2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

[chefmom]

But the plastic bags were inside the laundry bag, so they weren't transferring the image. The stain was visible to the naked eye, George saw it and described it. Would the outline really be more visible if she were left there longer even though she was enclosed in 3 bags? CA also cleaned the trunk, so we don't really know how much material was sucked up via the lil green machine.
So after only 10 days the squirrel had nothing left but fur and skeleton (completely decayed, not in Florida heat in an undetermined month), but with 2.6 days in a sweltering trunk..she never reached stage 2 of decomp?? Does not compute. Just have lots of questions. I am not disputing the 2.6 day science, because the way I read it, 2.6 days is not a definite and finalized conclusion.

BBM

The laundry bag may not have come into play until after Caylee's body had already been in the trunk for the 2.6 days. Say, for instance, GA followed KC out to the car, KC got scared and decided she had to dump her, the bags are squishy, (I hate to type that, guys!) and she puts the laundry bag over the plastic bags, pulls over to the side of the road, takes a few steps and slings her in the brush. We really have no way of knowing for sure since the only people who can actually tell us anything that occured during the 31 days is a member of the A family and all are proven liars. MOO

 

[pip]

BBM

The laundry bag may not have come into play until after Caylee's body had already been in the trunk for the 2.6 days. Say, for instance, GA followed KC out to the car, KC got scared and decided she had to dump her, the bags are squishy, (I hate to type that, guys!) and she puts the laundry bag over the plastic bags, pulls over to the side of the road, takes a few steps and slings her in the brush. We really have no way of knowing for sure since the only people who can actually tell us anything that occured during the 31 days is a member of the A family and all are proven liars. MOO

Yes. Point being there are so many unknown variables that could affect the results of the science. imo. We don't even know if she put her in the trunk right away. She could have been in the sandbox for a day for all we know. In the bags vs outside the bags, how many bags, for how long? How much material was cleaned from the trunk?

 

[chefmom]

Yes. Point being there are so many unknown variables that could affect the results of the science. imo. We don't even know if she put her in the trunk right away. She could have been in the sandbox for a day for all we know. In the bags vs outside the bags, how many bags, for how long? How much material was cleaned from the trunk?

Exactly. We simply will never know precisely what the situation was, when it was, or where it was other than what the forensics can ascertain and educated guessing. Sad, isn't it? I can't believe that KC's freedom is more important to the A's than the truth of what happened to that precious child. jmo

 

[Chiquita71]

In some of the pictures linked you can clearly see her arm / hand with a 2" band at the wrist and near the elbow. Look at where her shoulder / elbow lies in relationship to her chest. They look pulled back IMO.

(2" band visible at wrist): http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/032310caseyanthonyset3/1/lg/032310_anthony2_Page_409.htm

(2" band visible at wrist and elbow) http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/032310caseyanthonyset3/1/lg/032310_anthony2_Page_407.htm



Right IF she were chloroformed it would have been a "soft death" - didn't sound like the SA thought this was the case. Why tape her arms if she were knocked out?




The interview date was 07/24/08. This post link has the taped interview:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6220584&postcount=601

Thank you LCoastMom :cool2: for responding to that request(and having a link) by Solace(Hello! ) . :wave:

 

[LambChop]

I would guess that any scientist that states 2.6 days is really not guessing but has it down to a scientific certainty. Otherwise the report would have stated, within 2 to 4 days in the trunk. Saying 2.6 sounds pretty specific. And given the fact that they are having a hard time providing decomposition material was in the trunk I would say 2.6 is correct. If it had been 8 or more days there would be absolutely no doubt because the rug would have been saturated with fluids. And lets not forget after two days KC was looking for a shovel so she clearly knew then she had to dispose of the body. My guess is KC grabbed the canvas bag when she was in the last day she backed the car into the garage. Leaving the body in the yard would have alerted the dogs. jmo

 

[zoey]

Lola,

But if she were put out by chloroform, she would not be feeling this? I have asked this before but never received a response. Would a person react to loss of air if they were unconscious?

Not a professional but I would say possibly no...they may initially but its not the gung ho fight that one would think -- I know watching my parents and my sister the drugs made it more peaceful....I only hope that Caylee did have drugs---it is horrid to think that she didn't....

 

[BD1]

Lola,

But if she were put out by chloroform, she would not be feeling this? I have asked this before but never received a response. Would a person react to loss of air if they were unconscious?

I'm going to guess no, she would not be responsive. In fact, from what I've read about this case, if Casey did chloroform Caylee, Caylee may have been already dead or close to it if she was chloroformed then duct taped.

