2009.08.07 Emails between Oak Ridge and OCSO

[Intermezzo]

i agree with you.....i just wonder why Dr. Lee said that there was some kind of meat in the trunk....i think he said ham.....i will try and find the link...i believe it was on NG.....and i know this subject has been talked about already....and Dr. Lee was blowing smoke......

......i can hear what the defense is going to throw out there.....

I remember Dr Lee saying that on NG as well. it was soon after he completed his inspection and went on her show.

 

[mimimama5]

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:31 AM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, I try very hard not to second-guess people since I am well aware that I know very little of what is really going on in an investigation, but I think the early release of the chloroform data was a mistake. Since I am saying nothing to anyone outside my group, I am now getting criticized for other reasons and feel that it might be time to back away from this work. I will of course get the next report out to you and Yuri as promised as soon as I can. On a final note, some of the products we have seen include Pinene and Limonene. This could point to a (possibly) shallow marshy area with decaying vegetation. Is there such an area anywhere near where the car was found? Is it possible to get a topo map of the area? Would it be possible to speak to the individual leading the search from Necrosearch? Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

BBM. I just wanted to mention that pinene and limonene are 2 common natural insecticides. We actually use a flea spray outside with both these compounds, as we have small children and don't like the idea of using man made chemicals if we can help it. Perhaps this is why the sprayers were taken from the Anthony home during the search warrant?? Just a guess, though apparently these particular compounds aren't useful for deterrring flies or magggots, just fleas. Pinene and limonene are both found in dill, sassafrass, and terragon....maybe the product SIMPLE GREEN was used to clean up the car. We use it for everything in the house.




And I also need to add a big THANK YOU to JWG for bringing us the facts. !!!!

 

[momtective]

But I thought the area wasn't flooded in June?

Just because it wasn't flooded doesn't mean it wasn't wet. There was quite a bit of rain in June & July.
http://www.wunderground.com/history...008&req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

Total rain June & July 7.35in.

 

[Intermezzo]

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:31 AM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, I try very hard not to second-guess people since I am well aware that I know very little of what is really going on in an investigation, but I think the early release of the chloroform data was a mistake. Since I am saying nothing to anyone outside my group, I am now getting criticized for other reasons and feel that it might be time to back away from this work. I will of course get the next report out to you and Yuri as promised as soon as I can. On a final note, some of the products we have seen include Pinene and Limonene. This could point to a (possibly) shallow marshy area with decaying vegetation. Is there such an area anywhere near where the car was found? Is it possible to get a topo map of the area? Would it be possible to speak to the individual leading the search from Necrosearch? Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

BBM. I just wanted to mention that pinene and limonene are 2 common natural insecticides. We actually use a flea spray outside with both these compounds, as we have small children and don't like the idea of using man made chemicals if we can help it. Perhaps this is why the sprayers were taken from the Anthony home during the search warrant?? Just a guess, though apparently these particular compounds aren't useful for deterrring flies or magggots, just fleas. Pinene and limonene are both found in dill, sassafrass, and terragon....maybe the product SIMPLE GREEN was used to clean up the car. We use it for everything in the house.




And I also need to add a big THANK YOU to JWG for bringing us the facts. !!!!

Would an aersol or spray air freshener contain these products?

Someone tried to mask the smell with alot of air freshener?...

 

[Insomnia Momma]

Wow! The first set is SO much more enlightening then the second. I wonder why the media chose to only publish one set?

 

[sarah7855]

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 11:28 AM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: Package **Exempt**

Doc,

Seven of the glass tubes were broken. How important are the glass tubes, can I ship them back in a different container?

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 11:51 AM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject: RE: Package **Exempt**

Mike, unbelieveable! Fortunately the glass tubes are not important at all, just a means of shipping (safe we thought). Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.


-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 2:54 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: **Exempt**

Doc,

When I do a sample with one TST what do I do if anything, to block off the second hose line?

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 2:57 PM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Nothing – just leave it flopping. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 5:22 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: RE:

Arpad,

Could you please advise me as to what LIBS and VFA’s stand for. Thanks.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 7:45 AM
To: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Subject: RE:

Mike, sorry. I am so rushed and stressed these days I don’t take the time to re-read everything. LIBS = Laser Induced Breakdown Spectroscopy and is used to determine an elemental profile of the sample. Useful in this case to see if inorganic compounds common to decomp (calcium, magnesium, chloride, etc) are present. VFA= Volatile Fatty Acids which are produced from the breakdown of fat and muscle and, if present, are used for PMI (post-mortem interval) determinations during soft tissue decomp. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

respecfully snipped and bolded by me.

