2010.07.26 Grand Jury begins

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Off topic for this thread, sorry, but not sure where to put it.

They have talked about Kyron twice in about twenty minutes on CTV News up here in Canada. His name and face is getting out there.
 
What really bugs me is WHY DOESN'T LE COME OUT AND SAY THAT TERRI HORMAN IS A SUSPECT? Good grief, if it isn't her they're trying to indict, then who the heck is it? That's why at first I thought this GJ must be about the MFHP but then, why would Desiree and Tony be summoned to testify on that. This case is just so weird!
 
I know they don't have to find Kyron to press charges...but am confused as to what kind of charges they are going for...

Since the DA, Mike Schrunk says, "we have certainly tried cases before without bodies" I am going to assume he means homicide, perhaps manslaughter, but gonna guess he means either/or in the death of a missing person. IMO....
 
Good evening, I'm sorry to repeat this if it's already been asked but were Kaine, Desiree and Tony all asked to appear together today? Or were they asked individually to appear?

TIA

They won't be allowed to hear each others testimony. Only the court reporter, prosecutor and witness are in the room
 
So if the GJ is meeting to hear evidence to see if there is enough to indict Terri, does that mean shes a suspect?

I would say so!

(snipped by me)

But, that won't convict her "she's an odd duck and reacted weird" doesn't convict people. And isn't that the goal? Having all these witnesses to her state of mind seems to be grasping and easily defended against. "Your honor all the prosecution has is people talking about her state of mind...where are the witnesses that saw her take him out of the school?"

Reasonable doubt is not something we want...if she's guilty.

State of mind is not grasping. State of mind evidence is a solid part of the Caylee Anthony case.

Just want to clarify, I'm NOT a lawyer. But with a son in LE for 20 years who is now in charge of CID in this county... I have learned a lot about the law as far as police work and investigations go. And I have read tons of crime and courtroom novels, in which I learned a lot too. I am not brilliant but I do absorb.
And now I have to go... my son is in the hospital and I just came home to rest and see to the puppies. I didn't rest, so back I go.
Please... we need your prayers.

God bless you! Prayers for you and your son.

I still wonder on what grounds Terri will be indicted -- Kaine and Desiree have asserted repeatedly and recently that they believe Kyron is alive. LE have stated they have no evidence of a murder. Two teachers who thought they saw Terri leave with Kyron is not equivalent to two teachers seeing Terri leave with Kyron. LE can't even prove Kyron has been abducted, not really. There are multiple witnesses who saw Kyron at school, but none, IMHO, who saw him leave. As unlikely as it is, it's possible Kyron walked away from the school on an adventure and fell down an embankment. It's possible he was abducted and murdered by a pedophile. Lie detector results are inadmissible, and cell phone pings as evidence could be made flimsy by an expert.

With regard to the MFH plot, it's a he said, she said, IMHO. If there's no corroborating evidence, I doubt a prosecutor would go in front of a Grand Jury with one piece of evidence, that being one man's word for it. And the man in question didn't even come forward of his own accord.

Putting aside all our biases with regard to this case, and I ask this opinion of those who believe Terri is guilty even moreso than those who are on the fence -- how do you reconcile a Grand Jury indictment based on what we know and are reasonably able to deduce with regard to evidence?

