2010.04.02 *SPECIFIC* Caylee's Position Inside Bags

[ynotdivein]

Hey fellow sleuthers. Seems that this subject has been touched on in many threads and yet we still have not come to consensus on Caylee's final positioning inside the bags BEFORE she was left on Suburban.

Some ground rules:

1. We will be working here with some known facts--mainly the eventual dispersion of her remains and the positioning of the bags that were found in Dec. 2008--to tell us how she may have been placed in the bags. If your post relies on later findings, such as theories about dispersion of remains, to support your point about how she may have been originally inside the bags, please make sure you wrap back around and keep on topic.

2. We will also be working with hypotheses about what we DON'T know--namely, what happened to Caylee before she was placed into the bags. If you are hypothesizing please support with links where possible and stay open to other posters' views even if they conflict with yours.

3. This topic will rely on some great work that has been done on other threads, such as the stain on trunk liner and laundry bag threads. Please assist the effort by bringing images and posts over but do try to advance the discussion at the same time by adding your hypotheses and questions. I want this thread to be very well informed yet very narrowly focused.

4. Understand that no one posting or reading here is relishing contemplating this topic, but remember that we are honoring Caylee by treating what happened to her with our respectful diligence on her behalf.

5. Play nice!

SO... how do YOU understand that Caylee was placed in the bags before she was left on Suburban? And why do you believe that?

 

[ynotdivein]

JBean where is your crickets link? I tried and can't make it come through...

I will start. It is MOO that Caylee was in blanket in trunk after July 15, laying on her L side as per sleuthing on Stain in Trunk Liner thread... That blanket was used as sling to slide her feet-first into garbage bags. That garbage bags were then grabbed by handles and these were manipulated again feet first into laundry bag, which was then slung into trunk by handles held in right hand, so as to be repositioned there essentially over where she had initially lain.

Still not sure how the LE photos of bag, after it had been submerged and crumpled at Suburban and then stretched out for photos, fit into my scenario.

MOOchas gracias WSers!

 

[BondJamesBond]

Hey fellow sleuthers. Seems that this subject has been touched on in many threads and yet we still have not come to consensus on Caylee's final positioning inside the bags BEFORE she was left on Suburban.

Some ground rules:

1. We will be working here with some known facts--mainly the eventual dispersion of her remains and the positioning of the bags that were found in Dec. 2008--to tell us how she may have been placed in the bags. If your post relies on later findings, such as theories about dispersion of remains, to support your point about how she may have been originally inside the bags, please make sure you wrap back around and keep on topic.

2. We will also be working with hypotheses about what we DON'T know--namely, what happened to Caylee before she was placed into the bags. If you are hypothesizing please support with links where possible and stay open to other posters' views even if they conflict with yours.

3. This topic will rely on some great work that has been done on other threads, such as the stain on trunk liner and laundry bag threads. Please assist the effort by bringing images and posts over but do try to advance the discussion at the same time by adding your hypotheses and questions. I want this thread to be very well informed yet very narrowly focused.

4. Understand that no one posting or reading here is relishing contemplating this topic, but remember that we are honoring Caylee by treating what happened to her with our respectful diligence on her behalf.

5. Play nice!

SO... how do YOU understand that Caylee was placed in the bags before she was left on Suburban? And why do you believe that?

*BBM*

Esp. re: "narrowly focused."

As Ynot so kindly indicated, :thumb: there is reference work already done in other threads. So, please, lets not have things running too parallel - and I realize that's a tall request w/ this case :crazy:

For example:

• Remains being transported around the Suburban Dr. site is on [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77477"]Crime Scene Photos #3[/ame]
  
• Positioning of body in the trunk is on [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95915"]Stain on Trunk Liner[/ame]
  
• Laundry bag discussion, overlapping all of these is on [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79981"]The Canvas Laundry Bag[/ame]

...so this thread is 'bout positioning of the body inside the laundry bag.

 

[Zoe Bogart]

I will start. It is MOO that Caylee was in blanket in trunk after July 15,

I'm sure you must mean June 15, because we all know what happened on July 15.