 

[Solace]

Per Dr. Vass' depo, on page 109 he discusses the squirrel test. He says he let is decompose on a piece of carpet covered by a garbage can for 10 days so he could get some early stage decomp thru the fur and onto the carpet sample. Stage 2 decomp is from 4-10 days. So does this mean Caylee could have been in stage 2 decomp to create the 'Shroud of Turin' type stain on the trunk liner, and does this mean she was in the trunk > 2.6 days? Is stage 1 and stage 2 considered 'early' decomp? If you believe the silhouette exists as the photo demonstrates, how could it have been created in 2.6 days or less if tissue purging doesn't occur until at least 4 days in stage 2?

Thanks L.Coast. I cannot make out anything in these pictures though. WW did outline her in one of his great posts. But the pictures on wftv I can't make out anything at all. Thanks

 

[joypath]

Lola,

But if she were put out by chloroform, she would not be feeling this? I have asked this before but never received a response. Would a person react to loss of air if they were unconscious?

:twocents: An person under the influence of chloroform MUST be monitored continually to KEEP them breathing that's one of the many reasons why it is not used in today's medical arena. It is believed that the unconscious person does NOT have a reaction to the deprivation of air.

 

[ynotdivein]

joypath--so glad you stopped by! We had some questions come up over the last page or two that we hoped you might share your educated :twocents: about... Mostly around rigor mortis in relation to the apparent position of what some of us think is the imprint of the side of Caylee's foot in the stain, and then the process whereby such a stain might occur given the potential bagging scenarios, and also a little bit about chloroform. Any thoughts when you have a moment would be much appreciated by many grateful WSers! :blowkiss:

Rigor sets in within hours after death and relaxes within 72 hours. If I am reading correctly, the duration can be shortened by exposure to heat (i.e. the trunk of a car in June in Florida). I'm not sure whether it proceeds faster in children.

So. Theory. If KC originally wrapped Caylee only in the Pooh blanket and laid her in the trunk, for a day or two she would have had a rigid body there. IMO, when Caylee began to come out of rigor is when KC got around to thinking about her again, perhaps because the body was more relaxed and starting to roll around back there. However, Caylee is now limp among other physical changes, and she is hard to maneuver. KC, ever the resourceful one, borrows BB's shovel to help manipulate the body into the garbage bags, which she then maneuvers into the laundry bag (which was only 2 inches wider than Caylee's shoulders, so this was a tight fit). When KC picks up the laundry bag by the handles, gravity pulls Caylee's foot into the bottom curve of the bag, contributing to the imprint we are seeing.

OK, now let me change my mind. I am leaning toward Caylee being in the garbage bags from shortly after her death. I think the laundry bag came last, on shovel day (when rigor had dissipated and Caylee's foot would again have become pliable). Reasons: 1) even KC could reason out that a "bag of garbage" in the trunk is a lot less obvious than a childish form shrouded in a blanket on the off chance that someone else glanced into her trunk; and 2) if Caylee had been transferred into the garbage bags after 2.6 days wrapped only in a blanket in the trunk, that would have been an immensely messy and disgusting task and IMO there would be much more staining than we're seeing.

Thoughts? Can somebody light up the joypath beacon?

Also, if she were placed in the garbage bag shortly after death/pre-rigor, that could also have affected the positioning of the feet in the same way as the laundry bag would. The foot would have gone through rigor in that position, and would not likely have shifted much if all KC did was reach in, drag the two garbage bags out by their handles, and either drop the garbage bags into the laundry bag upright, or "scoot" the laundry bag up over the garbage bags from the bottom up...

(BTW, thanks to all posters who suggest that these images are Caylee speaking to us from beyond the grave. These are horrible images and horrible things to think about--it's overwhelming at times until I remind myself that Caylee wanted this to come out, and needs this all to be understood.)

ETA: 3doglady, I know what you mean, and had trouble wrapping my head around that too, until I read USARDOG's story of what happened when s/he bagged a dead possum in two trash bags and left them on the concrete in a fairly sunny spot for a couple of days--apparently there was a possum "Shroud of Turin" left on the concrete and details were visible down to the eye.... I've come to believe that we are seeing a carpet version of the same process (though I have zero understanding of the science that would cause such an image transfer).

I have lit the :hero: joypath beacon!

I have a random question . . . could chloroform have something to do with the image imprint? I have a visceral memory of toners and fix scents from making prints and negatives in my highschool photography class (wow - really am aging myself here). Could the chloroform act as a fixative agent on the decomp stain (shroud of Turin) image?

DH the ex-chemist says that "chloroform's volatility makes it an unlikely candidate for a fixative agent." (He followed this up with, "Has joypath gotten back to you yet?" He's learning, is DH.)

