2010.07.26 Grand Jury begins

[socalgal2]

Just want to clarify, I'm NOT a lawyer. But with a son in LE for 20 years who is now in charge of CID in this county... I have learned a lot about the law as far as police work and investigations go. And I have read tons of crime and courtroom novels, in which I learned a lot too. I am not brilliant but I do absorb.
And now I have to go... my son is in the hospital and I just came home to rest and see to the puppies. I didn't rest, so back I go.
Please... we need your prayers.

Many prayers to your Son and your family.raying:raying:raying:

 

[Billylee]

From the link cluciano provided:

Can a grand jury target offer evidence of his or her own?

For the most part, the subject of a grand jury investigation has no right to testify unless subpoenaed, nor any right to compel the grand jury to hear certain witnesses or evidence. Often, however, if a target requests an opportunity to testify, he or she will be permitted by the prosecutor to do so but without a grant of immunity.

The prosecutor may refuse to present evidence submitted by a target. In federal grand juries, exculpatory evidence need not be presented, although in many states exculpatory evidence must be submitted for the grand jury's consideration. Prosecutors have the right in federal grand juries to introduce hearsay and to otherwise utilize evidence that would not be admissible in a regular trial.



What protection does a target have against witnesses lying to the grand jury, or against the use of unconstitutionally obtained evidence?

None. The target's only redress is to challenge the evidence at trial. One of the reasons a witness may assert the Fifth Amendment is that he or she does not know if the prosecutor has presented witnesses who have lied. The witness cannot risk testifying contrary to those witnesses, for fear of being charged with perjury if the prosecutor does not believe his or her testimony



I just don't see where it would be to either side's advantage for her to appear. I'd also like to know if a target DOES appear and testify, would their testimony be allowed in trial or would it provide a basis for appeal in some way (because the attorney isn't allowed to be in the courtroom, present evidence or cross-examine)?

All good questions for the legal dept. We saw and heard many cases when I was on the GJ and there was only this one where the "target" testified. And again, we were reminded, innocence or guilt does not matter here, ONLY whether or not an indictment should be issued. Perhaps it was allowed because the prosecution itself didn't think it had much of a case, and before going to the cost of trial, decided to let the person testify. I don't know. Interesting stuff.

 

[Oriah]

Arghh!! They allow backpacks into some of the courtrooms I go to and it is a royal pain if such a person gets in line at the scanner ahead of me. Most courtrooms have special lines for attorneys and staff but sometimes if it's a short one they allow the public to go through as well and the backpack people drive me nuts because they usually have a ton of other stuff in pockets, on their wrists, around their waist and for some reason they wait until they are right at the scanner to divest themselves of all their junk, while a huge line begins to form behind them. Irritating!!!

Lol. Seriously...it seems like there should be some sort of law against this. You either go through the wave-through-line...or somehow you get stuck in the (I have-a-ton-of-possible-evidence-and-or-weapons-line-but-omg-i-didn't-know-you-couldn't-bring-a-toothpick-line? What? That O2 concentrator looks like an IED on the scan line??)
Argh.
Seriously. I have yet to enter a courthouse and go through security where no one thinks twice about a backpack. But then again...what do I know!!

 

[cluciano63]

I guess what I am not understand is...does the prosecutor want the GJ to decide what charges can be filed?

This is so confusing with the parents consistently stating that Kyron is "stashed" somehere, as though this is just an overblown domestic dispute of some kind, and LE saying that they are considering Kyron to be alive. (I hate that word "stashed"-it is a poor choice, in my opinion-makes me think of a nasty custody battle).

If no one will admit Kyron is likely to be deceased, what is the GJ supposed to charge her with? And won't they want to know who saw her leave with Kyron? Or is the fact that she left, and Kyron is not there, supposed to be conclusive of that? I just can't imagine what the GJ is supposed to conclude...

 

[Chablis]

How is it any different than going through the line with a purse? I have went into courthouses many times with purses, and its examined and I go through a detector, and when my stuff is clear I get it back. Are people really saying you cant bring purses or backpacks into a courthouse?

 

[Billylee]

I guess what I am not understand is...does the prosecutor want the GJ to decide what charges can be filed?

This is so confusing with the parents consistently stating that Kyron is "stashed" somehere, as though this is just an overblown domestic dispute of some kind, and LE saying that they are considering Kyron to be alive. (I hate that word "stashed"-it is a poor choice, in my opinion-makes me think of a nasty custody battle).

