2010.06.09 Prosecutors File for 911 Calls to Come into Trial

[Solace]

Dr. Robert Hare, a Canadian, is one of the leading shrinks and researchers in the area of Psychopaths. He was recently the Scientific Consultant on a movie done in collaboration with a psychopath. This is what the director had to say about the experience.

"Psychopaths…they’ll charm you, manipulate you, then ruin your life. But, not all of them with a gun or a knife. In this extra-ordinary documentary, suspected psychopath Sam Vaknin goes in search of a diagnosis…was he born without a conscience?

“Making a movie with a psychopath,” declares I, Psychopath’s director Ian Walker, “is a little like poking a snake with a stick.” Unwittingly, the film-maker becomes a textbook victim.

Joined by Vaknin’s long-suffering but ever-loyal wife Lidija, the threesome embark on a diagnostic road trip to the world’s top experts in psychopathy in which Vaknin (and his wife) undergo a battery of rigorous psychological tests and neuroscientific experiments. He is the world’s first civilian to willingly seek a diagnosis for psychopathy.

The former corporate criminal turns out to be a way better psychopath than any of them imagined. When things don’t quite go his way, Vaknin turns on the Director, unleashing vicious displays of verbal abuse which show the psychopath in ‘bullying mode” and make for some of the most disturbing moments in the film. "

By the end, Walker almost calls it quits on his own film rather than spend another day with its main subject.

D'ya think maybe Cindy was a little out of her depth trying to deal with ICA but bound by a mother's love?

I just watched part of the documentary I, Psychopath and all I could stand was a few minutes. He is just obnoxious. Truly. I have a feeling Ted Bundy was a lot more charasmatic.

 

[Solace]

Solace I am agreeing with much of what you are saying. I am in no way trying to negate Cindy's behavior - at all! I'm talking root cause - you're discussing cause and effect. Cindy has much to answer for.

I agree Logicalgirl. But the root cause of Casey's problems stem from Cindy's not reigning her in and making her go to a counselor at 14 when she started stealing. This is around the age the sociopathic personality emerges. Casey is right on schedule. And she did not start out small, she went for 200 from her brothers account and moved forward. And as she was left to her own devices, the stronger her illness got - the more she got away with it - the smarter she thought she was.

I have no doubt that Casey figured I can just lie about my whereabouts for the longest time and come time of reckoning my parents will back me up and guess what - they are.

Unless you are talking about something else and I am missing it.

 

[logicalgirl]

I agree Logicalgirl. But the root cause of Casey's problems stem from Cindy's not reigning her in and making her go to a counselor at 14 when she started stealing. This is around the age the sociopathic personality emerges. Casey is right on schedule. And she did not start out small, she went for 200 from her brothers account and moved forward. And as she was left to her own devices, the stronger her illness got - the more she got away with it - the smarter she thought she was.

I have no doubt that Casey figured I can just lie about my whereabouts for the longest time and come time of reckoning my parents will back me up and guess what - they are.

Unless you are talking about something else and I am missing it.

I wish I could put my hand on one criminal case Dr. Hare consulted on and I quoted on these threads. It describes the defendant's accelerating behavior, with the mother begging for her son's life during the mitigation phase, saying there was still time for him to make a contribution to society. She was completely ignoring the fact that her son attempted to murder both her and her husband, who is the son's blood parent.

I don't think we are disagreeing on much, just that I don't believe there is one box for each diagnosis, for a sociopath and a psychopath. While I believe ICA is a psychopath, there is no official diagnosis of this condition and certainly no treatment. We don't know if age 14 is when ICA's behavior accelerated, and we certainly know of evil children who kill with no remorse. Take the case of the two pre-puberty boys in England who tortured and killed the two year, for one. Watching her show no emotion whatsoever in court I believe there is nothing Cindy could have done to influence ICA, but that ICA toyed with the members of her family like a cat would do with a cornered mouse.

