2009.08.07 Emails between Oak Ridge and OCSO

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IIRC somewhere in this case a tattoo guy said he used chloroform to clean up the chairs and such after giving tats.
I think that there was a lot of speculation regarding whether or not tattoo parlors would have access to chloroform but again, most of these discussions died down when it was made clear that chloroform has been banned for years.

MOO
 
As long as I'm thinking about claims I've heard in the past somewhere - does anyone recall hearing that AD worked for a Vet?

Don't get mad at me and say I'm dragging innocent people in, etc. I'm not saying it's true just that I remember hearing it.

I noticed that the report states that Vets use chloroform; that caused me to think about hearing once that AD had worked for a Vet.

Anyone recall this and was it ever substantiated?

Please go to Post 166 in this thread to read why and where I came up with this information. Thanks.
 
IIRC somewhere in this case a tattoo guy said he used chloroform to clean up the chairs and such after giving tats.

Wow...need to find that link...chloroform has been banned since 1976...wonder where he gets it???
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:31 AM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, I try very hard not to second-guess people since I am well aware that I know very little of what is really going on in an investigation, but I think the early release of the chloroform data was a mistake. Since I am saying nothing to anyone outside my group, I am now getting criticized for other reasons and feel that it might be time to back away from this work. I will of course get the next report out to you and Yuri as promised as soon as I can. On a final note, some of the products we have seen include Pinene and Limonene. This could point to a (possibly) shallow marshy area with decaying vegetation. Is there such an area anywhere near where the car was found? Is it possible to get a topo map of the area? Would it be possible to speak to the individual leading the search from Necrosearch? Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

BBM. I just wanted to mention that pinene and limonene are 2 common natural insecticides. We actually use a flea spray outside with both these compounds, as we have small children and don't like the idea of using man made chemicals if we can help it. Perhaps this is why the sprayers were taken from the Anthony home during the search warrant?? Just a guess, though apparently these particular compounds aren't useful for deterrring flies or magggots, just fleas. Pinene and limonene are both found in dill, sassafrass, and terragon....maybe the product SIMPLE GREEN was used to clean up the car. We use it for everything in the house.




And I also need to add a big THANK YOU to JWG for bringing us the facts. !!!!

BBM- Hmmmm,Interesting....since someone in the house (likely CA) had done a google search for flea removal around the same time as the chloroform searches.
 
The defense can state this very thing in court - how would Casey get her hands on this? But chloroform was not the cause of death.

BBM
No one knows. But there were searches on the family computer on how to make it and references to it on a former boyfriends computer. So it's an unusual factor in the case.

Where have you been? :blowkiss: Now about me, what have I missed? Do we know this for sure, that is, that chloroform was not the cause of death? :confused:
 
I was a Veterinary Tech for 25 years and we never had chloroform ever...in the early day we did use ether...but no chloroform.

Why do you think the chemist/lab guy/scientist/ asks LE the question then? Any ideas? Would a certain kind of Vet use it but not a general one for instance?
 
Yeah other then making it herself the chloroform has always been one of those details in this case that baffles me. How did she get it, what was it used for, and a slew of other questions.

Science labs, industrial chemical holdings would have it. It's used to make R-22 which was a vehicle AC refrigerant which is now illegal to use or will be next year or something. My dad still had a case in his garage the pack rat he was.

It could be used as a cleaning agent but why would you use something as dangerous and hard to get as chloroform when you could use something else. The concentrations were I believe higher then an accidental mixing of cleaning products.

In terms of incapacitating someone there are easier ways especially with children....

Sorry to go off on the chloroform tangent it's just one of the few details that truly has me baffled.

I know, I doubt KC made it herself. There's a post in the Tatoo thread I'm going to attempt to link below. (hope it works) I keep going over this, did the Tattoo shop KC went to use it? If so... was she able to get some? What could she have claimed she needed to clean? This is much more easier then whatever the googled results were. (play up to the tattoo artist n' lie... no messy ingrediants to deal with)


[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2990563#post2990563"]The Tattoo - Page 11 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
 
Pardon my butt in to this conversation, but me brain is thinking that some of our previous conversations about the vet reference was during some talk of SK. Her call name (for lack of a better name) was "Special K". I remember some references about ketamine.

Am I remembering this all correct?:waitasec:
 
Yeah other then making it herself the chloroform has always been one of those details in this case that baffles me. How did she get it, what was it used for, and a slew of other questions.