I wonder about the grounds for an indictment as well. I don't think we can reconcile what we know as fact with a GJ indictment. But that's because LE has released almost nothing so they can protect their investigation. However, I can come very close to reconciling a GJ indictment and an arrest on what we can reasonably deduce based on other than official LE statements.
I reasonably deduce that TH was the last person to see Kyron. That her cell phone pings show her wandering around back roads on the morning Kyron disappeared and that she came up with the flimsy excuse of driving her infant around for hours in a rural area, to sooth an earache, conveniently on the same morning Kyron went missing, to explain away those pings. That she began a voracious sexting relationship with a new guy weeks after her son disappeared, instead of grieving his disappearance and spending every waking moment unable to eat, or breathe. That she tried to create confusion about a doctor's appointment for Kyron so that his disappearance would not be immediately noticed. That Kaine, DY and TY can all prove their whereabouts on the day Kyron went missing, to the satisfaction of LE. That there are aspects of the state of mind of TH after Kyron went missing, that would point to a consciousness of guilt on the part of TH. That is what i reasonably deduce from the media reports, the statements of the parents and the tight-lipped investigation which has now culminated in a GJ proceeding.
I really don't think LE or the prosecutor's office would waste valuable county/state monies during a recession, if all they wanted to do was go on a fishing expedition. Yes, the media can get things wrong sometimes but this investigation is clearly proceeding fast and furiously against TH and LE and the district attorney obviously think they have enough to try for an indictment. So, logic tells me they have much more than what has been officially released and much more than the feelings of the parents.
I add to that things that cannot be used to gain an indictment: That TH reportedly failed two LDTs, and has failed to publicly refute any of the allegations made against her by Kaine and DY.
More important, TH was willing to give up all rights to be a part of her daughter's life, for a period with no current end in sight, all in order to avoid any kind of statement under oath that could incriminate her criminally. Innocent mommies would never do that, IMO. That last one is what really caused alarm bells to go off for me.
I'll add that none of us can say definitively what else LE has. I am not in a position to say with certainty what LE can prove or disprove because they are keeping quiet, as they should be. But, I repeat. I doubt all the resources being expended are being expended based on a hunch or the opinions of angry exes, etc.
Finally, the fact that the parents want to believe their son is alive does not mean there is no evidence to suggest he's not. The fact that LE states there is no evidence of a murder, does not mean there is not. They are also not calling TH a suspect when clearly she is one.
My hunch, however, is that they do have evidence, at the least, of custodial interference. I'm guessing that's what they may be going for, if there is no evidence pointing to murder (like decomp evidence, blood, statements by TH that Kyron is dead, etc). That should be enough to jail her and keep the pressure on while they continue to look for Kyron. I just hope it doesn't turn out to be like the Gabriel Johnson case!
 
You can take a back pack into Multnomah County Courthouse, but everything has to go through an x-ray machine, and nothing that could be used as a weapon can get through. I have had more than one nail file confiscated.

True story--a couple years ago my husband was working on painting the exterior of the house. His ladder fell two stories with him hanging on all the way down. He broke both his arms and blew out his eye. (No, the eye did not boing out, just the supporting bone below it broke) He is all fixed up now.

Anyway, when he was at the hospital, I had to take all the junk out of his pants pockets including loose nails and a putty knife and a razorblade scraper like you use to take paint off a window. I threw it all in my purse.

A week later I had to file something at the courthouse and of course all that junk was still in my purse. I had some 'splainin to do at the x-ray machine. How many women do you know who carry putty knives, razor scrapers and nails in their purse? All confiscated. Oh well.

Glad it didn't boing out!! Omg! Heee! (I'm sorry, I know it wasn't funny he was hurt, it's just the imagery of his eye definitely NOT boinging out... oh gosh...)

On a completely different note though - the video (http://www.katu.com/news/99041199.html?tab=video)... did say they could try a case without finding Kyron. He phrased it in a cringe-making way, but that was the message.
 
What really bugs me is WHY DOESN'T LE COME OUT AND SAY THAT TERRI HORMAN IS A SUSPECT? Good grief, if it isn't her they're trying to indict, then who the heck is it? That's why at first I thought this GJ must be about the MFHP but then, why would Desiree and Tony be summoned to testify on that. This case is just so weird!

LE doesn't need to name her a suspect. Being formally named a suspect isn't a mandatory part of the criminal legal process.

It might make us feel better to hear it but LE doesn't owe the public anything. The only person they owe anything to can't be found. They only need to answer to little missing Kyron. That's first and foremost their primary concern. I doubt they give a hoot that the public wants to know if Terri is officially a suspect.
 
You can take a back pack into Multnomah County Courthouse, but everything has to go through an x-ray machine, and nothing that could be used as a weapon can get through. I have had more than one nail file confiscated.

