2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

[goatman]

this thread is about TH seeking visitation and modifying the RO.

I am sorry, I thought that because it was in the motion we could discuss it here, my apologies.

 

[JBean]

If she truly loved that child, she would move heaven and earth to see her, put all of her dirty cards on the table and not care about the consequences. The fact that she still wants to hide everything but see her child is just not right. She can't have it both ways.

she has to put her own oxygen mask on first.she has to look at this more globally. if she needs to stay off the stand to stay out of jail, then that is the path to the child. If the consequences are life in jail, she may never see her child.
Just an observation.

 

[Aedrys]

she has to put her own oxygen mask on first.she has to look at this more globally. if she needs to stay off the stand to stay out of jail, then that is the path to the child. If the consequences are life in jail, she may never see her child.
Just an observation.

Well she should have thought about that before committing a crime and trying to cover it up. She can't backtrack now and wish it hadn't happened so she could see her child. If she goes to jail, then it's her fault that she can't see her child. She can't ask for visitation without proof and want Kaine to pay and expect the judge to just okay that. No judge is just going to take her word that she needs to see baby K and then make the custodial father pay for it. That's just not right. That's not putting her baby's needs above her own. That's wanting to see the baby purely on her terms only for her benefit, not the baby's.

Honestly, I respect your opinion, but this a poor excuse of a motion asking for visitation.

 

[JBean]

Well she should have thought about that before committing a crime and trying to cover it up. She can't backtrack now and wish it hadn't happened so she could see her child. If she goes to jail, then it's her fault that she can't see her child. She can't ask for visitation without proof and want Kaine to pay and expect the judge to just okay that. No judge is just going to take her word that she needs to see baby K and then make the custodial father pay for it. That's just not right. That's not putting her baby's needs above her own. That's wanting to see the baby purely on her terms only for her benefit, not the baby's.

If she is indeed the guilty party then I concur that she cannot and should not backtrack and have access to her child. 100 %agree.
However at this point in the program she has not even been charged. It is no secret that she is the target of the investigation and I suspect with good reason. However, at this time she does have the right to request to see her child.

 

[Calliope]

She has no right to go behind the court's back and get visitation when there is an active RO in place. It HAS to go through the court and her attorney knows that. Doesn't sound like he was giving her very good advice.

Opposing attorneys are forbidden from meeting and discussing points in a case?

Whoa nellie. I did not know that.

 

[goatman]

I wonder if the expert will actuallly meet with TH prior to testifying. I thought she couldn't get an unbiased custody eval. I think part of $350k can buy a lot of favorable testimony. Can't wait to see who the expert is and find out how much his/her testimony is costing.

Why would Houze share his loot with Bunch? Paperwork, I understand, money I don't, especially IF she ends up in court over Kyron's disappearance, Houze is going to need that money for HIS OWN expert witnesses.

Bunch, to my knowledge has not been paid a dime as of yet, Houze has been paid by a 3rd party, but to my knowledge Bunch hasn't seen a dime of that money.

 

[JBean]

Opposing attorneys are forbidden from meeting and discussing points in a case?

Whoa nellie. I did not know that.

I think what she said was TH cannot go to KH and request to see the child because an RO is in place.

 

[gwenabob]

Opposing attorneys are forbidden from meeting and discussing points in a case?

Whoa nellie. I did not know that.

Goatman said:

"Second bold: How else should she 'ask'? According to her lawyer they have already made repeated attempts to working it out outside of the court system."

I was pointing out that it is not OK for them to work out visitation outside the court system when there is a RO in place.

 

[Pensfan]

I wonder if the expert will actuallly meet with TH prior to testifying. I thought she couldn't get an unbiased custody eval. I think part of $350k can buy a lot of favorable testimony. Can't wait to see who the expert is and find out how much his/her testimony is costing.

In Western Pa, these "expert" evaluations can cost $5000. How will Terri's retired parents come up with the extra funds to pay such a large cost?

 

[goatman]

I don't get what is so good about this. So she wants to see baby K, but not submit any proof of why she should get to see her, just go on my word judge. Oh, and if there's money involved so these visits are supervised, Kaine has to pay for it.

