20/20 Special - The List: Who Killed Jonbenet? on 15 Jan 2021

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
very, very new here....please elaborate?

I have a couple of questions relating to some things I have read in this thread.

1. why the venom and vitriol toward Smit, and his family?

2. exactly what evidence is there to sustain the accusation that DNA involving someone outside the family is, in the opinions of those I’ve seen post here, ridiculous?

3. it was a stated fact of the program that the DNA didn’t match anyone in the Ramsey family...how can anyone here dispute that? With what evidence?

3. speaking of the DNA...
The very specific mention of “touch” DNA in the program as a major advancement in testing over the last decade.

Does anyone know if touch DNA testing was performed on the ransom note? I mean the hand does rub the paper as it moves across the page...especially if the note was written by a left handed person....then the writers DNA would be embedded in the ink.

As well; the shaft of the broken paint brush would have the DNA of the person who fashioned the garot, and pulled it tight.

4. lastly; the knot tied at the shaft end of the garot; that wasn’t just wrapped around the end and knotted. It was intricate and reminiscent of the Sageo knot used to tie the bow knots on samurai swords.

That knot too would have touch DNA embedded into it.

does anyone know if any of these questions have ever been asked; and what the answers have been?

respectfully

doc

ReconDoc83,
1. Its not vitriol, they will be nice people just misinformed.

2. There is zero forensic evidence linking to anyone outside the Ramsey house, that includes the DNA.

3. Might be true, but thats not the same as saying a Ramsey did not kill JonBenet.

4. The ligature fibers will host touch-dna as will JonBenet's clothing. The clothing was sent for testing and not all the results have been published, i.e. Burke Ramsey's or John Ramsey's touch-dna deposits have not been ruled out with Status: Not Present.

This is guaranteed to be a topic in future JonBenet documentaries once it is released.
 
very, very new here....please elaborate?

I have a couple of questions relating to some things I have read in this thread.

1. why the venom and vitriol toward Smit, and his family?

2. exactly what evidence is there to sustain the accusation that DNA involving someone outside the family is, in the opinions of those I’ve seen post here, ridiculous?

3. it was a stated fact of the program that the DNA didn’t match anyone in the Ramsey family...how can anyone here dispute that? With what evidence?

3. speaking of the DNA...
The very specific mention of “touch” DNA in the program as a major advancement in testing over the last decade.

Does anyone know if touch DNA testing was performed on the ransom note? I mean the hand does rub the paper as it moves across the page...especially if the note was written by a left handed person....then the writers DNA would be embedded in the ink.

As well; the shaft of the broken paint brush would have the DNA of the person who fashioned the garot, and pulled it tight.

4. lastly; the knot tied at the shaft end of the garot; that wasn’t just wrapped around the end and knotted. It was intricate and reminiscent of the Sageo knot used to tie the bow knots on samurai swords.

That knot too would have touch DNA embedded into it.

does anyone know if any of these questions have ever been asked; and what the answers have been?

respectfully

doc

1. Hugh?

5. sageo knot - Google Search
 
If you believe the DNA in Doubt story in its entirety, http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/file/fetch/130881084/DNA in doubt .pdf then why did it fail to mention the likelihood ratio that quantifies the match between the longJohns and the panties? Found here at the bottom of page 1 Bode Lab report date 6/20/08 http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/file/fetch/130877817/20080620-BodeReport.pdf

A recreation of the analysis can be seen in tabular format here... www.searchinGirl.com

There is evidence of an intruder, like it or not.
 
ReconDoc83,
1. Its not vitriol, they will be nice people just misinformed.

sorry, looks very vitriolic to me; as if a man, and then later his family who have been professionally investigating this crime for nearly 25 years...first hand might know more than those who simply want to “believe” that the Ramsey’s were involved based on a very long history of “hate rich white people”.

2. There is zero forensic evidence linking to anyone outside the Ramsey house, that includes the DNA.

wrong; the DNA report specifically notes that DNA found on the clothing, specifically the undergarments is directly linked to someone “other” than a family member.

as well the later 2008 documents also state clearly that no DNA evidence found on the clothing was linked to ANY Ramsey family member.

3. Might be true, but thats not the same as saying a Ramsey did not kill JonBenet.

sorry, but that is not how science nor evidence works. The lack of a fact is not an indication of guilt. You cannot prove a negative.