True story--a couple years ago my husband was working on painting the exterior of the house. His ladder fell two stories with him hanging on all the way down. He broke both his arms and blew out his eye. (No, the eye did not boing out, just the supporting bone below it broke) He is all fixed up now.

Anyway, when he was at the hospital, I had to take all the junk out of his pants pockets including loose nails and a putty knife and a razorblade scraper like you use to take paint off a window. I threw it all in my purse.

A week later I had to file something at the courthouse and of course all that junk was still in my purse. I had some 'splainin to do at the x-ray machine. How many women do you know who carry putty knives, razor scrapers and nails in their purse? All confiscated. Oh well.

Well, every Monday, I had to take not only the nail file, out of my purse, but the pepper spray, the screwdriver, the pocket knife and the thingy I have attached to my key chain. :) (Little did they know that hair spray works almost as well as pepper spray! LOL)
 
Since the DA, Mike Schrunk says, "we have certainly tried cases before without bodies" I am going to assume he means homicide, perhaps manslaughter, but gonna guess he means either/or in the death of a missing person. IMO....

Well that is what I think they are doing, but why still insist they are treating the case as though he was alive? I know D&K want it that way, but LE does not help their case, if going for murder, to resist the possibility to the public that he is deceased...
 
Good evening, I'm sorry to repeat this if it's already been asked but were Kaine, Desiree and Tony all asked to appear together today? Or were they asked individually to appear?

TIA

I think witnesses are seen one at a time in the GJ process. I think the only way witnesses can appear together is if they are conjoined. :dance:
 
I'm not sure anyone has posted this but there is an interview with Dede Spicher's friends from CBS on KOIN

http://www.koinlocal6.com/mostpopul...ung-called-before/10QkYxWoqkyk5HGxkWOiMg.cspx

I transcribed some of it for everyone to read.

In an Interview with CBS news,friends of DeDe Spichers said she was attending a landscaping class at a local nursery, when Kyron disappeared and that she left her cell phone off. That's the 90 minutes of silence the authorities what to question her about. Her friends say when Kaine Horman moved out, friends say Dede dropped what she was doing and staying with Terri for 10 days at the family home..Dede would never be involved anything that would "hurt" anyone and if Dede felt that if Terri had anything to do with this we would not be standing next to Terri per friends.

Former Federal Prosecutor Lori Robinson says by bringing Dede to the Grand Jury the Prosecutors that they are sending the message that their focus is on Terri Horman and the people that are closest to her.

Former Sheriffs Captain Bruce McCain says;It is also an indication that investigators have no tangible evidence or even a crime. So they are using the Grand Jury to get that evidence.
 
ITA with you, I was being a bit sarcastic about the notion itself (Not towards you!) There is a whole justice movement, defense attornies, bleeding hearts, The innocent project, who believe that DNA is junk science, all evidence can be explained away and is circumstantial, etc. I guess the point I was making is many people draw the line that people are not guilty unless there is a smoking gun and even at that, the same people still won't believe it.

Sorry, this is possibly just a typo, but the Innocence Project uses DNA testing to exonerate the wrongfully convicted. They are not suggesting by any means that DNA is junk science.
 
If Kyron was kidnapped and taken across state lines, wouldn't that be a federal offense?

ETA:
I found this

http://www.answers.com/topic/federal-kidnapping-act

"The Lindbergh Act is a federal law (48 Stat. 781) that makes it a crime to kidnap — for ransom, reward, or otherwise— and transport a victim from one state to another or to a foreign country, except in the case of a minor abducted by his or her parent."

Would Terri be considered a parent?

Guess I'll go to the legal q & a thread . . .




.


Yes if Kryon was taken across state lines then yes it would be a federal crime. And if Terri did take him or had him taken across state lines she's in for a world of trouble.

Federal convicted felons serve ALL of their time. Although you might get a less time for a federal offense (only in some cases nothing like murder) than for a state offense inmates typically serve MORE of their time in a federal prison. Meaning they don't get as much time off for good behavior.
 