 

[Solace]

:twocents: An person under the influence of chloroform MUST be monitored continually to KEEP them breathing that's one of the many reasons why it is not used in today's medical arena. It is believed that the unconscious person does NOT have a reaction to the deprivation of air.

Okay, thank you Joy.

 

[LCoastMom]

Thanks L.Coast. I cannot make out anything in these pictures though. WW did outline her in one of his great posts. But the pictures on wftv I can't make out anything at all. Thanks

Solice I should have said I can clearly see! Not my intent to tell anyone else what they can see or not, and I can understand not being able to see what is in those pictures too - for some the mind just won't go there, for others it just isn't there!

Thank goodness that the FBI has access to better graphics and pictures than we have seen - I feel for this jury already...

 

[countzero]

Thought here and not sure how it fits in. Caylee was first placed into the black bags in the truck. Duct tape firmly attached. 2.6 days later, ICA moves Calyee into the laundry bag which COULD have dislodged the piece of duct tape found separately from Caylee's bones at the remain site which was wrapped around Caylee's wrists.

The decomposition of Caylee being in the black bags caused the stain on the truck liner and ICA putting Caylee in the black bags into the laundry bag prevented further leakage of Caylee's decomposition onto the truck liner .... have I got the understanding of it all now?

I truly abhor using Caylee's name in this context but I refuse to simply use "her or the child" as the A clan refers to her.

 

[wenwe4]

Thought here and not sure how it fits in. Caylee was first placed into the black bags in the truck. Duct tape firmly attached. 2.6 days later, ICA moves Calyee into the laundry bag which COULD have dislodged the piece of duct tape found separately from Caylee's bones at the remain site which was wrapped around Caylee's wrists.

The decomposition of Caylee being in the black bags caused the stain on the truck liner and ICA putting Caylee in the black bags into the laundry bag prevented further leakage of Caylee's decomposition onto the truck liner .... have I got the understanding of it all now?

I truly abhor using Caylee's name in this context but I refuse to simply use "her or the child" as the A clan refers to her.

this is where I am leaning - with the exception of the timing of when the duct tape on the wrists fell off, as that could have happened anytime between June 18th ish and December when her remains were found.

 

[ynotdivein]

this is where I am leaning - with the exception of the timing of when the duct tape on the wrists fell off, as that could have happened anytime between June 18th ish and December when her remains were found.

IMO given the chewed aspect of Q104, it did not come off Caylee's wrists until her arms were separated by animal activity.

 

[spcagrl]

Per Dr. Vass' depo, on page 109 he discusses the squirrel test. He says he let is decompose on a piece of carpet covered by a garbage can for 10 days so he could get some early stage decomp thru the fur and onto the carpet sample. Stage 2 decomp is from 4-10 days. So does this mean Caylee could have been in stage 2 decomp to create the 'Shroud of Turin' type stain on the trunk liner, and does this mean she was in the trunk > 2.6 days? Is stage 1 and stage 2 considered 'early' decomp? If you believe the silhouette exists as the photo demonstrates, how could it have been created in 2.6 days or less if tissue purging doesn't occur until at least 4 days in stage 2?

I sort of thought that the "squirrel" test was to debunk the explanation by ICA that there were dead squirrels in the car, or that her father had run over a squirrel, or something like that.......I did not think that portion of. Dr. Vass testing had to do with Caylee specifically. Just IMO.....

 

[pip]

I sort of thought that the "squirrel" test was to debunk the explanation by ICA that there were dead squirrels in the car, or that her father had run over a squirrel, or something like that.......I did not think that portion of. Dr. Vass testing had to do with Caylee specifically. Just IMO.....

I understand it was to debunk the odor claim too.
I was just questioning stage of decomp in the trunk causing the stain/silhouette in only 2.6 days. Thinking she must have been in early stage 2. The squirrel was fur and bones in 10 days without Florida heat! How could the body in the trunk be stage 1 only after about 3 days in sweltering trunk heat? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Chiquita71]

bringing the pic over to this page

what are all those little specks behind the measuring tape?

Solice I should have said I can clearly see! Not my intent to tell anyone else what they can see or not, and I can understand not being able to see what is in those pictures too - for some the mind just won't go there, for others it just isn't there!

Thank goodness that the FBI has access to better graphics and pictures than we have seen - I feel for this jury already...

RespectfullyQuoted BLOnDe GuRrL & LCoastMom :cool2:
BBM

I was one who could not see what other people were seeing. I believed that Casey had killed Caylee and believed without a doubt that Caylee was in the trunk of the Pontiac. But, I didn't want to just think I was seeing something or imagine I was...

when I came back to the thread after not looking at it in a while, that image is as "clear as day" to me, now I can't stop seeing it. Even if it isn't caused by Caylee(which I do not believe)I can't stop seeing the form of a small child in that image/stain.