I must have been thinking all along she was placed in the bags in a way in which she was lying across the bottom of the bags - easier to carry, but after looking at the picture, I see the laundry bag is actually a long bag, rather than a wide one. Oh dear. I remember trying to put something rather weighty into a garbage bag a few months ago. I tried to get it in with the narrow side first. It didn't work. For some reason, I could only maneuver it heavy side first - you know, like head side first. Then I had to wrap it in extra bags because the weight of it kept popping holes in the first bags. What an ordeal.

So knowing KC and her lack of doing anything strenuous, I'd think she'd do it the easiest way possible. I would think putting at 36 - 40 pound child in a bag would not be easy. I do tend to think Caylee was stuffed into the bags before being placed in the trunk. How else to get her out of the house without being seen? Unless she died in the car. Then there would be the trouble of stuffing her into the bags inside the car/trunk. :waitasec:

I'll let everyone else decide on position because quite frankly, I have no idea.

 

[ynotdivein]

I'm sure you must mean June 15, because we all know what happened on July 15.

:blushing: I pulled a Baez!

 

[treeseeker]

Pg 2/10, autopsy report: http://www.wftv.com/pdf/19801734/detail.html

This suggested to me the body was in a fetal position, with the back and rear exposed to the initial carnivore activity.

 

[wenwe4]

Just ran this scenario past a friend (who is not @ all interested in this case BTW) and her thoughts were "it would be easier to place the body in head first because then you would not have to worry about arms and legs sticking out like tree limbs". My friend felt it would make for a smoother transition into the bags. She did not feel it would be beneficial to place the 2 plastic bags in the laundry bag with the opening @ the bottom of the laundry bag, due to the leakage factor from the opening (that part I agree with). Not sure I buy the whole head first into the bag idea yet, but there are people making me rethink my position.

 

[wenwe4]

Position of the laundry bag found @ dumpsite

photo from this link:
http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/021809remainsfoundOCSOpictures_set4/indexGallery.htm

Just wanted to add this for further reference

 

[Harmony 2]

Pg 2/10, autopsy report: http://www.wftv.com/pdf/19801734/detail.html

This suggested to me the body was in a fetal position, with the back and rear exposed to the initial carnivore activity.

I concur my friend... I don't have alot of time to expand on my thoughts but I tend to think she was placed in the bags feet first. I think she may have been curled up even more than the following depictions and when carnivores pulled away the main trunk the extremities and skull were left at the main dumping site. (Horrific to type but to evade and sugar coat would minimize the indignity of what happened to her.)

posting the following for reference:

ETA: link for photos: http://images.google.com/imgres?img...l=en&sa=N&rlz=1T4TSHB_enUS235US236&tbs=isch:1

 

[Cat13067]

Just ran this scenario past a friend (who is not @ all interested in this case BTW) and her thoughts were "it would be easier to place the body in head first because then you would not have to worry about arms and legs sticking out like tree limbs". My friend felt it would make for a smoother transition into the bags. She did not feel it would be beneficial to place the 2 plastic bags in the laundry bag with the opening @ the bottom of the laundry bag, due to the leakage factor from the opening (that part I agree with). Not sure I buy the whole head first into the bag idea yet, but there are people making me rethink my position.

I agree wih your friend.

I'm thinking KC may have put one plastic bag over her head first, and then put the other plastic bag over her feet first, so she would be fully encased in the plastic. It would make sense that the heaviest part of the body would go in the canvas bag first. Almost like putting a pillow case on a pillow. Sliding the canvas bag under the plastic bags, and shimming the canvas bag over Caylee's body.

I have done the same thing with the plastic bags when I have something that is smelly or dripping, so it won't get all over my trash cans.

 

[ynotdivein]

I agree wih your friend.

I'm thinking KC may have put one plastic bag over her head first, and then put the other plastic bag over her feet first, so she would be fully encased in the plastic. It would make sense that the heaviest part of the body would go in the canvas bag first. Almost like putting a pillow case on a pillow. Sliding the canvas bag under the plastic bags, and shimming the canvas bag over Caylee's body.

I have done the same thing with the plastic bags when I have something that is smelly or dripping, so it won't get all over my trash cans.

Cat13, thanks for giving me another angle to consider! Had not considered that possibility.

 

[wenwe4]

Bringing this over from laundry bag thread to add further forensic info on how the bag and remains were found at the dump site, in an effort to attempt to put things back together in the bag.

This is definitely the laundry bag and the garbage bag. On p. 3480 the location of several items are given.