4. The ligature fibers will host touch-dna as will JonBenet's clothing. The clothing was sent for testing and not all the results have been published, i.e. Burke Ramsey's or John Ramsey's touch-dna deposits have not been ruled out with Status: Not Present.

actually that is exactly what has been proven; their DNA was not found on the tested items; specifically the undergarments where the semen / bodily fluids were recovered and tested.

you can in fact prove positives....positives are facts. The DNA was tested; it did not match ANY Ramsey family member...those are positive facts.

This is guaranteed to be a topic in future JonBenet documentaries once it is released.

another fact; that seems to not be mentioned anywhere. It is Colorado law since 1996; and updated in 2004, and 2008; and federal law since 1999, that any DNA collected from anyone in the course of a felony investigation has their DNA collected and uploaded to CODIS.

the insinuation that some previously captured / convicted serial killer was responsible for this crime is misguided and obtuse. If a previously known and apprehended serial attacker / rapist / killer captured after 1998 had been the culprit of this attack then CODIS DNA would have long ago implicated them in the crime.

the people who believe that a young Burke Ramsey was a sexual deviant, without any evidence; and then also believe he fashioned a garot with not only a broken paint brush that was used in multiple ways to violate and strangle this child is asinine. The knot in the rope was intricate and articulate; that isn’t the work of a child. And while her skull was fractured the autopsy clearly states that her strangulation was the cause of death.

there is no doubt she was subdued with a stun gun...anyone who has ever owned or carried one, especially in LEO or military service is trained in their use and placement for optimum exposure; and if you have ever been stunned with one...the marks that remain are long lasting, and sometimes permanent reminders.

the argument that either parent, or any parent, would need to subdue their 5yo child with a stun gun, not once, but twice, to force them to comply with their commands in the middle of the night is ridiculous. Not to mention the sadistic idea that either would sit around thinking about producing an elaborately knotted tool to garot their child.

I do find some things troubling; and again I find nowhere in documents that they have ever been answered.

Is there proof, data driven proof through logs that the alarm was actually set that night? Isn’t it possible that the intruder, which i firmly believe there was one, came in through an unlocked or unalarmed door / garage only exited through the basement window?

people have made a huge issue with “cobwebs”...but there were also no other debris either, no dirt, no leaves on the floor of the train room. So it is quite possible the impression of the shoe wasn’t left when the intruder entered...but when he left, which is also why the suitcase was there, to “boost up” into the window ledge.

As a military veteran who deployed numerous times in many locations and trained in many disciplines of defense and tactics... I look at those images and injuries and I keep coming back to one theory.

this intruder was likely military, possibly law enforcement, or a “wannabe” who used tools of opportunity, outside of the stun gun, to commit their acts. I believe the killer used a butt of a pistol to fracture her skull, though I see holes in my own hypothesis.

I cannot explain away the ransom note, or the ridiculous length of it; and I cannot actually explain the “reason” for killing her.

in context; you have stunned the child, she is unconscious, you have secured her hands and feet; she isn’t an escape risk; you have taped her mouth, she isn’t going to scream. Why crush her head? If it were a kidnapping why assault her in the home? Why not pick her up, take her out of the window, and carry her off?

I also wonder if the skull fracture was accidental from dropping her in the stairwell....but then why the garot?

look we have all seen programs and read stories about parents who kill their children; they smother them, they manually choke them, they drown them, they set their houses on fire, they poison them.....but I have never heard of a parent who uses a garot to strangle their child.

Anyway....I have Rambled on long enough.
 
911 call, audio analysis:

Audio Forensic Expert
Ed Primo?

Edward John Primeau?
Primeau Forensics consulting Agency Rochester Hills Michigan.
 
sorry, looks very vitriolic to me; as if a man, and then later his family who have been professionally investigating this crime for nearly 25 years...first hand might know more than those who simply want to “believe” that the Ramsey’s were involved based on a very long history of “hate rich white people”.

For reals?
That's an off-putting comment.
 