Science labs, industrial chemical holdings would have it. It's used to make R-22 which was a vehicle AC refrigerant which is now illegal to use or will be next year or something. My dad still had a case in his garage the pack rat he was.

It could be used as a cleaning agent but why would you use something as dangerous and hard to get as chloroform when you could use something else. The concentrations were I believe higher then an accidental mixing of cleaning products.

In terms of incapacitating someone there are easier ways especially with children....

Sorry to go off on the chloroform tangent it's just one of the few details that truly has me baffled.

Quote Respect Marspiter :)

Me too. Can someone remind me what date the chloroform searches were done?

Thanks
 
Quote Respect Marspiter :)

Me too. Can someone remind me what date the chloroform searches were done?

Thanks

March 2008. I think it was March 17 and March 21--2 days in either direction from KC's birthday.
 
In reading the rest of the thread and hearing chloroform is illegal I guess the tattoo artist would not be saying anything if he did have it and gave her some. And big 'if' it was at the shop then, it sure wouldn't be now.
 
More evidence is Cindy's excited utterance "I found my daughter's car today and it smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car."

ITA lacey

Cindy's excited utterance + 31 days = guilty!

Physical evidence is icing on the cake. JB, et al can try to sell the jury on their theories re "junk science" but Cindy's words and Casey's actions (or lack of) are proof enough for me. I pray it's enough for the jury.

adding my thanks to JWG :blowkiss: always the master sleuth
 
Re dead pig smell...
When I was a kid, my parents broke a big jar of pickled pig's feet in the car.
It was summer & very hot...
it smelled so terrible & the smell never completely left.

But it STILL did not even come close to the smell of human decomposition...which is the worst thing I have ever smelt & and once you have smelt it - you never forget it.
It is not like anything else...not even other dead animals are like it.

Both George and Cindy simply HAD to have known what it was.
 
Why do you think the chemist/lab guy/scientist/ asks LE the question then? Any ideas? Would a certain kind of Vet use it but not a general one for instance?

Not that I know of...the only thing I can think of is a chemist working in a lab just doesn't know they don't use this stuff anymore...I was involved in the Veterinary profession since the early 70's and we never had it...don't know about hospitals...have to do some research.
 
snipped for brevity

I'm guessing the brown liquid is tobacco juice. Didn't they find an empty chewing tobacco tin in the garbage? I believe it was an empty Copenhagen can. Ya gotta spit that stuff someplace...

OR bong water since they found traces of cannibus as well. Just a thought.
 
yes, it gives the correct time.

The number is (407) 646-3131 for anyone that wants to call, by the way :)

OMG that number has been around since at least the mid-sixties! Ummm, while we are admitting bad uses for this number, I once gave it out when someone asked for my number and I didn't want to give him mine. :blush: Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

I just called and it gave me today's weather, tonight's forecast and tomorrows forecast. Of course this is August... no problem forecasting Florida weather in August... "hot and humid with a chance of scattered thunderstorms" :raincloud: She could have been calling it to check the next days weather but not to see if it was a good "dump day" since she'd already parked the car at Amscot.
 
Uses

Chloroform was mostly used as an anesthetic, but it is also used as a pesticide. [8] Chloroform was first used to help people who suffered from asthma, and to help women in childbirth by numbing their body to pain. Chloroform has also been used in the creation of many drugs such as Penicillin, and dyes. Chloroform was used in some toothpastes to add extra flavor. The Chloroform was used as a replacement for sweetener, as it is 40 times sweeter than sugar. All these uses of Chloroform were halted once researchers discovered that Chloroform can cause cancer. [9] It is also used as a solvent for fats, oils, greases, rubber, waxes, resins, lacquers, floor polishes, artificial silk manufacture, gums and adhesives. [10]
Medicinal Value

Chloroform was originally used as an anesthetic. The first man to use chloroform as an anesthetic was James Young Simpson when he used it on himself. Chloroform can also be very deadly. After Chloroform was mass produced to be used in hospitals as an anesthetic, several reports of sudden deaths came in, they all involved the use of Chloroform. Some believed it did damage to the heart. Eventually, the process of using Chloroform was deemed safe for all its uses and purposes and its use continued for awhile. Since that time, Chloroform has been used only when ABSOLUTELY necessary. [11] Chloroform has some negative side effects. When chloroform is inhaled, ingested, or makes contact with skin or eyes it can cause damage to the body. [12] Chloroform doses are ranked in five stages where 1-3 are safe to use. Stage one makes the patient unable to feel but still conscious. Stage two makes the patient slow and lethargic but able to feel pain. Stage three, the final safe stage, causes complete numbness and an inability to feel pain. Stage four causes hard breathing for the patient total muscle loosening. Stage five is a fatal paralysis of all the chest muscles. This is the final and most dangerous stage. Chloroform is not used as much today because it has been medically proven that Chloroform can cause cancer. Since its discovery, safer compounds have been created to replace Chloroform for medicinal purposes. [13]


I don't know if any hospitals still use it or have it on hand at all, but found the uses pertaining to KC to be interesting.
 
