17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #32

[Adrienne37]

I need to quit reading all these older articles because I keep finding a little more and little more out about who Zimmerman really is and how this case was handled from the get go...

Neighbor Frank Taaffe worries it went too far, but believes Zimmerman had good intentions.

"I can't speak for him, I just know he's a good person and really cares for the neighborhood," said Taaffe.

WFTV also learned that Zimmerman has been the victim of violence at least twice in the past. He was working security for a party at an Altamonte Springs home in 2005 and residents said someone broke his jaw when he tried to break up a fight.

That same year, he was robbed at gunpoint at a 7-Eleven after eating dinner at a nearby Chili's restaurant.


http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/

 

[AngelWings444]

I'm not forgetting that at all. It has no relevance whatsoever, since GZ was breaking no laws for simply following someone, especially in a private gated community.

Being followed by a crazy person is a pretty unlikely situation in a gated community. Much more likely is it's someone like a busybody on the board of the HOA, or some other do-gooder resident snooping around to make sure nobody unauthorized is in the community (as GZ turned out to be).

But the more important point is that noticing someone unfamiliar walking around, thinking they're suspicious, calling the police to report them, and getting out of one's vehicle to follow them, even if told by the police dispatcher that that is unnecessary, is all perfectly legal. As far as I know, there is absolutely nothing legally wrong with doing any and all of that, and it's a perfectly normal and reasonable thing to do in a private gated community, especially by the neighborhood watch dude.

BBM - It's very likely and did happen. Trayvon was followed by a crazy person in a gated community, and was killed. :twocents:

Back to catching up.

 

[chefmom]

I just found this on the 18th Judicial Circuit Court documents list:

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/4-24-12a.pdf

Notice of Appearance, Waiver of Arraignment, Written Plea, Demand for Discovery, Request for Jury Trial

Dated 4/12/12 and hand delivered to SA that date

So, I guess GZ will not be claiming the SYG defense before a judge and asking for the charges to be dropped. Looks like he wants to go before a jury where he most likely will claim self-defense. JMO

 

[Allusonz]

All due respect to Mr. Hornsby, but 2 of the lawmakers that crafted the SYG said that GZ does not fall under this defense.

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/...pply-To-Trayvon-Martin-Shooter-143684626.html



Rep. Dennis Baxley said it on Anderson Cooper too, but I'm still looking for that video.

They may of introduced/written this law but it does not mean that is how it is being applied as can be seen by the diverse view points of both defense lawyers and prosecutors.

I believe that it is a law that needs to be revisited which is what will probably happen.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

That's quite a leap. First to assume that no mention of how old he was suggests he was significantly older. Second, to conclude that that proves GZ is willing to confront younger "kids", but not older men.

Another explanation is that GZ was just observing in both cases, and in the TM case, he lost TM, and then TM found and confronted GZ.

I wonder how he lost this suspect? Did he follow him and if so how did he lose him? Wonder why super watchman George just didn't pull out his phone or camera and take a picture of the suspect?

 

[RANCH]

I just found this on the 18th Judicial Circuit Court documents list:

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/4-24-12a.pdf

Notice of Appearance, Waiver of Arraignment, Written Plea, Demand for Discovery, Request for Jury Trial

Dated 4/12/12 and hand delivered to SA that date

I saw this yesterday. You underlined "Request for Jury Trial." Do you think he should not have done that?

 

[RANCH]

So, I guess GZ will not be claiming the SYG defense before a judge and asking for the charges to be dropped. Looks like he wants to go before a jury where he most likely will claim self-defense. JMO

What makes you say that? He can't ask for an motion on immunity later?

 

[Dr.Fessel]

~snip


Is Francis' place on the same end of the complex as the Rec Bldg

wonder could he see that area from his backyard....?

According to the police report Francis apartment is at 1460 retreat view circle. It is near the pedestrian path some say Trayvon came in on.

 

[grandmaj]

Is Document Cloud an acceptable link? If it is: http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history.html

Yes that is fine for the Police Log. I'm sorry for the confusion. All is well.

 

[RANCH]

I was looking up another case in another thread but got distracted by the TM headlines and how pro GZ they appear to be, especially to a casual reader.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57420076/zimmermans-not-guilty-plea-flew-under-the-radar/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162...ade-smart-move/?tag=contentBody;storyMediaBox

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162...rents-i-am-sorry/?tag=contentMain;contentBody

How does this headline that a casual reader may see be considered "pro-GZ?"

Zimmerman's not guilty plea flew under the radar

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57420076/zimmermans-not-guilty-plea-flew-under-the-radar/

 

[Karmady]

So, I guess GZ will not be claiming the SYG defense before a judge and asking for the charges to be dropped. Looks like he wants to go before a jury where he most likely will claim self-defense. JMO

Imo, not at all. Just SOP. It means nothing to request a jury except that, in the event it goes to trial, you will get one if you're entitled. I think you have to, or waive it. I don't think it has any bearing on whether an SYG preliminary hearing will be requested. jmo

 

[grandmaj]

Yes but there has to be some timeline on SYG right? Or do they start through the process and then a hearing is requested before trial? Think of the money and time expended to prepare for a trial if the SYG is upheld in this case? Anyone know the particulars of when this hearing would be requested?