For reals?
That's an off-putting comment.

why?
The police set out in the beginning to accuse the Ramsey family; and from day one people have used their “wealth” and their protection of their constitutional civil liberties to ONLY interview and cooperate with police through their attorneys as a finger of guilt. Many people through the years have stated publicly “their money kept them out of jail”.

it has been “off-putting” to me for decades that without any proof, the court of public opinion has tried to ostracize and convict the Ramsey family because they knew how to defend their constitutional rights.

previous posts in this thread and others on this site reinforce that perspective.

many comments made elsewhere, and one in another thread states
if Ramsey were white trash or black, he would have been in prison long ago.

can’t be more clear than that.
 
sorry, looks very vitriolic to me; as if a man, and then later his family who have been professionally investigating this crime for nearly 25 years...first hand might know more than those who simply want to “believe” that the Ramsey’s were involved based on a very long history of “hate rich white people”.



wrong; the DNA report specifically notes that DNA found on the clothing, specifically the undergarments is directly linked to someone “other” than a family member.

as well the later 2008 documents also state clearly that no DNA evidence found on the clothing was linked to ANY Ramsey family member.



sorry, but that is not how science nor evidence works. The lack of a fact is not an indication of guilt. You cannot prove a negative.



actually that is exactly what has been proven; their DNA was not found on the tested items; specifically the undergarments where the semen / bodily fluids were recovered and tested.

you can in fact prove positives....positives are facts. The DNA was tested; it did not match ANY Ramsey family member...those are positive facts.



another fact; that seems to not be mentioned anywhere. It is Colorado law since 1996; and updated in 2004, and 2008; and federal law since 1999, that any DNA collected from anyone in the course of a felony investigation has their DNA collected and uploaded to CODIS.

the insinuation that some previously captured / convicted serial killer was responsible for this crime is misguided and obtuse. If a previously known and apprehended serial attacker / rapist / killer captured after 1998 had been the culprit of this attack then CODIS DNA would have long ago implicated them in the crime.

the people who believe that a young Burke Ramsey was a sexual deviant, without any evidence; and then also believe he fashioned a garot with not only a broken paint brush that was used in multiple ways to violate and strangle this child is asinine. The knot in the rope was intricate and articulate; that isn’t the work of a child. And while her skull was fractured the autopsy clearly states that her strangulation was the cause of death.

there is no doubt she was subdued with a stun gun...anyone who has ever owned or carried one, especially in LEO or military service is trained in their use and placement for optimum exposure; and if you have ever been stunned with one...the marks that remain are long lasting, and sometimes permanent reminders.

the argument that either parent, or any parent, would need to subdue their 5yo child with a stun gun, not once, but twice, to force them to comply with their commands in the middle of the night is ridiculous. Not to mention the sadistic idea that either would sit around thinking about producing an elaborately knotted tool to garot their child.

I do find some things troubling; and again I find nowhere in documents that they have ever been answered.

Is there proof, data driven proof through logs that the alarm was actually set that night? Isn’t it possible that the intruder, which i firmly believe there was one, came in through an unlocked or unalarmed door / garage only exited through the basement window?

people have made a huge issue with “cobwebs”...but there were also no other debris either, no dirt, no leaves on the floor of the train room. So it is quite possible the impression of the shoe wasn’t left when the intruder entered...but when he left, which is also why the suitcase was there, to “boost up” into the window ledge.

As a military veteran who deployed numerous times in many locations and trained in many disciplines of defense and tactics... I look at those images and injuries and I keep coming back to one theory.

this intruder was likely military, possibly law enforcement, or a “wannabe” who used tools of opportunity, outside of the stun gun, to commit their acts. I believe the killer used a butt of a pistol to fracture her skull, though I see holes in my own hypothesis.

I cannot explain away the ransom note, or the ridiculous length of it; and I cannot actually explain the “reason” for killing her.

in context; you have stunned the child, she is unconscious, you have secured her hands and feet; she isn’t an escape risk; you have taped her mouth, she isn’t going to scream. Why crush her head? If it were a kidnapping why assault her in the home? Why not pick her up, take her out of the window, and carry her off?

I also wonder if the skull fracture was accidental from dropping her in the stairwell....but then why the garot?

look we have all seen programs and read stories about parents who kill their children; they smother them, they manually choke them, they drown them, they set their houses on fire, they poison them.....but I have never heard of a parent who uses a garot to strangle their child.

Anyway....I have Rambled on long enough.
I have no vitriol for him at all. I respect his background and exemplary solve rate. But in this case I believe he is wrong, particularly after reading “Foreign Faction: Who Really Killed Jon Benet”. It’s written by A. James Kolar who was actively involved in the investigation as Investigator for Boulder’s DA office.

In it, he discusses the DNA evidence (or lack thereof) and introduces facts I’ve not seen elsewhere that convinced me that there was no intruder. Things like the Ramseys declined offers of police protection for Burke, the “stun gun” marks and placement on JBs body are exactly what would be expected if she had been pressed against a piece of toy train track found in the basement, the skull fracture matches exactly to a large heavy flashlight in the Ramsey house...