While I have nothing but the utmost confidence in the State's CSI's on the testing in this case, I am worried that the defense is going to try and use things like these emails to try and show that the State basically did not know what they were doing when they collected these air samples. This would contribute to their "junk science" claim by highlighting that the CSI (Vincent) collecting these air samples really didn't know what he was doing...and to be perfectly honest, he did seem to be a little unprepared to do this task: "When I do a sample with one TST what do I do if anything, to block off the second hose line?", for example. The defense could argue that the air samples were compromised in some way due to his obvious inexperience dealing with this type of testing. And I don't know his scope of work, but I was surprised to read that he didn't know what LIBS and VFA's stood for. I'm just a typical person with no real education on this type of thing at all (other than the stuff I've learned here at my beloved Websleuths :blowkiss but even I knew what those acronyms stood for :waitasec:

Regardless, thank for JWG for posting these!! Do we know why these weren't uploaded by the media? I can't see why anyone would think that these weren't of value...they are far more relevant than, say, Jesse's detailed work/school/life history! Surely the media did receive these, right? :waitasec:

 

[Jolynna]

The correspondence regarding the chloroform levels found in the trunk were of interest to me.

When the information was first released that it had been found in high concentration, I was of the belief that KC had used it on Caylee in an attempt to subdue her long enough to accomplish the deed.

Then we had Simon B's statement about the flies and maggots seen upon opening the trunk lid at the tow yard.

Learning that chloroform would act as an insecticide, it didn't make sense that KC had used it for purposes of subduing Caylee, as those high levels would have killed the insects.

The trash bag containing the paper towels with the VFA's (grave wax) adhering to them, was removed and placed in the tow yard dumpster by Simon B.

Dr. Vass questioning the detective's about KC's access to chloroform, or FAMILY access, leads me to believe that it was not used until AFTER the Pontiac was returned to the Anthony garage on July 15th.

I'm wondering if the gas chromatic spectrometry is/was able to discern a variation of compounds in the chloroform that would indicate an industrial/professional grade versus homemade, internet instructed, readily available to the lay person ingredients, type of chloroform?

Cindy COULD have had access to the industrial/professional grade through her work.
I think the chloroform was used to clean the trunk by GA or CA.

Raid kills maggots.

Chloroform over Caylee's face would not discourage coffin flies from laying eggs and leaving maggots elsewhere on Caylee or into where fluids had seeped. Unlike other flies, "coffin flies" can get through the smallest openings and are found even with buried bodies. Chloroform fumes are not what works as an insecticide. The liquid itself is the insecticide. Coffin flies had burrowed into the trunk through the cracks and into the paper toweling in the trash bag in the trunk.

I don't think Cindy's job as a nurse for the nursing home patients gave her access to chloroform. Hospitals haven't used it for decades. She wouldn't have known in advance there was going to be maggots in a car in her garage. So it wouldn't have just been there.

 

[sarah7855]

I don't think Cindy's job as a nurse for the nursing home patients gave her access to chloroform. Hospitals haven't used it for decades.

respectfully snipped by me.
Exactly, I was confused when I read the email from Vass as to why he would ask that question for the very reason you stated above. Unless he knows something we don't, I suppose.

 

[Insomnia Momma]

Raid kills maggots.

Chloroform over Caylee's face would not discourage coffin flies from laying eggs and leaving maggots elsewhere on Caylee or into where fluids had seeped. Unlike other flies, "coffin flies" can get through the smallest openings and are found even with buried bodies. Chloroform fumes are not what works as an insecticide. The liquid itself is the insecticide. Coffin flies had burrowed into the trunk through the cracks and into the paper toweling in the trash bag in the trunk.

I don't think Cindy's job as a nurse for the nursing home patients gave her access to chloroform. Hospitals haven't used it for decades. She wouldn't have known in advance there was going to be maggots in a car in her garage. So it wouldn't have just been there.

Respectfully bolded by me.

Cindy works in an office organizing visiting nurses, not in a nursing home. I hope that clears things up a bit! There is NO WAY she had access to chloroform in her duties at work. She never even saw patients!
:blowkiss:

 

[SarahR]

Do they have the inflatable mattress Casey apparently bought for ZG's? could she have put Caylee on this and dragged her into the area insted of trying to carry her?

 

[Jolynna]

Dr. Haskell is quite a catch for the prosecutors. I am glad he is on the state's team. He's the most renowned it the field.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/jazlynsmum1/papertowelanalyis.png

Here's an article about Dr. Haskell which talks about all the ways insects like flies and beetles can help make a prosecutors case:
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:GM-nqRmKBc0J:www.jessicasachs.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/jsachs/managed-mt/mt-search.cgi%3Ftag%3DNeal%2520Haskell%26blog_id%3D9+%22neal+Haskell%22+entomologist&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[sarah7855]

Respectfully bolded by me.