Wow, what an entitled, narcisstic motion. If Terri is trying to look good for this, she and her lawyers are doing a terrible job of it. I hope Kaine fights this tooth and nail. What a crock of crap!

Doesn't matter that's she asking, it's how she's asking that matters. This is not fighting to see baby K to me, it's hoping like hell the judge is going to grant a miracle so TH can see her. I guess CYAing her own butt is still TH's top priority.

Goatman said:

"Second bold: How else should she 'ask'? According to her lawyer they have already made repeated attempts to working it out outside of the court system."

I was pointing out that it is not OK for them to work out visitation outside the court system when there is a RO in place.

My quote however was in response to Aedry's statement of "Doesn't matter that's she asking, it's how she's asking that matters." Meaning, she has already tried not taking him to court...so what is next, taking him to court over it. Meaning....there is no other 'way' for her to ask.

And, just an FYI in your original post you quote Calliope not me, which may also contribute to the confusion.

 

[goatman]

In Western Pa, these "expert" evaluations can cost $5000. How will Terri's retired parents come up with the extra funds to pay such a large cost?

Do you have an MSM link to her parents providing any money for her legal fees, or are you just assuming that they are the 'third party' that paid Houze and therefore are going to pay Bunch as well?

 

[Calliope]

I don't get what is so good about this.

I understand; we don't necessarily have to see eye to eye. That's what makes this site so cool and stuff. Viva le difference (or whatever --- lol it's late)

So she wants to see baby K, but not submit any proof of why she should get to see her, just go on my word judge. Oh, and if there's money involved so these visits are supervised, Kaine has to pay for it.

Of course she's going to offer proof. That is included in the motion. Bunch states that he will have an expert testify to the benefit of K on seeing her mother on a regular and often basis and if there's money involved so these visits are supervised, Kaine has to pay for it. The motion stated that if Kaine was not satisfied with the expert who will be paid for by Terri, then Kaine should necessarily pay for supervision, since the attorney is attesting to the qualifications of the expert, and Bunch is confident the court will also accept the qualifications.

Wow, what an entitled, narcisstic motion.

Except, Terri IS doing what so many (here and elsewhere) have said she SHOULD do if she cared about her child. I'm not sure I understand the 180, getting upset that she's repeatedly attempted to hammer this out with Kaine only to be thwarted over time by his refusal, necessitating her attorney taking this action.

If Terri is trying to look good for this, she and her lawyers are doing a terrible job of it. I hope Kaine fights this tooth and nail. What a crock of crap!

Again, this is what so many have said would go a long way to making them feel less 'hinky' about Terri (in so many words).

Where is the sound argument against this motion? Where is the reasoned and well-thought out determination that Terri should continue to be stripped unconstitutionally (hearsay) of her parental rights because it upsets others if she puts forth a reasonable request to obtain them once again?

Doesn't matter that's she asking, it's how she's asking that matters.

This is very confusing. How should she be asking? And who should she clear this through before making the request?

This motion was legally filed, professionally formed, well-reasoned and reasonable, and IMO will result in her getting to see her daughter again.

This is not fighting to see baby K to me, it's hoping like hell the judge is going to grant a miracle so TH can see her. I guess CYAing her own butt is still TH's top priority.

I didn't read anything outside of making sure all the i's are dotted and all the t's are crossed to make Kaine understand that due to his lack of providing evidence to support his 'hearsay' claims in the RO, and due to the agreement of the court that forcing this divorce onto Terri in hopes of getting her to violate her 5th and 6th amendment rights simply (IMO) assist the police in their investigation, regardless of the truth of the matter, that they aren't going to sit back and just take it. The law is the law, and Bunch has called them on it. Kaine himself opened up this possibility (that Terri could have supervised visitation). Why did he do that?


By Nellie, I think she may be awarded this motion as well.

JMO, of course.

