2010.05.13 Prosecution lists Aggravating Factors

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The tape is a big deal to the Defense. JB even stating:
“They still don't know when that duct tape was placed there, who placed it there and how it was placed,” Baez said after the hearing.

They really need to read the ME report. re: fluids etc

link for quote
http://www.wftv.com/news/23545577/detail.html
 
The tape is a big deal to the Defense. JB even stating:
“They still don't know when that duct tape was placed there, who placed it there and how it was placed,” Baez said after the hearing.

They really need to read the ME report. re: fluids etc

link for quote
http://www.wftv.com/news/23545577/detail.html

Apparently after listening to Lyon(s) during the hearing and at the post hearing media blah blah session - yes, it is just too much trouble to read the evidence reports. Baez, why don't you, Lyon(s) and Conway get together and do that little thing?
 
http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/p075.htm

With planning or deliberation. The amount of time needed for premeditation regarding an act depends on the person and the circumstances. It must be long enough, after forming the intent to act, for the person to have been fully conscious of the intent and to have considered the act.

snipped

Murder by poisoning must of necessity be done with premeditation

Now I wonder if this is why the SA included premeidation?
 
ITA with those who are predicting the defense will whine about this list. I'm expecting JB to have both a problem with the word "may", and the fact that the SA isn't spelling out their specific methods for applying each factor. They're going to want the SA to explain exactly how they plan to argue 'cruel and heinous' when the ME stated cause of death as homicide by undetermined means. The duct tape is the elephant in the room. The defense is terrified of it, and that's what all of this wrangling and whining is about, IMO.

While I agree with everyone who says the defense is going to complain about the State's response, I say, "Go ahead!" JP will cut them off at the knees. That kind of ridiculous babyish behavior is exactly what he warned against. If JB and Co. are stupid enough to ask the State to provide them with a thesis on their reasons for asking for the DP when they clearly have the discovery then they deserve the butt-kicking they will get in court from JP. I rest my case. :dance:
 
Isn't it strange that we all came up with the same idea of what the defense will do next? LOL! How long do you think it will be before this motion is filed? Friday afternoon at 10 minutes to 5 is my guess. lOL!

Bold mine.

I know you were saying this somewhat facetiously, but "quite frankly" (hehe) I bet they do file that, and a bunch of others along with it.
 
http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/premeditation/

Premeditation is planning, plotting or deliberating before doing something. For example, murder by poisoning automatically includes an element of premeditation.

snipped...

The amount of time necessary between the planning and the act to prove premeditation is judged on a case by case basis. Murder in the first degree consists of an intentional, deliberate and premeditated killing, which means that the killing is done after a period of time for prior consideration. The duration of that period cannot be arbitrarily fixed. The time in which to form a deliberate and premeditated design varies as the minds and temperaments of people differ, and according to the circumstances in which they may be placed."



Time varies but poison seems to be an automatic premeditation.Could there be a report we haven't seen yet indicating Caylee was poisoned?
 
Great post, faefrost. I think you are very very close. :dance:

I have a question? About premediation. I thought premediation could be a very short period of time. For example...if KC covered Caylee's nose and mouth with tape and chose not to remove the tape for however long Caylee struggled to breath and then die :( is that not considered premediation?

I remember hearing somewhere that premeditation can be as simple as leaving the house with duck tape. But I am not sure if that is the case or not. I still think the fake Nanny is premeditation. Lee is on record saying that his sister often tells small irrelevant lies that lay the foundation for a much bigger lie down the road. If that is not premeditation, I don't know what is. But I guess the state would have to prove intent and that is hard to do.
 
http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/p075.htm

With planning or deliberation. The amount of time needed for premeditation regarding an act depends on the person and the circumstances. It must be long enough, after forming the intent to act, for the person to have been fully conscious of the intent and to have considered the act.

snipped

Murder by poisoning must of necessity be done with premeditation

Now I wonder if this is why the SA included premeidation?

What about the fact that she told CA she was going on a trip with Caylee and would be out of town for awhile. She arranged it so that she would not have to face CA and answer questions about the missing, Caylee. Could this have been premeditation?
 
The kind of "premeditation" needed to prove first-degree murder is just basically enough time to realize what you're doing and stop. The type of "premeditation" needed for the aggravating circumstance is cold, calculating premeditation which means actually thinking about it and planning.
 
ITA with those who are predicting the defense will whine about this list. I'm expecting JB to have both a problem with the word "may", ...

I'm expecting the Judge to have a problem with the words may and argue.

"the state will list ... the aggravating factors that it intends to prove."