There’s just a sample of the evidence he mentions. Unfortunately the Boulder PD bungled the early investigation so badly that IMO relying on physical evidence alone a good defense attorney could convince a jury there’s reasonable doubt for anyone who might be charged in this case, guilty or not.
But looking beyond the many contested facts and potentially tainted “evidence” to human nature, personally I arrive here:

  • An intruder who broke in specifically to hurt or sexually abuse a small child would take that child out of the home where he could take his time w/her rather than molest and kill her in her house while the family was sleeping. And a sexually motivated person would probably not limit their sexual activity to inserting foreign objects into their victim.
  • An intruder who entered the home intending to kidnap a young child would also remove the child. If the child accidentally died during the abduction a kidnapper would either A) take the dead child with them to attempt to still get ransom. B) bail on the ransom idea entirely, removing the body and ransom note to destroy evidence. C) Flee in fear, possibly leaving the note behind in panic. Not risk discovery simply to stage a different intruder scenario
  • I too find it hard to imagine any parent, particularly the Ramseys, would kill their beloved daughter in such a heinous fashion. Nor would a 9 year old be remotely inclined or capable of doing those things. But a temporarily angry child might whack another over the head w/a nearby object
  • I imagine a bereaved parent might be willing to do anything they think necessary to protect the future of their only remaining child.
MOO
 
sorry, looks very vitriolic to me; as if a man, and then later his family who have been professionally investigating this crime for nearly 25 years...first hand might know more than those who simply want to “believe” that the Ramsey’s were involved based on a very long history of “hate rich white people”.



wrong; the DNA report specifically notes that DNA found on the clothing, specifically the undergarments is directly linked to someone “other” than a family member.

as well the later 2008 documents also state clearly that no DNA evidence found on the clothing was linked to ANY Ramsey family member.



sorry, but that is not how science nor evidence works. The lack of a fact is not an indication of guilt. You cannot prove a negative.



actually that is exactly what has been proven; their DNA was not found on the tested items; specifically the undergarments where the semen / bodily fluids were recovered and tested.

you can in fact prove positives....positives are facts. The DNA was tested; it did not match ANY Ramsey family member...those are positive facts.



another fact; that seems to not be mentioned anywhere. It is Colorado law since 1996; and updated in 2004, and 2008; and federal law since 1999, that any DNA collected from anyone in the course of a felony investigation has their DNA collected and uploaded to CODIS.

the insinuation that some previously captured / convicted serial killer was responsible for this crime is misguided and obtuse. If a previously known and apprehended serial attacker / rapist / killer captured after 1998 had been the culprit of this attack then CODIS DNA would have long ago implicated them in the crime.

the people who believe that a young Burke Ramsey was a sexual deviant, without any evidence; and then also believe he fashioned a garot with not only a broken paint brush that was used in multiple ways to violate and strangle this child is asinine. The knot in the rope was intricate and articulate; that isn’t the work of a child. And while her skull was fractured the autopsy clearly states that her strangulation was the cause of death.

there is no doubt she was subdued with a stun gun...anyone who has ever owned or carried one, especially in LEO or military service is trained in their use and placement for optimum exposure; and if you have ever been stunned with one...the marks that remain are long lasting, and sometimes permanent reminders.

the argument that either parent, or any parent, would need to subdue their 5yo child with a stun gun, not once, but twice, to force them to comply with their commands in the middle of the night is ridiculous. Not to mention the sadistic idea that either would sit around thinking about producing an elaborately knotted tool to garot their child.

I do find some things troubling; and again I find nowhere in documents that they have ever been answered.

Is there proof, data driven proof through logs that the alarm was actually set that night? Isn’t it possible that the intruder, which i firmly believe there was one, came in through an unlocked or unalarmed door / garage only exited through the basement window?

people have made a huge issue with “cobwebs”...but there were also no other debris either, no dirt, no leaves on the floor of the train room. So it is quite possible the impression of the shoe wasn’t left when the intruder entered...but when he left, which is also why the suitcase was there, to “boost up” into the window ledge.

As a military veteran who deployed numerous times in many locations and trained in many disciplines of defense and tactics... I look at those images and injuries and I keep coming back to one theory.

this intruder was likely military, possibly law enforcement, or a “wannabe” who used tools of opportunity, outside of the stun gun, to commit their acts. I believe the killer used a butt of a pistol to fracture her skull, though I see holes in my own hypothesis.