 

[Pensfan]

For this large sum of money, you get:
-a couple of interviews, possibly one or two more
-perhaps some standardized personality testing
-assessment of parental measures
-the psychologist/social worker reads the case and background information
-the psychologis/social worker talks to the “client” and his/her attorneys (by telephone)
-Limited, but direct observation of the parent and the child interacting
-a typed report of the evaluation and findings

 

[Pensfan]

Do you have an MSM link to her parents providing any money for her legal fees, or are you just assuming that they are the 'third party' that paid Houze and therefore are going to pay Bunch as well?

Terri doesn't have a job or any brothers or sisters to help her, so it is logical that her parents would help her. She is living under their roof, so they are already providing her with a form of financial assistance.

 

[goatman]

For this large sum of money, you get:
-a couple of interviews, possibly one or two more
-perhaps some standardized personality testing
-assessment of parental measures
-the psychologist/social worker reads the case and background information
-the psychologis/social worker talks to the “client” and his/her attorneys (by telephone)
-Limited, but direct observation of the parent and the child interacting
-a typed report of the evaluation and findings

I ask what 'large sum of money' the only money I have heard about so far is the $350,000 paid to HOUZE, who is not her divorce attorney.

What money are you talking about?

 

[goatman]

Terri doesn't have a job or any brothers or sisters to help her, so it is logical that her parents would help her. She is living under their roof, so they are already providing her with a form of financial assistance.

Do you have a MSM to support that? If not, then it is an assumption, no matter how logical. Paying for your daughter to survive and paying your daughters court costs/lawyers fees are two very different things.

 

[grandmaj]

I do not think the judge can base this only on an expert witness saying a mother should see her child. An RO is issued because there is the accusation that a child may be in danger.

To not prove that the child is not in danger doesn't change anything. KWIM? This isn't about a child/mother seeing one another. It is about, is the child safe with that mother.

And I'm not even sure they can force the judge to hear this motion since they did not contest the RO.

Time will tell but an independent witness cannot attest to whether there is danger to said child. Now if he agreed for her to have a psychiatric evaluation that might be something that could sway the judge. moo

 

[Pensfan]

I ask what 'large sum of money' the only money I have heard about so far is the $350,000 paid to HOUZE, who is not her divorce attorney.

What money are you talking about?

Clearly I was referring to the large sum of money required to pay for the expert testimony needed for a custody hearing and the motion for her to be granted visitation rights.

 

[tragco]

TH has not been charged with any crime, not even the crime of a MFH plot against her spouse which is the given reason for the RO in the first place.

I don't think the motion should be granted until all the points regarding the RO are brought out into the open and hashed out- for the safety of the child, even in a supervised visitation setting.

The RO doesn't have "legs" IMO. A MFH plot is serious business. If the evidence was strong enough for a conviction, TH would already be in jail.

IANAL, but I am pretty sure that the burden of proof would be much less in a request for a parent to see her child. This is what her lawyers are concerned about, but the motion is not about putting her in jail. It's about seeing her child.

Still, the best interests of the child come first. She's not asking for custody, she just wants to see her child but it's clear IMO that the reasons for the RO have to be looked into for the safety of Baby K.

If TH wants to see her daughter, it's time to face that obstacle. She's got excellent representation. Bring it out in the open and let's move on. The judge's responsibility will be to make sure that nothing regarding Kyron's disappearance should be brought into the hearing since that is not listed as a reason in the RO.

 

[Calliope]

I think what she said was TH cannot go to KH and request to see the child because an RO is in place.

Ah. Ok. Thanks.

But is that illegal? Is there a rule against attorneys for opposing sides hammering out the restrictions on an RO? I ask because it would seem if there WAS such a rule against it, there wouldn't have been repeated attempts, just one. After which Kaine's attorney would have filed a contempt motion against Terri and a complaint against her attorney for violating that rule/law. And the judge would have no option but to come down on both of them.

Since Rackner is a top civil attorney there, she would surely know if Bunch was doing something wrong in making these repeated attempts.

ETA: and of course, Bunch would know so too. IMO, I see him hitting them hard, but not willing to break any rules that would sacrifice his client and his license.