Which still doesn't explain or excuse Cindy's bizarre behavior or her own personality disorder.

 

[The World According]

Logical Girl and Solice I want to thank you this morning and encourage you. It is good to see a calm, respectful discussion. For the lurkers, please join us and post. We learn a lot from differing opinions and as you see here...we really do not bite!!

The more we see of the pair of them ,mom and pop, the more aware I become aware of the level of harm and arrested emotional development Cindy and George caused Casey by their lazy, complacent lack of guidance. IMO they basically copped out on teaching her character by any example, or consequence for her actions. It just seems that was not a priority in their family.

The Bible Says:
"He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24)

I have had to turn to the bible more in the last two years, than I have ever, because I surely just don't get why this baby is dead. I would have adopted her in minute. I am sure we all would have.

 

[logicalgirl]

Logical Girl and Solice I want to thank you this morning and encourage you. It is good to see a calm, respectful discussion. For the lurkers, please join us and post. We learn a lot from differing opinions and as you see here...we really do not bite!!

The more we see of the pair of them ,mom and pop, the more aware I become aware of the level of harm and arrested emotional development Cindy and George caused Casey by their lazy, complacent lack of guidance. IMO they basically copped out on teaching her character by any example, or consequence for her actions. It just seems that was not a priority in their family.

The Bible Says:
"He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24)

I have had to turn to the bible more in the last two years, than I have ever, because I surely just don't get why this baby is dead. I would have adopted her in minute. I am sure we all would have.

Thanks for that TWA, and yes, people, please join in. I am learning as I go along and forming opinions and who says I'm right anyhow? LOL

It's all IMO! Join in.

 

[Mendara]

Tiff,

If you listen to the end of the call, you will here Cindy trying to tell George, who has just arrived, that Caylee is missing. It is heartwrenching. She cannot get the words out. She tries 3 times to say Caylee - It is at the end of the call. There is no way this is a contrived call. Lee tells prosecutors that he had to hold on to his mother and George says he was also trying to hold on to Cindy and she literally fell apart. She is devastated and she HAS put the smell together with the missing Caylee. IMO

When I read posts like this it breaks my heart because I have always suspected that Cindy, George and Lee all knew that Casey was responsible for Caylee's death, but there was a turning point where they all decided that they had to switch gears and protect Casey instead of fight for justice for Caylee. I am convinced that they believe they pushed Casey to the poitn where she killed Caylee in an accident - in a fit and all feel they have to help cover it up. Like this murder is their own private mistake and no one has the right to go in there and make Casey pay for it.

Just really sad because I know Cindy was absolutely frightened when she put together her daughter's lies and the smell in that car.

IMO

 

[Solace]

When I read posts like this it breaks my heart because I have always suspected that Cindy, George and Lee all knew that Casey was responsible for Caylee's death, but there was a turning point where they all decided that they had to switch gears and protect Casey instead of fight for justice for Caylee. I am convinced that they believe they pushed Casey to the poitn where she killed Caylee in an accident - in a fit and all feel they have to help cover it up. Like this murder is their own private mistake and no one has the right to go in there and make Casey pay for it.

Just really sad because I know Cindy was absolutely frightened when she put together her daughter's lies and the smell in that car.

IMO

Mendara,

Good post. I never thought they felt they pushed her but you may very well be right. Either pushed her by enabling her or she was pushed by the argument over the weekend. Good post.

But Lee was not living at home and I think he is just going along because his first interview with the police he is not happy with Casey at all.

 

[Solace]

I wish I could put my hand on one criminal case Dr. Hare consulted on and I quoted on these threads. It describes the defendant's accelerating behavior, with the mother begging for her son's life during the mitigation phase, saying there was still time for him to make a contribution to society. She was completely ignoring the fact that her son attempted to murder both her and her husband, who is the son's blood parent.