I cannot explain away the ransom note, or the ridiculous length of it; and I cannot actually explain the “reason” for killing her.

in context; you have stunned the child, she is unconscious, you have secured her hands and feet; she isn’t an escape risk; you have taped her mouth, she isn’t going to scream. Why crush her head? If it were a kidnapping why assault her in the home? Why not pick her up, take her out of the window, and carry her off?

I also wonder if the skull fracture was accidental from dropping her in the stairwell....but then why the garot?

look we have all seen programs and read stories about parents who kill their children; they smother them, they manually choke them, they drown them, they set their houses on fire, they poison them.....but I have never heard of a parent who uses a garot to strangle their child.

Anyway....I have Rambled on long enough.

ReconDoc83,

sorry, looks very vitriolic to me;
Sure and this is just your opinion, nothing more nothing less. Lou Smit's Intruder theory has been shown to be without substance, a spider's web demonstrated entrance via the basement window was impossible. You should make a donation to his foundation, this will assist in paying the fees for dna analysis.

wrong; the DNA report specifically notes that DNA found on the clothing, specifically the undergarments is directly linked to someone “other” than a family member.
Really! What is the name of the person it links to outside of the Ramsey house?

Like I said there is no forensic evidence linking to anyone outside of the Ramsey household, any non-ramsey dna can have arisen from multiple sources none of which might have anything to do with JonBenet's death, e.g. JonBenet's underwear touches the White's bathroom floor on a visit.


You stated:
3. it was a stated fact of the program that the DNA didn’t match anyone in the Ramsey family...how can anyone here dispute that? With what evidence?

sorry, but that is not how science nor evidence works. The lack of a fact is not an indication of guilt. You cannot prove a negative.
You can have foreign touch-dna that has arrived on JonBenet's person via third-party transfer, e.g. cross-transfer during the autopsy procedure, during the manufacture of the underwear, or random environmental transfer, its presence does not exonerate any of the Ramsey's, so nobody can claim a Ramsey did not kill JonBenet based on a sample of foreign dna!

actually that is exactly what has been proven; their DNA was not found on the tested items; specifically the undergarments where the semen / bodily fluids were recovered and tested.
Nope, you should go a read over the test results and find where it says their DNA was not found on the tested items and post it here for other members to read.

FYI: There are oustanding dna lab results relating to John and Burke Ramsey listing where any touch-dna was deposited, only the foreign dna has been given promininence, there is more to come, bear in mind Burke Ramsey's touch-dna was found on the bloodstained Pink Barbie Nightgown found in the wine-cellar.

I cannot explain away the ransom note, or the ridiculous length of it; and I cannot actually explain the “reason” for killing her.
The Ransom Note is simply part of the staging, the reason for killing her is to prevent her talking, note no medical assistance was dialled for, consider no problem phoning 911 to start the staging.

If it were a kidnapping why assault her in the home? Why not pick her up, take her out of the window, and carry her off?

I also wonder if the skull fracture was accidental from dropping her in the stairwell....but then why the garot?
Because its not really kidnapping, the RN explains why JonBenet moves from her bedroom to the basement, the garrote is simply part of the staging, nearly everyone gets fooled by the wine-cellar staging.

but I have never heard of a parent who uses a garot to strangle their child.
That's because its never happened before, FBI CSI Stats say the same. Its also an adult homicide construction not that of a child, a child would not have the wordly knowledge to dream up such an artifact.

.
 

but the DNA in Doubt story completely ignores the quantitative biometric that indicates the sample in the longJohns and the profile in CODIS are far more likely to be a match than the number of false positives that profile might generate in a given sample population.

there is an extra allele found at two markers that are indicative of the “multiple people” the DNA in Doubt story focused on. However the analysts at Bode say the rest of the longJohns sample is entirely explained by the profile in CODIS.

I wonder why the Daily Camera (if it is news, it is news to us) would ignore such a critical element of the forensic analysis? Makes me think BPD will do anything to avoid having to admit more mistakes in this case.
 
sG,
I think Tricia had mentioned that she was having someone from Othram as a future guest.
Maybe this point will/could be addressed?
 

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
146
Guests online
203
Total visitors
349

Forum statistics

Threads
608,929
Messages
18,247,737
Members
234,505
Latest member
sandra.gionest76
Back
Top