this link from the last thread of GZ's 911 calls

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history.html#document/p44

 

[Angelonline]

Has anyone posted this?
"News 5's Lauren Vargas spoke with a neighbor who also heard a member of the mob that beat Matthew Owens say "Now thats justice for Trayvon."
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/23/50/man-beaten-mob-critical-condition-ar-3659891/

FYI: This is from our local station out of Mobile Alabama and is a MSM link.

Another Link - http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...ob-claiming-justice-trayvon-article-1.1066893

 

[HiHater]

Yet another interview by O'Mara...

George Zimmerman afraid for his safety, lawyer says

MIAMI -- George Zimmerman spent his first 24 hours free on bail "on his own" and in fear of his life, his attorney said in a television interview Monday night.

O'Mara said the security and housing were being paid for by Zimmerman's family. It was unclear how much has been raised from websites set up to collect donations, he said. One site has about $800 and another a few thousand dollars, but he was not certain that anyone had withdrawn any funds, he told CNN's Anderson Cooper.

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/04/24/3574145/george-zimmerman-afraid-for-his.html

From the link: Court records show O'Mara filed a demand on April 16 that prosecutors let him examine or copy any evidence they have in the case within 15 days.

When O'Mara gets the evidence, is that when it becomes public record? Anyone know?

 

[suzihawk]

There are so many things I don't understand.

I don't understand why 300 million Americans all need to carry handguns.

But if we do, why must they be concealed? Wouldn't they serve as better deterrents if they were visible?

As for Florida law, it seems that you can take your concealed weapon, track down any friend or stranger, provoke an argument and then use that as an excuse to kill.

Even better, do it in the dark when nobody is looking. Then the State is supposed to just take your word for what happened.

Ya know, Nova... I'm not a gun person and this has always seemed backwards to me. If you have a permit you have to hide your weapon. But if you don't, you can display it anywhere you like. IDK, it's crazy.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

All you have to do is type in "road rash" in Google images and you'll get all sorts of really nice injuries caused by concrete or asphalt. Just look at a couple of them and compare them to Zimmerman's "injuries" and you can easily see that his head was not repeatedly slammed into anything with concrete.


~jmo~

Oh gosh yes, thank you. Until you said this I had forgotten my own two road rash injuries years ago after falling on rollerblades.

Jumping off from this:

In neither of those instances would it have required enhanced photography to make my injuries visible.

Yes, yes, I know GZ wasn't on rollerblades. I also know bruises take a while to develop. But in my own experience a substantial blow to concrete results in nearly immediate swelling in a fleshy area like my...er...road rage injury location.

Which reminds me of another accident I had, falling from a stepstool onto the concrete floor of my garage. Again, the fleshy area that took the most force from the blow was swelling and turning purple well within a 35-minute timeframe equalling that between GZ shooting TM and being seen in the PD surveillance video.

It seems to me the swelling would be even worse in a non-fleshy location like the skull. But I'm no doctor.

Perhaps the medical types here will weigh in?

Very good point, Adrienne.

ETA REQUISITE JMO, MOO, etc.

 

[grammieto5]

IANAL, but I believe the judge in that case ruled that the shooter (the father on the bicycle) had a legal right to follow his speeding neighbor down the block to the speeder's house.

Apparently, the judge ruled that the confrontation didn't start until sometime during the conversation that ensued and that the speeder was the "First Aggressor" (see Hornsby) at that time. Therefore, the shooter had a right to use deadly force because at that time he feared for his life.

It probably didn't help that the speeder was drunk and the first to use physical force.

In this case wasn't the person who was shot the passenger?

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Ya know, Nova... I'm not a gun person and this has always seemed backwards to me. If you have a permit you have to hide your weapon. But if you don't, you can display it anywhere you like. IDK, it's crazy.

It has to do with armed robbery and the way you display a gun somewhat I think. Say you are an armed guard or security guard with a gun exposed on your hip. You have to put your hand on that gun to imply you would use it in a hold up but you go into a store and unzip your jacket and show your gun you got a problem.

 

[HiHater]

Oh gosh yes, thank you. Until you said this I had forgotten my own two road rash injuries years ago after falling on rollerblades.

Jumping off from this:

In neither of those instances would it have required enhanced photography to make my injuries visible.

Yes, yes, I know GZ wasn't on rollerblades. I also know bruises take a while to develop. But in my own experience a substantial blow to concrete results in nearly immediate swelling in a fleshy area like my...er...road rage injury location.

Which reminds me of another accident I had, falling from a stepstool onto the concrete floor of my garage. Again, the fleshy area that took the most force from the blow was swelling and turning purple well within a 35-minute timeframe equalling that between GZ shooting TM and being seen in the PD surveillance video.

It seems to me the swelling would be even worse in a non-fleshy location like the skull. But I'm no doctor.

Perhaps the medical types here will weigh in?

Very good point, Adrienne.

ETA REQUISITE JMO, MOO, etc.

You had a road rage injury? :what:

Just kidding, I realize that was probably a typo...?

 

[RANCH]

Ya know, Nova... I'm not a gun person and this has always seemed backwards to me. If you have a permit you have to hide your weapon. But if you don't, you can display it anywhere you like. IDK, it's crazy.

BBM
What do you mean by "display" and are you talking about Florida?

 

[Sensei]

Questions for the legal types.

1. What are the arguments for and against unsealing the records, and who benefits/loses out either way?

2. Can GZ be charged with perjury since he told TM's parents in his apology that he didn't know how old TM was, that he thought TM was just a little younger than himself, but on the PD call he clearly states that TM is in his late teens?

Thanks.

The media always file papers to have records unsealed so that they can of course make mistakes about what they say....it happens every time.