JP didn't order the State to list the aggravating factors it may argue.

I hardly think anyone, including JP, would deem intends to prove as being synonymous with may argue.
 
Am I missing something...wasn't this all disclosed before? Or was it just here that we discussed the aggravating factors? Why was it necessary to get this put forth in a motion? Why did Baez request this? Was this the first time that he did or did it take a different form once upon another time? I know he wanted the SA to spit out something. There's got be a reason why he wanted this formally filed.

PS-For Everyone's Information- I think BJB pretty much debunked the whole "Casey searched for missing children's websites". It did not happen prior to June 16th!
It's a MYTH! :)
 
Am I missing something...wasn't this all disclosed before? Or was it just here that we discussed the aggravating factors? Why was it necessary to get this put forth in a motion? Why did Baez request this? Was this the first time that he did or did it take a different form once upon another time? I know he wanted the SA to spit out something. There's got be a reason why he wanted this formally filed.

I think it's all tied in with the ME's unknown cause of death.
 
The kind of "premeditation" needed to prove first-degree murder is just basically enough time to realize what you're doing and stop. The type of "premeditation" needed for the aggravating circumstance is cold, calculating premeditation which means actually thinking about it and planning.

Thanks AZL ~ That's always been my understanding of it also.

So, the "enough time" could simply be argued that the amount of time that it took her to go to wherever the duct tape was at at the time. Whether it was in the garage, the kitchen, under the bed, or right next to her; for instance on the nightstand where she may have left it last from using it for something else. {not at all saying it WAS on the nightstand, using this an example}
The simple fact that she reached for, or, took the time to go get it, makes it premediated because she KNEW what she was going to do with it.

The second part of your explanation could be argued and or suggested then, that this same time that it took her to go get the duct tape, knowing what she was going to do with it when she returned.
There is a time frame of going to or reaching for the duct tape before placing it on Caylee.
Reaching over to the "nightstand", or, going to to garage, etc, gives her time to "think" about her actions, regardless if the lapse of time is 2 seconds or 2 minutes.
She knew what she would do with it when it was in her hands, and, she followed through with it.
This would result in the Calculating Premediation, IMO, if I've understood the meaning as put forth, and, from other cases and explanations.

She had also had "time" once she returned to change her mind.
She tore off 3 peices at least that went over Caylee's mouth. Whether those were placed all at once, or, one, then tear off peice number two, place it, then tear off peice number three. She had "time" between each peice to change her mind and STOP.
 
I also think it is great the way Ashton whipped out that one page document for the defense.

Had I been him, I would have stood back up when it was ordered that day, and told Judge Belvin, that I would save him the time of reading more motions, and look directly at the defense, and repeat exactly what he wrote out.

Course, I suppose that wouldn't have gone over very well, but, man, that's what I would have wanted to whip out on em and then blow em a kiss and turn and pat my arse.
 
So, the only new aggravating factor is #2 cruel crime. The SA dropped the DP when it felt the other 4 were not enough.

From a layman’s opinion, which is based on the evidence we know of, (which certainly does not include some of the evidence that JA and JB knows of), I think that aggravating factors 4 and 5 are simply undisputable facts. Those 2 are enough, by law, for the state to ask for the DP, however, although the state had those two and felt they also had 1 and 3, they still dropped the DP. Does JA feel he needs 5 aggravating factors? From the evidence I have seen in via the Sunshine law, I do not see evidence that KC committed a premeditated murder, and I do not see any evidence that places KC at the site of the remains, so I just don’t see how aggravating factors 1, 2 and 3 will hold up. They may hold up at the upcoming hearing, because neither side is going to try this case at the hearing, so we will only be listening to arguments. JA will probably win these arguments. HHJP will allow the DP to stand, because aggravating factors 4 or 5 is all that is required to ask for the DP.
IF this case goes to trial, the prosecution will have a tough time proving premeditated murder beyond a reasonable doubt based on the evidence we have seen via the Sunshine law, and although I know we have not seen all the evidence, I still think the prosecution has their work cut out for them at trial.
Based on the Notice of Aggravating Factors I say, IF this case goes to trial, because I think there is a good possibility that the prosecution is still going to offer a plea deal before the trial starts. If KC pleaded out, that would be considered a win for the prosecution, and I think they would be happy to take a plea deal versus going to court with what they have and run a risk of a possible hung jury or even possibly losing the case. Even if KC were innocent, it may be in her best interest to plead out if the state offered a good enough deal, because there is the possibility that she may lose the case and be executed. Innocent people have been convicted before, and murderers have walked free, a plea may be the best case scenario for both sides. As always, my entire post is my opinion only.
 