ITA with you, I was being a bit sarcastic about the notion itself (Not towards you!) There is a whole justice movement, defense attornies, bleeding hearts, The innocent project, who believe that DNA is junk science, all evidence can be explained away and is circumstantial, etc. I guess the point I was making is many people draw the line that people are not guilty unless there is a smoking gun and even at that, the same people still won't believe it.

Respectfully, SuziQ, the Innocence Project does not believe DNA evidence is junk science or that all circumstantial evidence can be explained away. They actually use DNA evidence all the time to reverse convictions. (Although I do get your point!).
 
OT, but has Putnam County even brought Haleigh's case to GJ? Seems like I should know this, but I can't remember them doing it and wondering why not, if they haven't...
 
I think witnesses are seen one at a time in the GJ process. I think the only way witnesses can appear together is if they are conjoined. :dance:

I cannot remember ever seeing two witnesses at once. However, we did see and hear testimony from two officers at once. We even heard testimony from people related to the person being indicted in a couple of the cases, as to character, etc.

I have no idea how they determine who is to testify and why. That would be interesting to know. (I guess you'd have to be inside the head of the prosecutor.)
 
Well that is what I think they are doing, but why still insist they are treating the case as though he was alive? I know D&K want it that way, but LE does not help their case, if going for murder, to resist the possibility to the public that he is deceased...

I agree, but hope, wonder, and somewhere in the small not cynical part of me still left, if he is still alive somewhere. I was looking at your current kitty, who looks soooo peaceful and happy, wishing and thinking that Kyron should have, and deserves to have, the same peace. :(
 
But we are pretty sure they do not have Kyron or his body. So whatever they are doing has to be based on presumption, just due to that fact. They can't know what happened.

BBM Yes, unless they have evidence that we don't know about.

An example is happen right now in the Stylar Newton case, just watching Nancy Grace about the 2 year old missing since July 24th and LE has made this a criminal investigation and are presuming he is dead. They also have had lie detector test done, but did not give the results.

Also:

Based on evidence at the scene, Sheriff's investigators believe he was taken from the campsite, but they are uncertain whether he was dead or alive when taken, officials said.
However, they made clear that they believe the boy is now dead because they couldn't find any trace of him near the campsite, and if he wandered away, statistics suggest someone that age has a slim chance of surviving past the first 96 hours.

Just wondering/thinking will they possible declare murder charges??? IDK
 
I'm not sure why people automatically assume that DY, TY, and KH are only being called to testify to suspicion or gut instinct.

I think it is more likely that their purpose there is to give testimony about things related to custody... like who had him during the summers, what they did, where they went... things of that nature. I'm also betting that KH recounted the last morning he saw Kyron. I think they were probably giving the backdrop of his "blended family" and the way it functioned.

The prosecutor asks the questions. I'm sure he wanted the jurors to have a basic understanding of the family dynamics... particularly if one member of the blended family is being investigated.

I understand that many people here wish to not be part of the "witch hunt." I don't want to be part of that either. Desiree doesn't know what happened to her son, but she has suspicions... I'm not sure how that correlated to the police only having the same "gut feeling." We don't know what is going on, of course, because in Oregon the public information laws aren't like they are in Florida. But to assume that the government is trying to railroad Terri Horman 'because they got nothin' is the same presumptuous and damaging leap as trying to tie Terri to the stake. The police aren't in the business of just wasting public money, time, and resources... at least not with this deficit. Instead of analyzing and dissecting information, seems people just end up picking at each other over what sources are trustworthy.

Its as if this has already become the JonBenet forums, any information that doesn't fit a particular side will be attacked, scrutinized and even discredited, with no real purpose of justice, other than continuing to validate a particular side of the fence.

So they were called before the grand jury. They each probably have unique unbiased information about Kyron's daily life, and who had access to him. If they are asked about their subjective opinions, I'm sure they will offer them up, but to assume that all they can offer is eye rolling disgust of the evil step mother... is probably not true. Forgive me :(

Wow. Thank you for this post. Well said.
 

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