The argument for is that the Courts need transparency, that way nothing underhanded can go undetected, and all that paperwork is public record

The argument against is of course the fact that too much information taints the Jury pool since ideally the Jury should contain 12 people who don't read, don't watch the news and have heard as little about the case as possible so that they haven't already formed an opinion....NO ONE on WS would be considered fit for Jury duty on this one.

We don't do trial by ambush so reciprocal discovery means that all parties know exactly what is available it's only how they argue it at trial that is at issue.

It is highly doubtful that GZ would be charged with perjury for that even though we all know it is a lie I don't know if he COULD I guess it's possible, but I am not sure.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

IANAL, but I believe the judge in that case ruled that the shooter (the father on the bicycle) had a legal right to follow his speeding neighbor down the block to the speeder's house.

Apparently, the judge ruled that the confrontation didn't start until sometime during the conversation that ensued and that the speeder was the "First Aggressor" (see Hornsby) at that time. Therefore, the shooter had a right to use deadly force because at that time he feared for his life.

It probably didn't help that the speeder was drunk and the first to use physical force.

There are a lot of differences in the two cases. There was a witness and, the guy was drunk and the guy who did the shooting did not lie about what happened.

 

[HiHater]

Ya know, Nova... I'm not a gun person and this has always seemed backwards to me. If you have a permit you have to hide your weapon. But if you don't, you can display it anywhere you like. IDK, it's crazy.

I'm not a gun person either...My sister bought her first gun the other day, and the process shocked me! All she did is fill out a paper, show her ID, the lady called and verified her background, and voila. This took less than 20 minutes!!!

 

[Reader]

The night of Feb. 26, Zimmerman made a non-emergency call to police before fatally shooting Martin, in which he told a dispatcher, "This guy looks like he's up to no good, on drugs or something."

But law enforcement expert Rod Wheeler who listened to the tapes tells ABC News that Zimmerman, not Martin, sounded intoxicated in the police recordings of the 911 calls.

"When I listened to the 911 tape the first thing that came to my mind is this guy sounds intoxicated. Notice how he's slurring his words. We as trained law enforcement officers, we know how to listen for that right away and I think that's going to be an important element of this entire investigation," Wheeler said.

http://gma.yahoo.com/neighborhood-w...on-martin-wanted-cop-211535382--abc-news.html

IMOO

Hey, maybe this 'never gets mad' guy had a fight with his wife and had gone out and had a few beers after she told him to get out for a while. Maybe he was just mad at the world because he is a loser, can't complete a 2-year college program to save his life, can't get to be a policeman or judge like dad, can't be successful like maybe his other siblings are.....he's just a watchman....so he decides he will show everybody that he CAN do that job and do it well...he then sees Trayvon....and we know what happened while he is trying to prove how great he is at this watchman job....

Makes about as much sense as some of the stuff I've been reading that sounds straight out of a defense lawyer's mouth.....IMOO

 

[Karmady]

I have listened to the call over and over again and for the life of me I don't hear a slurring of words. In fact, I'm going to go listen one more time to see if I've missed something.

I don't hear it either GZ's 911 call, but I did post a while back that one of the other female 911 callers did sound completely in the bag. But then I noticed that the dispatcher sounded a little sluggish, too. So I chalked it up to the recording. jmo

 

[IzzyBlanche]

You had a road rage injury? :what:

Just kidding, I realize that was probably a typo...?

LOL yes it was and I did say road rash first. :floorlaugh:

 

[suzihawk]

BBM
What do you mean by "display" and are you talking about Florida?

Well, I dunno. As I said, I'm not a gun person. If you have a conceal permit, you have to keep it out of sight/hidden. So I'm assuming if you don't have a permit, you can wear it strapped to your hip or wherever you want. Where everyone can plainly see it - on display. Which seems a lot more intimidating to me. Like I said, seems backwards.

 

[Karmady]

The people who wrote (sponsored, it was written by the gun right lobbying groups) but I will go with the people who wrote say it wasn't intended for these cases but the defense attorneys that have used it successfully and the prosecutors that have lost to say they are wrong. The way it is written that is exactly how it has been used and now those case have set preceding standards for current cases.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/article1222930.ece
The men responsible for Florida's controversial "stand your ground'' law are certain about one thing: Because of his actions before he pulled the trigger and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman is not protected from criminal prosecution.

Because Zimmerman exited his vehicle, because he followed Martin, because his actions put him in a situation where he felt it necessary to shoot a boy dead, he should be booked, jailed and forced to face a jury of his peers.

Said Durell Peaden, the former Republican senator from Crestview who sponsored the bill: "The guy lost his defense right then. When he said, 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."

Said Jeb Bush, the governor who signed the bill into law: "Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn't mean chase after somebody who's turned their back."

But they are wrong.

Since its passage in 2005, the "stand your ground'' law has protected people who have pursued another, initiated a confrontation and then used deadly force to defend themselves. Citing the law, judges have granted immunity to killers who put themselves in danger, so long as their pursuit was not criminal, so long as the person using force had a right to be there, and so long as he could convince the judge he was in fear of great danger or death.

snipped

Lawyers say the bill's supporters are either uninformed or politically motivated.

"That's not what the law says," said Steven Romine, a Tampa Bay lawyer who has invoked "stand your ground" successfully. "They might think that in their own heads, but it's just not true.
snipped

Prosecutors, who are generally critical of the law, agree.

Impatient, isn't it also true that it wouldn't matter even if they 100% believe what they are saying? It's not like the judge is going to listen to testimony about their legislative intent at an SYG hearing in a pending criminal case, right? Sounds like they're just setting up the "repeal SYG" plank of their next campaign to me. jmo And, btw, where were they on the other cases that you've been so helpful to bring forward?