If no one will admit Kyron is likely to be deceased, what is the GJ supposed to charge her with? And won't they want to know who saw her leave with Kyron? Or is the fact that she left, and Kyron is not there, supposed to be conclusive of that? I just can't imagine what the GJ is supposed to conclude...

No, the GJ is convened to tell the prosecutor whether or not to go through with the charges they've listed. (And there can be multiple, with some struck down by the GJ or even added. )
The prosecutor already has given the GJ the list of charges. Unfortunately, we don't know what they are.

 

[Oriah]

How is it any different than going through the line with a purse? I have went into courthouses many times with purses, and its examined and I go through a detector, and when my stuff is clear I get it back. Are people really saying you cant bring purses or backpacks into a courthouse?

Actually I think it depends on the size. Purses are typically smaller than a backpack so they can carry less. But all 'carrying devices' are usually examined these days, MOO.

 

[Calliope]

In all honesty IF Kyron had simply wondered out of school and fallen down an embankment there would be no reason for Terri not to cooperate with the police to find Kyron. Actually if this had happened you would expect Terri to appear to be a lot more upset than she appears to be. Likewise if he just fell down an embankment there would be no need for Dede to get immunity because she would know NOTHING...quite simply what we do know leaves me no doubts at all that Terri knows what happened to Kyron/

People do stupid things for stupid reasons all the time... and Terri hasn't been shown to have the best of judgement, IMO.

Last week I posted a link to the the Michelle Dorr case. Her father was a suspect in her disappearance (and probable murder) for fourteen years. He acted beyond weird, gave a confession then recanted; his ex-wife claimed he'd confessed to her that he'd murdered and buried his daughter, and made other accusations that painted him as an all-around terrible person.

But fourteen years later, the real killer was found and charged. He'd taken, assaulted, murdered, cannibalized, and buried this little girl ... after luring her in just a few doors down from her father's home.

The police had brought him in for questioning shortly after the girl's disappearance, and HIS behavior led them to be suspicious he might be the perp.

Only problem was... the father had lied to police about the last time he'd seen his daughter, saying it was much later than it had been. He lied because he was afraid he'd be considered negligent, lose his visitation, etc., but it provided the actual murderer with an air-tight alibi. The timeline provided by the father didn't allow for Clark to have killed and disposed of her body.

So people do stupid things and lie to the police for stupid reasons.

 

[nurseratchett]

Well, I guess I'll be thinking of the grand jurors and the very heavy burden they are pondering, and including them in my prayers for clarity of thought.

 

[cluciano63]

I remember that case and the absolute weirdo who was eventually convicted...yikes.

People lie all the time, to LE, even when they have no good reason. I lied to an officer when I was pulled over once, told him I had to get right home due to a bowel issue-it was more embarrassing to me to say that , than to admit to speeding, and it wasn't even true, yet still, I lied for no reason. And I am not someone who lies as a rule, but the sight of the red flashing lights and the officer walking up to my car made my heart pound and I panicked. I can't even imagine what I might come out with up if I was being questioned about a missing child and had been doing something stupid or embarrassing at the time I needed an alibi. (Granted, I would have told the truth long before now, but still...people lie.)

 

[Chablis]

Actually I think it depends on the size. Purses are typically smaller than a backpack so they can carry less. But all 'carrying devices' are usually examined these days, MOO.

Honestly, my bags are 15 inches across, probably bigger than a back pack, and what is the importance of this back pack? Do people think Kaine wouldn't carry stuff into the courthouse?

 

[cluciano63]

Honestly, my bags are 15 inches across, probably bigger than a back pack, and what is the importance of this back pack? Do people think Kaine wouldn't carry stuff into the courthouse?

Desiree probably had a purse too
Maybe we should start a thread on it...

 

[goatman]

I don't think you hit on the point he was making.

Tony can surely testify as the step-father of the missing child. He should not be testifying as an "expert" or professional witness in his capacity as a police detective. Primarily because (as he and Desiree have stated) he is not part of or assisting in the investigation, nor receiving inside information from LE. But also because he is the step-father for the same reasons any professional would refuse to be involved to that degree.

O/T

I'm a girl. Woman. Lady...take your pick.:woohoo:

Maybe I should update my profile.:waitasec:

 

[Oriah]

I remember that case and the absolute weirdo who was eventually convicted...yikes.