I don't think we are disagreeing on much, just that I don't believe there is one box for each diagnosis, for a sociopath and a psychopath. While I believe ICA is a psychopath, there is no official diagnosis of this condition and certainly no treatment. We don't know if age 14 is when ICA's behavior accelerated, and we certainly know of evil children who kill with no remorse. Take the case of the two pre-puberty boys in England who tortured and killed the two year, for one. Watching her show no emotion whatsoever in court I believe there is nothing Cindy could have done to influence ICA, but that ICA toyed with the members of her family like a cat would do with a cornered mouse.

Which still doesn't explain or excuse Cindy's bizarre behavior or her own personality disorder.

I have to agree Logical. I don't think there is much that would change Casey and how can one tell if you are even getting through (time only) because they lie so much.

She must have been lying nonstop since Cindy told Ryan Paisley even before this all happened that Casey was a sociopath.

What boggles my mind is that Cindy knows Casey is unbalanced and has no money and no job but still lets her leave with this child every day and stay out five nights a week at Ricardos (although she says one or twice a month - I believe Ricardo and it was more like 5). So anyway, she knows she has no job, no money and lets her take the baby out every day.

It is incredible to me since Cindy had such a deep love for Caylee. We need a shrink with this one. Why would she take such a chance with a baby in the hands of a sociopath who has no money, no job and leaves Caylee at the mercy of Casey's whims, which are usually bad choices. Amy Huizenga said she brought the baby to a few adult parties and Amy did not like it at all. Cindy knew this - she found pictures of Casey at the "no clothes party" and confronted her; yet she STILL let her take this baby.

I would not be able to think of anything all day except how Caylee was doing if she were with her mother. Nothing, nada, knowing what a liar and thief she was and what she was capable of. Never. Not to mention Casey was probably staying at places that have not even been mentioned yet. No one knows who the father was. I know that Cindy mentioned being furious that Casey brought Caylee home with flee bites all over. Please tell me how she went to work knowing that Caylee was with this lunatic Casey.

OKAY, THAT is why Cindy keeps reiterating what a good mother Casey was - relieves her guilt. No wonder she can't work. Wait till the trial starts and all these little things start coming out that we don't know about - there have to be some - because I can't get all of the police interviews and there has to be some things that are shocking and would make one ask why would cindy and george let this continue.

George is a moron and all he can come up with is "you gotta be kiddin me".

 

[ynotdivein]

The Federal Agent interviewing Cindy and then George, the one that had them each fill out a long questionnaire about a personality profile...summed it up perfectly.

He was very polite to her, but when he got pop in front of him, he let him know...

a) Your wife has a very, VERY skewed way, a wholly unrealistic way of looking at Casey, she described her as "Trustworthy, responsible, a great mother".

b) Your wife doesn't separate her identity as different and outside of what Casey does. She spent a great deal of time describing to me what kind of mother she was, down to details of her discipline, how she packed a bag for her kids, how she potty trained. Unable to see Casey as a wholly separate person, she wanted to illustrate to me that Casey couldn't have done this, because SHE couldn't have done this. Casey loved her child because SHE loves her children. Admitting , even to herself, that Casey harmed her baby is tantamount in her mind to her having hurt the baby. The no, no, no NOT MY CHILD, THE CHILD I RAISED.... is actually a common phenomenon. Indeed the jury is often instructed if they deem a witness to have a clear bias , such as this, they of course can set aside their testimony. She is in denial and it does appear to be quite an emotional block. That being said...you sir and I know her prism is not factual, all of Casey's lies, all of the evidence, all of the stories utterly make no sense, yet mom regurgitates them, and endorses them with no awareness of how they are just as silly , the second time around and easily disprovable as they were when they came out of Casey's mouth.

Grandma Shirley said to LE the entire matter in one sentence. Cindy emotionally cannot get to Casey is lying, because if Casey is lying than Caylee is dead, and that thought is simply unbearable!