Cindy works in an office organizing visiting nurses, not in a nursing home. I hope that clears things up a bit! There is NO WAY she had access to chloroform in her duties at work. She never even saw patients!
:blowkiss:

That's what I thought, but I was basing my comment off of Vincent's email, and perhaps Jolynna was too:

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 2:15 PM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mike, we are still very curious about the very high levels of chloroform we saw in the trunk sample. I know you said nothing was found in the house search, but did the mother or other family member or friend/other relative have any access to pharmaceutical supplies ie working in a lab or hospital, veterinary clinic etc?? Just a thought. Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 2:52 PM
To: 'Vass, Arpad Alexander'
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

Mom is a registered nurse in a old folks home. But the daughter had sole custody of the vehicle. However, a forensic search of the home computer revealed Google search on How to make chloroform. They are trying to pin down a time on the search to see who conducted the search.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

 

[KenoshaKid]

Interesting, if not unappetizing hunch. :yuck:

Looking back through the evidence sheets, I believe it was this item:

13. Empty "Crystal Light" bottle 16oz with brown liquid proof purchase num # 430093911.

Right, I am guessing he spit the tobacco juice into this empty bottle.

 

[sarah7855]

Do they have the inflatable mattress Casey apparently bought for ZG's? could she have put Caylee on this and dragged her into the area insted of trying to carry her?

They do have the mattress, however, IMHO, I doubt KC would try and drag Caylee on that matress. For one, it wouldn't fit in the trunk inflated, so she would have to inflate the thing there on scene, and two, the canvas laundry bag that Caylee's body was contained in (wrapped in trash bags, of course :furious had handles on it. So, I think that she just picked up the bag, heaved it into the woods, and went on her way. Caylee was found quite close to the road (see link below for the 3D images showing the remains site), so Casey didn't go very far into the woods to dispose of her.

http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/20318602/detail.html

 

[sarah7855]

Right, I am guessing he spit the tobacco juice into this empty bottle.

Oh, good point. Didn't catch that: "empty" bottle with "brown liquid inside". Kind of confusing, but maybe they mean to say that whatever the brown liquid was, it wasn't Crystal Light. I'd say that's a great guess on your part, someone spit chewing tobacco in it. The bottle was found in the trash in the car along with the tobacco can, right? if so, makes perfect sense.

 

[whiteangora]

respecfully snipped and bolded by me.

While I have nothing but the utmost confidence in the State's CSI's on the testing in this case, I am worried that the defense is going to try and use things like these emails to try and show that the State basically did not know what they were doing when they collected these air samples. This would contribute to their "junk science" claim by highlighting that the CSI (Vincent) collecting these air samples really didn't know what he was doing...and to be perfectly honest, he did seem to be a little unprepared to do this task: "When I do a sample with one TST what do I do if anything, to block off the second hose line?", for example. The defense could argue that the air samples were compromised in some way due to his obvious inexperience dealing with this type of testing. And I don't know his scope of work, but I was surprised to read that he didn't know what LIBS and VFA's stood for. I'm just a typical person with no real education on this type of thing at all (other than the stuff I've learned here at my beloved Websleuths :blowkiss but even I knew what those acronyms stood for :waitasec:

Regardless, thank for JWG for posting these!! Do we know why these weren't uploaded by the media? I can't see why anyone would think that these weren't of value...they are far more relevant than, say, Jesse's detailed work/school/life history! Surely the media did receive these, right? :waitasec:

I thought the Body Farm in Oakridge TN did the air sample testings.

 

[wendi]

Thanks for sharing this with us I am glad to know there is still some pretty shocking info we haven't seen yet!

 

[mimimama5]

Would an aersol or spray air freshener contain these products?

Someone tried to mask the smell with alot of air freshener?...

I looked at Arm and Hammers webpage to see if I could find an ingredient list, to no avail. Im not sure if the product in question was even Arm and Hammer, but that stuck in my head from somewhere?... If you could provide me the actual product that was used, I will get the ingredient list no problem. ( as a go green mama, I frequently torture cleaning product manufacturers with unending questions about their ingredients)... We have some special respiratory concerns with 2 of our kiddos, and I have to make certain that the products we choose won't interfere with their limitations. We use greenworks, and simple green, when good old fashioned white vinegar wont do the job. We try to keep it as basic as we can around here. I'll see what I can find out for you

 

[JWG]

Regardless, thank for JWG for posting these!! Do we know why these weren't uploaded by the media? I can't see why anyone would think that these weren't of value...they are far more relevant than, say, Jesse's detailed work/school/life history! Surely the media did receive these, right? :waitasec:

I think they were not uploaded because they were not organized in a single PDF file. They came to me as dozens of individual HTML files. In other words, organizing and uploading them would be a pain. And it was, especially when I had to redact phone numbers and email addresses.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Momtective,

Thanks for providing the precip totals. Looks like it rained every day except one since the last day Caylee was seen until the likely dump date. Would definitely have been a muddy mess.