ROFL! *bows down to you* We are not worthy!!!! You rock, AZlawyer!

That, and I think most of us knew it too. I swear, the defense is like a bunch of kindergarteners needing to be lead by the hand...

well "quite frankly" you get what you pay for....oh wait perhaps because al is pro bono???????????:sick: lol
 
Thanks AZL ~ That's always been my understanding of it also.

So, the "enough time" could simply be argued that the amount of time that it took her to go to wherever the duct tape was at at the time. Whether it was in the garage, the kitchen, under the bed, or right next to her; for instance on the nightstand where she may have left it last from using it for something else. {not at all saying it WAS on the nightstand, using this an example}
The simple fact that she reached for, or, took the time to go get it, makes it premediated because she KNEW what she was going to do with it.

The second part of your explanation could be argued and or suggested then, that this same time that it took her to go get the duct tape, knowing what she was going to do with it when she returned.
There is a time frame of going to or reaching for the duct tape before placing it on Caylee.
Reaching over to the "nightstand", or, going to to garage, etc, gives her time to "think" about her actions, regardless if the lapse of time is 2 seconds or 2 minutes.
She knew what she would do with it when it was in her hands, and, she followed through with it.
This would result in the Calculating Premediation, IMO, if I've understood the meaning as put forth, and, from other cases and explanations.

She had also had "time" once she returned to change her mind.
She tore off 3 peices at least that went over Caylee's mouth. Whether those were placed all at once, or, one, then tear off peice number two, place it, then tear off peice number three. She had "time" between each peice to change her mind and STOP.


There's all of that and the time it would take for Caylee to actually suffocate. After placing the tape on her did Casey stand there and watch or what? A very powerful presentation can be made by the prosecution for that alone in addition.
 
Apparently after listening to Lyon(s) during the hearing and at the post hearing media blah blah session - yes, it is just too much trouble to read the evidence reports. Baez, why don't you, Lyon(s) and Conway get together and do that little thing?

did you notice that during one of the hearings when cm mentioned Ms. Lyon(s)--HE USED THE "S"---he called her LYONS
 
Okay, I am now thinking maybe JB and crew wanted a little more spelled out for them. Obviously they knew the answers just supplied, at least one would hope, what with AL and LKB on board, and now CM.

I think they want to know if chloroform will part of the State's argument. Even the State knows that will be a tough one to toss in. The defense team wants to be sure just what way the State will say KC killed Caylee. They have to debunk whatever theory, which is their job, but they want to be prepared for all theories. Maybe LKB does not want to chase down every squirrel to find one nut. Lol. Why don't they just let CM take over, he seems to know the Florida system best.

(OT, why was that lady there for AL at the last hearing, the one without any proper degrees to be sitting there much less speaking? AL should know that any expert witness she brings must have a degree or two in that given field before they can be allowed to testify. Actually, a 60 page CV would be nice. This lady was just some of the wall character. She wrote some papers? So can you or I. Huh? She cannot be a defense/prosecution regular witness, she knows nothing about the case or anyone involved, she does not even live in Florida. I just found it odd, and was AL testing the Judge? Weird.)
 
Defense will argue the ME's report..Homicide by underdetermined means. They will argue the state can't prove COD...which they don't have to anyway!
They will show means, motive and opportunity..IMO

They will argue the duct tape, they can't say who put it on Caylee or when it was put on Caylee or where it was put on Caylee.

They will argue ICA was a good mother, all her friends will say so...human decomp event in the trunk, doesn't make her a good mother..she's admitted to drugging Caylee so she can party, also in the jailhouse communications.

They will argue the Tennesse Lab results from the trunk of the pontiac.."Junk Science"...

My thinking is, ICA was the last one known to be with Caylee. She never reports an allegedly abduction, or Caylee not being returned. She's got three stories on how Caylee was taken if you count the jailhouse letters/communications. She does nothing to help LE locate this alleged ZFG, she's lied from the start..she did nothing to help find Caylee for IMO, she knew where she was the entire time. She allowed Caylee to lay in the elements for over 6 months while she memorialized her life with her party life, a tattoo and the diary of days. I wish the State could use that diary of days for it shows her state of mind. I don't believe that was written back in 2003...the handwritting is more mature, IMO...

There will be no plea deal, that ship sailed long ago. I feel if her attorneys' truly want to save her life, they should inform ICA you may not walk on this as we first thought. Maybe you'd consider pleading guilty and take a LWOP sentence, at least you get to live...JMHO


Justice For Caylee
 
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