Grandma Shirley and the Federal Agent have different skill sets, but they both arrived at the truth.

Indeed denial is one of the first mind sets in the grief cycle.

When I first saw C M A in pastel wooden letters on Caylee's nursery/room wall it bothered me. I remember thinking she is not your name sake or a little you, Cindy, she is her own person. It just offended me, why they didn't spell out C A Y L E E. Then when I thought my hearing was failing me, I had to watch some of the home movies over and over and indeed the family was calling this child Cays. No she is not a Casey do over!! In interviews both George and Cindy, Cindy ( more- so ) mentions that Caylee was like getting a second chance to raise Casey. She was to have the same experiences and the same teachers Casey had. WHAT?!!!! Then here we go with the C M A by brother at the memorial, which Lee explained to Mr. Morgan, has always in the Anthony family represented the holy trinity. ( ALL MY PARAPHRASING )

I wish I could get to the point in one wise soundbite like Grandmother Shirley. What I am trying to say is she may come out of the fog eventually, but what we have seen from mom so far is a very narcissistic person worrying over how things reflect on HER. She has no use for Casey, save for that. if you don't believe me, ask Cindy's brother Rick.

:applause:

"Thanks not enough" button needed.

TWA, the bits I bolded above were real "aha" moments for me while reading your post, so thank you for sharing your perceptions. It was a mindset so all-encompassing that it was manifested right there for all to see... the blurring, no not even blurring: the LACK of healthy identity boundaries, just amazing. It makes me wonder how they alit on Caylee's name. Was "Caylee" meant to be half Casey, half Lee, for Cindy?

So many questions. I guess we're veering toward "Psych Profile" thread stuff here but thanks mods for letting us roam a bit. Thanks to LG and Solace too for a stimulating and respectful discussion.

It's my understanding that there is no clear delineation between "psychopath" and "sociopath" in the DSM sense, but the criterion of "planned vs. spontaneous" deception kind of resonates with me at least. Do we have a resident psychologist or psychiatrist who can weigh in on this? Like, we need a "Questions for Our VERIFIED Psych PhDs" thread!

 

[gitana1]

When I read posts like this it breaks my heart because I have always suspected that Cindy, George and Lee all knew that Casey was responsible for Caylee's death, but there was a turning point where they all decided that they had to switch gears and protect Casey instead of fight for justice for Caylee. I am convinced that they believe they pushed Casey to the poitn where she killed Caylee in an accident - in a fit and all feel they have to help cover it up. Like this murder is their own private mistake and no one has the right to go in there and make Casey pay for it.

Just really sad because I know Cindy was absolutely frightened when she put together her daughter's lies and the smell in that car.

IMO

This is an excellent post. I think you nail it on the head regarding how they felt, when they turned from frightened and knowing to trying to cover up and the family dynamic of dealing with a "private mistake" and their outrage that anyone else would try to step in and deal with it.

That they feel they pushed casey is truly evident in their jailhouse visits with her. How CA tells casey, "When you get out, everything will be different. You won't have to work, you can just stay home and take care of Caylee." CA said this in such a sad tone as if to say, "I'm sorry for driving you to this. I wish I had done things differently."
Understand, I do not think the Anthonys are responsible for what casey did but I think they feel guilt, especially CA. I think it is obvious that CA was constantly yelling at casey for not being responsible, for leaving Caylee with her too much and was always questioning her employment status. I think CA blames herself and now has to make sure casey is found innocent so she won't add to her guilt and so she can pretend nothing happened and she was not in part to blame. It's so sad because the things they likely feel guilty for are probably some of the only things they ever did right when it came to dealing with casey.
It is clear on that 911 tape that they knew. They were horrified and they knew. Now they have to cover that up. Tragic indeed.

 

[Solace]

This is an excellent post. I think you nail it on the head regarding how they felt, when they turned from frightened and knowing to trying to cover up and the family dynamic of dealing with a "private mistake" and their outrage that anyone else would try to step in and deal with it.