I used to work in a hospital. ICU nurse. To my knowledge chloroform was not available in the hospital.
 
I used to work in a hospital. ICU nurse. To my knowledge chloroform was not available in the hospital.

That was what I thought, that it's an archaic, obsolete substance for legitimate medical use.

I think it's possible it was used to clean the car trunk. I'm not sold on the idea of KC using it to drug Caylee. What was the date of the chloroform search again? Going to go check... Wish I could remember the dates of these details.........
 
DogMom2JoeAndWillie, you sound like an expert - can you explain azeotropes, and do they have anything to do with the finding of residual chloroform, absent acetones or esthers?

Thanks for the compliment, but I am far from being an expert; I only have a BS in Chemistry. I've just been around analytical chemistry labs a good bit because my Mom owns/operates one and has for as long as I can remember. I focused on the use of GC-MS for the identification and quantification of mescaline in ancient peyote samples for my undergraduate research project, but I really only know the basics.
The best explanation that I can give you is that distillation is carried out on a mixture that is in the liquid phase. You separate the components of a mixture by boiling point when you employ simple distillation. Boiling point is a physical property, so separating a mixture by boiling point only requires heat; no chemical reactions take place in the separation process. You begin with a mixture of two chemicals and are (in theory) able to separate the mixture into two parts that consist of one pure chemical that remains unchanged (there are no chemical reactions). A classic example is the distillation of a mixture of benzene and toluene because it best illustrates the "ideal" conditions required for the separation of a two component mixture by boiling point (if you want more info, read up on Raoult's law and Dalton's law... I don't wanna put everyone to sleep... if i haven't already!). In reality, it is nearly impossible to COMPLETELY separate a mixture into separate, purified components without taking advantage of the chemical reactivity of the different chemical components in the mixture. For example, a mixture of ethanol and water can't be separated by simple distillation; it is necessary to create a change in pressure OR add another component that will create a CHEMICAL (not physical) change within the mixture so that the two components may be separated.
Regardless of whether or not the mixture is azeotropic, the separation of a liquid system into its pure chemical components can be done without destroying any of the sample. If you have a two component mixture of volume equal to 10mL, you can separate it into component A of volume equal to 2mL and component B of volume equal to 8mL (volume A+volume B=10mL, so there is no significant "loss"). Evaporation is used WITH re-condensation when simple distillation is performed, so both the sample and the end products are in the liquid phase.
The main point is that the azeotrope is a mixture of TWO SEPARATE CHEMICALS and the different chemicals still have DIFFERENT CHEMICAL PROPERTIES from one another. Don't think of it as A+B=C; think of it as A+B=A+B. Each chemical species maintains it's OWN IDENTITY even though the boiling point of the mixture makes it APPEAR as if an entirely different chemical has been formed.

When you perform analysis with GC-MS, you inject a VERY small volume of your sample into the injection port. The sample is COMPLETELY vaporized upon injection (so it's in the gas phase) and the mobile phase (also a gas) moves the sample through the column where it CHEMICALLY interacts with the stationary phase (the coating on the walls inside the column). The evaporation of the liquid sample is a physical change and the less volatile (lower molecular weight) compounds will move through the column more quickly, BUT the CHEMICAL reactions between these compounds and the stationary phase are also involved in the separation process. Not only are you using separation by boiling point with GC-MS, but you are also using separation based on POLARITY (a chemical property) and based on retention time (also related to chemical property).
Another difference is that since the volume injected is so small with GC-MS, it is nearly impossible to separately collect each individual eluent when it comes off the column. GC-MS detects chemical species in the ppm and ppb ranges... you can imagine how difficult it would be to collect 10ppb methanol in a vial when it is eluted from the column.
I really hope this has helped out a little bit without getting too confusing. I am not very good at explaining things, but am happy to try. Let me know if there is anything that doesn't make sense or if I need to clarify. :)
 

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