I can't help but see an arm that is bent at the shoulder and comes down along the body to rest near the lap. Others said this, I didn't notice what others were saying until I saw it myself. I understand now, the debates regarding the third piece of duct tape and whether Caylee's hands would have been; bound at all, bound in the front or bound in the back. In my mind I see something still "wrapped" around the wrist, and I was wondering if Casey did tie Caylee's hands in front(or in back)of her she used something other than duct tape?

Like some kind of cloth, a scarf, a tie; something made of fabric? When I read (sorry I forgot who, might not even be this thread)something regarding a "soft kill" vs. ...the alternative-the SA is saying this was not a soft kill. I heard some of what JA had to say in that one hearing and he spoke as if Casey was calm and composed while she took Caylee's life. That is another issue in this case that runs on my mind's back burner. Seeing this image, really seeing it has caused my mind to bring some of that forward.

And, I keep on thinking about the child development book at the Anthony home with "Tantrum" circled and how IIRC, it was said that Caylee was having tantrums.

What two and a half year old...no need to finish that but I will...doesn't have tantrums. Then I think of the video of Casey from jail, how it looks like she is throwing a tantrum. Maybe Casey decided she was the only one allowed to throw a tantrum?

:cow:

 

[joypath]

:maddening: Hate when real life takes time away from WS!

:twocents: Fantastic work on those pictures, hopefully there has been an enhancement performed because they tell quite a story. Caylee's foot placement seems to be in question: IMO the image could be obtained pre-or post-rigor, basically impossible to determine as outsiders since we are not privy to the dimensions of the vehicle and the "raw pattern" data. For sure tho' gravity did not pull down Caylee's foot/feet to leave a "traditional" pattern.
:twocents: The decomp rate and amount: IF Caylee was enclosed or COVERED by a plastic bag like a tent or a "greenhouse effect", the decomp rate could accelerate in the humidity/heat etc. but definitely the fluids would flow, again the "greenhouse effect". IMHO the "assists" to clean the vehicle permitted the fluid saturation to intensify into the carpet. Now who & when the vehicle was "cleaned" is up for discussion BUT I'm of the opinion that the felon made an attempt after disposing of Caylee. Depending upon the solution(s) utilized, the stain might have been "imprinted" beyond the primary "outline" from the acidic decomp fluid but definitely it did enhance the growth of mold/bacteria and virus population in & under the liner while the vehicle remained secured in the tow yard.
PS: That's also the time period when the MLD (minimal lethal dose) of "whatever used" killed off the primary invading critters BUT the new generations decided to "show up"/regenerate. (I an NOT an entomologist but have experienced picking up decomp saturated items and observing the "undersurface").
FWIW, totally agree that chloroform wasn't the fixative agent. Smart DH, Ynot, just like his beautiful wife!:seeya:
Not sure any of this answers the queries but like you all, just hypothesizing since I haven't seen the evidence.:banghead:

 

[wenwe4]

:maddening: Hate when real life takes time away from WS!

:twocents: Fantastic work on those pictures, hopefully there has been an enhancement performed because they tell quite a story. Caylee's foot placement seems to be in question: IMO the image could be obtained pre-or post-rigor, basically impossible to determine as outsiders since we are not privy to the dimensions of the vehicle and the "raw pattern" data. For sure tho' gravity did not pull down Caylee's foot/feet to leave a "traditional" pattern.
:twocents: The decomp rate and amount: IF Caylee was enclosed or COVERED by a plastic bag like a tent or a "greenhouse effect", the decomp rate could accelerate in the humidity/heat etc. but definitely the fluids would flow, again the "greenhouse effect". IMHO the "assists" to clean the vehicle permitted the fluid saturation to intensify into the carpet. Now who & when the vehicle was "cleaned" is up for discussion BUT I'm of the opinion that the felon made an attempt after disposing of Caylee. Depending upon the solution(s) utilized, the stain might have been "imprinted" beyond the primary "outline" from the acidic decomp fluid but definitely it did enhance the growth of mold/bacteria and virus population in & under the liner while the vehicle remained secured in the tow yard.
PS: That's also the time period when the MLD (minimal lethal dose) of "whatever used" killed off the primary invading critters BUT the new generations decided to "show up"/regenerate. (I an NOT an entomologist but have experienced picking up decomp saturated items and observing the "undersurface").
FWIW, totally agree that chloroform wasn't the fixative agent. Smart DH, Ynot, just like his beautiful wife!:seeya:
Not sure any of this answers the queries but like you all, just hypothesizing since I haven't seen the evidence.:banghead:

thank you joypath for your sage and educated wisdom!!!