That they feel they pushed casey is truly evident in their jailhouse visits with her. How CA tells casey, "When you get out, everything will be different. You won't have to work, you can just stay home and take care of Caylee." CA said this in such a sad tone as if to say, "I'm sorry for driving you to this. I wish I had done things differently."
Understand, I do not think the Anthonys are responsible for what casey did but I think they feel guilt, especially CA. I think it is obvious that CA was constantly yelling at casey for not being responsible, for leaving Caylee with her too much and was always questioning her employment status. I think CA blames herself and now has to make sure casey is found innocent so she won't add to her guilt and so she can pretend nothing happened and she was not in part to blame. It's so sad because the things they likely feel guilty for are probably some of the only things they ever did right when it came to dealing with casey.
It is clear on that 911 tape that they knew. They were horrified and they knew. Now they have to cover that up. Tragic indeed.

Did Cindy actually say that to Casey. Do you remember which interview? Not doubting but just want to watch it for myself.

 

[logicalgirl]

I have to agree Logical. I don't think there is much that would change Casey and how can one tell if you are even getting through (time only) because they lie so much.

She must have been lying nonstop since Cindy told Ryan Paisley even before this all happened that Casey was a sociopath.

What boggles my mind is that Cindy knows Casey is unbalanced and has no money and no job but still lets her leave with this child every day and stay out five nights a week at Ricardos (although she says one or twice a month - I believe Ricardo and it was more like 5). So anyway, she knows she has no job, no money and lets her take the baby out every day.

It is incredible to me since Cindy had such a deep love for Caylee. We need a shrink with this one. Why would she take such a chance with a baby in the hands of a sociopath who has no money, no job and leaves Caylee at the mercy of Casey's whims, which are usually bad choices. Amy Huizenga said she brought the baby to a few adult parties and Amy did not like it at all. Cindy knew this - she found pictures of Casey at the "no clothes party" and confronted her; yet she STILL let her take this baby.

I would not be able to think of anything all day except how Caylee was doing if she were with her mother. Nothing, nada, knowing what a liar and thief she was and what she was capable of. Never. Not to mention Casey was probably staying at places that have not even been mentioned yet. No one knows who the father was. I know that Cindy mentioned being furious that Casey brought Caylee home with flee bites all over. Please tell me how she went to work knowing that Caylee was with this lunatic Casey.

OKAY, THAT is why Cindy keeps reiterating what a good mother Casey was - relieves her guilt. No wonder she can't work. Wait till the trial starts and all these little things start coming out that we don't know about - there have to be some - because I can't get all of the police interviews and there has to be some things that are shocking and would make one ask why would cindy and george let this continue.

George is a moron and all he can come up with is "you gotta be kiddin me".

This is a great summary of the why's and Cindy. I haven't a clue - it makes no sense to me at all. I was reading that summary with the detective and George, with the detective saying Cindy gets confused with her own mothering and ICA's mothering, and believes they are one and the same. So if Cindy wouldn't hurt the baby, then ICA wouldn't ? :waitasec::waitasec::waitasec:

That makes no sense at all to me, I don't even have any possible answers. It is all so sad.

 

[Solace]

This is a great summary of the why's and Cindy. I haven't a clue - it makes no sense to me at all. I was reading that summary with the detective and George, with the detective saying Cindy gets confused with her own mothering and ICA's mothering, and believes they are one and the same. So if Cindy wouldn't hurt the baby, then ICA wouldn't ? :waitasec::waitasec::waitasec:

That makes no sense at all to me, I don't even have any possible answers. It is all so sad.

Cindy finally makes the decision to call the police to scare Casey into giving her Caylee and Caylee is already dead. How about living with that. Seriously, it doesn't get any worse.