People lie all the time, to LE, even when they have no good reason. I lied to an officer when I was pulled over once, told him I had to get right home due to a bowel issue-it was more embarrassing to me to say that , than to admit to speeding, and it wasn't even true, yet still, I lied for no reason. And I am not someone who lies as a rule, but the sight of the red flashing lights and the officer walking up to my car made my heart pound and I panicked. I can't even imagine what I might come out with up if I was being questioned about a missing child and had been doing something stupid or embarrassing at the time I needed an alibi. (Granted, I would have told the truth long before now, but still...people lie.)

ITA.
People lie most often for no good reason whatsoever, really... and then find themselves in a very unpleasant cycle of lies. Even under incredibly stressful and vitally important conditions, they still lie. Not saying that is the case here...but I can see it.

 

[Oriah]

Desiree probably had a purse too
Maybe we should start a thread on it...

Lol.
I'd rather start a thread titled:
I tried to carry a "********" into the courthouse today.
Has anyone experienced the same body cavity search in response???

 

[Calliope]

I remember that case and the absolute weirdo who was eventually convicted...yikes.

People lie all the time, to LE, even when they have no good reason. I lied to an officer when I was pulled over once, told him I had to get right home due to a bowel issue-it was more embarrassing to me to say that , than to admit to speeding, and it wasn't even true, yet still, I lied for no reason. And I am not someone who lies as a rule, but the sight of the red flashing lights and the officer walking up to my car made my heart pound and I panicked. I can't even imagine what I might come out with up if I was being questioned about a missing child and had been doing something stupid or embarrassing at the time I needed an alibi. (Granted, I would have told the truth long before now, but still...people lie.)

Or immoral or even illegal --- but not involved with Kyron's disappearance. For all we know, she was meeting up with someone for yet another plot to murder Kaine. If that was me, and I knew I didn't take Kyron and there was no way they could prove I did, I don't think I'd admit to something like that...

 

[Chablis]

Desiree probably had a purse too
Maybe we should start a thread on it...

Security equipment in use in the Courthouse includes magnetometers (walk-through metal detectors), x-ray scanners, and hand held metal detectors. If you have a pacemaker, tell the security officer about it before you enter the metal detector. The sheriff’s staff do physical pat-downs on persons with pace makers. The security screening process creates long lines of people waiting to enter the courthouse during peak hours. The closer to 8 AM you arrive for jury service, the longer the line will be to clear security.
http://www.oregon.gov/Multnomah/General_Info/Jury_Service/Courthouse_Security.page

 

[seeking truth]

I guess what I am not understand is...does the prosecutor want the GJ to decide what charges can be filed?

This is so confusing with the parents consistently stating that Kyron is "stashed" somehere, as though this is just an overblown domestic dispute of some kind, and LE saying that they are considering Kyron to be alive. (I hate that word "stashed"-it is a poor choice, in my opinion-makes me think of a nasty custody battle).

If no one will admit Kyron is likely to be deceased, what is the GJ supposed to charge her with? And won't they want to know who saw her leave with Kyron? Or is the fact that she left, and Kyron is not there, supposed to be conclusive of that? I just can't imagine what the GJ is supposed to conclude...

I think the Grand Jury procedure, and those who conduct it and partcipate in it, know what they are doing.

This is very promising news that Desiree, Kaine, and Tony have been called. We don't what is being presented but I believe that MUCH is being revealed. I think the participants, including the jurors, are adult enough to work with the idea that these parents are hoping that Kyron is alive. I'm sure that thinking, feeling adults can sift through everything and come to the conclusion that so many of us have; and they will be privy to so much more than we, the average citizens, are. I believe that the Grand Jury will agree with the Prosecution and an indictment will be issued against Terri Horman; the woman who (in all probability) is responsible for the crime against Kyron.

This is my OPINION.

Justice will come. I truly believe that.

 

[Calliope]

O/T

I'm a girl. Woman. Lady...take your pick.:woohoo:

Maybe I should update my profile.:waitasec:

LOL

I'm sorry. :innocent:

 

[cluciano63]

Do you (all, collectively) think that LE has advised Tony and Desiree and Kaine that they are asking for a murder indictment, if they are?

At some point, soon, LE will have to convince them that he is not alive, if that is the route they plan to take. They have to have the parents on board; they can't have them on the stand insisting he is "stashed" someplace.