I've interpreted it in relation to the skull as if you are facing the skull with your back to Suburban Dr.

Skull was 19 ft, 8 in. from Suburban Drive (measured from S. edge of
east-bound lane. 87 ft from the light pole located west of the site along the east-bound lane of Suburban

Disney bag was 1/2 in. behind and 9 inches to the right of the skull .

Black bag was 1 ft, 3 1/2 in. in front of and 1 ft, 7 in. to the right of the skull.

Canvas bag was 1 ft, 7 1/2 in. in front of and 1 1/2 ft. to the right of the
skull.

Shorts were 10 1/2 in. in front of and 9 in. to the right of the skull.

You can see that the pic shows the exact proximetry of the bags to each other as in the narrative.

I am now wondering (given the close proximity to the skull) if the Disney bag wasn't placed over Caylee's face first before being stuffed into bags. I would love to know what was found on the "inside" of the Disney bag, the 2 garbage bags and the laundry bag. (imprint stains perhaps?)

 

[wenwe4]

This appears to be the laundry bag from the scene (although it could be the WTP blanket) just using size comparison from the searchers gloved hand. I am leaning more towards the laundry bag as it appears to me to look like the 2 black plastic bags are up and off to the right from the large white piece. Any other thoughts?

http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/021809remainsfoundOCSOpictures_set4/1/lg/196683.htm

 

[mom2chloe]

I agree wih your friend.

I'm thinking KC may have put one plastic bag over her head first, and then put the other plastic bag over her feet first, so she would be fully encased in the plastic. It would make sense that the heaviest part of the body would go in the canvas bag first. Almost like putting a pillow case on a pillow. Sliding the canvas bag under the plastic bags, and shimming the canvas bag over Caylee's body.
I have done the same thing with the plastic bags when I have something that is smelly or dripping, so it won't get all over my trash cans.

BBM

Sadly, I think the exact same way.

 

[ynotdivein]

Will preface this by saying, I have completely confused myself and no longer have any firm idea of anything--what Caylee was wrapped in when she was in the trunk OR what direction she was placed in the bags.

But I did notice this:

 

[notthatsmart]

Does anyone have the links to the old threads about the location of the bones? I am not sure that Caylee was ever in any of these bags. Also are there docs to support it? I know Ym said it appeared as though the bones were in the bag, but is there any doc that says the bones were indeed in the bag or bags? thanks

 

[flourish]

Does anyone have the links to the old threads about the location of the bones? I am not sure that Caylee was ever in any of these bags. Also are there docs to support it? I know Ym said it appeared as though the bones were in the bag, but is there any doc that says the bones were indeed in the bag or bags? thanks

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79981&highlight=laundry+bag


This thread might be a good place for you to start looking for information on the laundry bags...or to refresh your memory or whatever

 

[ynotdivein]

 

[treeseeker]

Harmony2, you made a very good point - the indignity is important to understand. Head first into the canvas bag suggests, to me, possible hesitancy on KCs part to handle her child's body. More handling, such as any stuffing or arranging, would indicate less hesitancy. This would give me, in my mind, a more complete idea of how intentional Caylee's death was. Given that KC apparently had no visceral reaction - cool as a cucumber after borrowing the neighbor's shovel - well, top it with any sort of complicated body arrangement, suggests a more intentional act.

I'm certainly no psychiatrist, and I could be completely wrong in my thinking.

 

[Zoe Bogart]

Here's a picture of the bag I had imagined. This is why I thought Caylee was placed in the bottom. But the picture shown in above posts show it's a long bag. This is the same brand, Krush Can by Whitney Design. I thought it would be easier to carry something as heavy as a child. Perhaps the second one the family had was like this?:

I'm thinking KC may have put one plastic bag over her head first, and then put the other plastic bag over her feet first, so she would be fully encased in the plastic. It would make sense that the heaviest part of the body would go in the canvas bag first. Almost like putting a pillow case on a pillow. Sliding the canvas bag under the plastic bags, and shimming the canvas bag over Caylee's body.

That's what I was thinking, too, until I read everyone else's posts. That's also what I had to do when tossing out a heavy object.

About that neighbor's shovel, I tend to think she *thought* of burying her somewhere, but it was too much trouble, thus not much evidence on the shovel. Maybe the ground was too hard, or she realized she'd have to dig a rather large hole. Total deterrents for someone lazy.