I have never seen anything like this - I thought the Peterson case was incredible because he had been so obvious, but the family's reaction in this case is something like I have never seen. It's incredible. And I know that Cindy loved this baby. But the baby is being lost in order to protect herself. You have to have courage to admit this though and it is just too painful - Cindy can't.

And Judge Perry is not one to mess around obviously. He is a "law" man and a goes by the letter of it. I mean Cheney looks like this is his first case when Perry starts explaining why he is ruling against the cases Cheney cited. I reallize it is a hard case to defend, but it just seems like they could do better - something. I don't know - I think the worst thing they could have done was get STrickland to recuse. They should have saved that for after the trial when they lost. Bunch of bungling idiots.

 

[magic-cat]

I don't believe Cindy mean't what she said re a damned dead body in the car. Imo it was to evoke a reaction (and get some action) like she now claims. Listening to tape, the 911 dispatcher stays quiet as Cindy says a sentence before the dead body comment. Often when a person isn't getting some kind of recognition like an 'uh huh' or 'yes' and particularly when dealing with law enforcement, emergency services etc the person will then over-elaborate or even fabricate or embellish, not even meaning to. Hindsight is always 20/20 and people say the darndest things under stress or duress, good luck making it fly with a jury though.

I do. I think she meant exactly that. She and George had already agreed that it smelled like a dead body earlier in the day. The employee from work confirms this information by her testimony. Cindy did NOT associate that smell with Caylee not being with KC UNTIL that horrible moment when KC admits that Caylee is indeed missing and has not been seen for 31 days. It is at THAT point that Cindy loses it and goes straight for the phone in her hysteria to call the police. You can hear the utter desperation in her voice in that moment, especially when George comes home and she gushes out to him in a voice breaking with terror, "George Caylee is missing". (Recall HE had already made the association when he was going to the trunk and saying "Please don't let this be my Caylee") He and Cindy had discussed it smelled like a dead body, but until that confirmation that Caylee was missing AND the car smells like a dead body did it dawn on them, in reality, that smell COULD in fact BE Caylee...nobody had seen her for 31 days, sadly.

She was too hysterical to be reacting to the dispatcher. She could barely hold it together.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

My little niece tells me, Aunt Julia...she throws her arms wide open..."I love you BIG!!! I love you this much".

We love him BIG. View attachment 10330

No, seriously... I may be falling in love with him.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Jumping in on the psychopath discussion. I think both Cindy and Casey have personality disorders, but are different. As far as Cindy being able to either raise her as a psychopath (unintentionally through bad parenting because she was herself borderline) or being able to stop, or at least curb Casey from her psychopathic ways, well I just don't think that is possible...if someone like Dr Hare can't do that, how on earth could Cindy have.

Now, leaving your precious baby granddaughter in sole charge of a psychopath? Well nothing can explain that, except that they wildly underestimated Casey and what she was capable of, they probably thought the threat was purely financial, although they don't even seem to have done much in that area to protect themselves either.

 

[gitana1]

Did Cindy actually say that to Casey. Do you remember which interview? Not doubting but just want to watch it for myself.

Yeah, she did. I'll try to find it for you.

 

[Intermezzo]

Did Cindy actually say that to Casey. Do you remember which interview? Not doubting but just want to watch it for myself.

Yeah, she did. I'll try to find it for you.

Solace, I back up gitana1. Yes Cindy did say that comment to Casey in one of the videotaped jailhouse visits...which one? I would have to go look as well.

 

[tiff07]

Many thanks to the WS posters who gave me another perspective on Cindy now backpeddling over the 911 calls. I stand corrected, it is blatantly obvious she believed at the time what she said re the damned dead body. Went and found the full calls, argh, very very sad.

 

[gitana1]

Solace, I back up gitana1. Yes Cindy did say that comment to Casey in one of the videotaped jailhouse visits...which one? I would have to go look as well.

Found it. It's at about the 40 second mark of this visitation. My computer did not have the video and audio synced though.
http://www.wftv.com/video/18206542/index.html