 

[Ninety5rpm]

This is not the exact article I was looking for but it is similar. I wouldn't have thought the gated part would contribute that much to how this incident happened but it has been really interested to read about...
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/opinion/the-gated-community-mentality.html?_r=1

I want to expand on this because it goes back to the point I made in my first post on this thread, answering why GZ ever left his vehicle.

You really have to understand the "gated community mentality" to get it. On a public street everyone has a right to be there. I can get on a plane, fly to any city, get in a rent a car, drive around, park, and walk down any street, and really nobody has any reason to suspect me.

But if I drive into a private gated community, it all changes. Completely. People expect to know others. If they don't recognize you, they look at how you look, what you're driving, what your'e wearing, to determine if you belong. And if they can't tell, they might confront you, or call security, just to make sure. This is practically unheard of in a public street context.

So I think that's why people have such a hard time understanding GZ's attitude and behavior. Why did he get out of the car? Why did he follow TM? The answer is: gated community mentality. Perfectly normal and legal.

 

[Reader]

I saw this yesterday. You underlined "Request for Jury Trial." Do you think he should not have done that?

Nope, I think MOM will do what he thinks is best for his client.

Just underlined it to bring it to everybody's attention.

 

[Adrienne37]

http://floridastandyourground.org/

 

[HiHater]

I want to expand on this because it goes back to the point I made in my first post on this thread, answering why GZ ever left his vehicle.

You really have to understand the "gated community mentality" to get it. On a public street everyone has a right to be there. I can get on a plane, fly to any city, get in a rent a car, drive around, park, and walk down any street, and really nobody has any reason to suspect me.

But if I drive into a private gated community, it all changes. Completely. People expect to know others. If they don't recognize you, they look at how you look, what you're driving, what your'e wearing, to determine if you belong. And if they can't tell, they might confront you, or call security, just to make sure. This is practically unheard of in a public street context.

So I think that's why people have such a hard time understanding GZ's attitude and behavior. Why did he get out of the car? Why did he follow TM? The answer is: gated community mentality. Perfectly normal and legal.

Can you provide a link, or any source, that says laws don't apply in gated communities?

Or any link that says gated communities have streets that aren't for public use (to include guests of residents)?

Can you also provide me with something, anything, that would indicate George Zimmerman was acquainted with even half of the people who lived in those 260 units?

None of the witnesses who called 911 seemed to know who he was. So you're already down by 7.

Thanks in advance.

 

[RANCH]

Yes but there has to be some timeline on SYG right? Or do they start through the process and then a hearing is requested before trial? Think of the money and time expended to prepare for a trial if the SYG is upheld in this case? Anyone know the particulars of when this hearing would be requested?

That was a question I was going to ask R Hornsby on the last Websleuths Radio show. I would like to know when to expect an immunity hearing and what he thought the odds of GZ winning it. But I got interrupted and never got a chance to ask.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

You know when I zoom in here it appears Francis' lives right on the walk in path. It is the only place off the street there is no fence. Walk right in beside his apartment.

[ame="http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1460+Retreat+View+Circle,+Sanford,+FL&hl=en&ll=28.79327,-81.332425&spn=0.000859,0.001206&sll=28.793042,-81.331618&sspn=0.001718,0.002411&oq=1460+retreat+view+circle&t=h&hnear=1460+Retreat+View+Cir,+Sanford,+Florida+32771&z=20"]1460 Retreat View Circle, Sanford, FL - Google Maps[/ame]

 

[jaded cat]

Impatient, isn't it also true that it wouldn't matter even if they 100% believe what they are saying? It's not like the judge is going to listen to testimony about their legislative intent at an SYG hearing in a pending criminal case, right? Sounds like they're just setting up the "repeal SYG" plank of their next campaign to me. jmo And, btw, where were they on the other cases that you've been so helpful to bring forward?

Yes, yes, yes, 1000 times yes.

 

[Adrienne37]

A bit more in depth discussion regarding SYG (from another defense attorney in Jax, FL)

When does Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” Law Not Apply?

Contrary to recent assertions made in the New York Times by UCLA Law Professor Adam Winkler, there are multiple statutory provisions limiting the scope of Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law.

Under Section 776.013(3), the “no duty of retreat” rule will not apply to a person who is engaged in an unlawful activity or is in a place where he or she has no right to be. Other provisions preclude a defendant from raising a self-defense claim altogether. Under Section 776.041, the justifications for the use of force do not apply if the accused is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of a forcible felony.

The justifications for use of force will also not apply where the evidence establishes that the defendant initially provoked violence against him- or herself. To claim self-defense in such a scenario, Section 776.041 requires the defendant to demonstrate that he or she used every reasonable means short of deadly force to extricate him- or herself from the situation, and that the degree of force used by the other person (the initial non-aggressor) led the defendant to reasonably believe that he or she was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. Alternatively, a defendant who is an initial aggressor may claim self-defense if: (1) in good faith, he or she withdrew from physical contact, (2) clearly indicated to the other person that he or she desired to withdraw and terminate the use of force, and (3) despite the communication and withdrawal, the other person continued or resumed the use of force. See Section 776.041(2)(b), Florida Statutes.

http://www.husseinandwebber.com/stand_your_ground.html