2010.07.26 - Kyron Horman case featured on Dateline

[human]

I don't think this has become the Kaine is horrible thread, but everyone is saying that whatever needs to be done to bring Kyron home should be done. What if a key to this mystery lies in Kaine's behavior? Shouldn't his life and choices be taken into consideration? There are facts about Kaine that are a little disconcerting, IMHO, specifically with regard to the end of his relationship with Desiree, the RO, and his ignorance about his current life -- he was unaware of problems in his marriage, unaware if Terri still suffered from PPD, unaware if she was still taking medication, and the list goes on, from his own mouth.

What I know is that LE, DY, TY, KH and the media have been focused on Terri Horman for two months and yet Kyron has not been brought home. She may be guilty as sin, but a clue to why or how she did this may lie with her husband, the father of the child who is missing. It's not unreasonable to take a second look at him. Everyone is saying how Terri should lay herself bare, all the skeletons out of her closet, hold nothing back, and the forum operates on that assumption with regard to her -- discussing every nook and cranny of her life, diagnosing her, hypothesizing whether or not she loved the boy she'd mothered from infancy, and yet the life of the biological father should not be examined for clues? That's unfathomable to me.

So Kaine is at fault because his wife wanted a MFH?

So victims of crimes are at fault? Interesting concept.

 

[Emma Peel]

Exactly. Her expectation that he would be coming to her house on the evening of June 4 did NOT prompt her to make his bed. Then she got the phone call that he was missing and now states she cannot make it. My question still stands. Why wasn't it made at any time in the two weeks since he'd last been there, or his clothes put away in the two weeks since he'd been there, or the toys straightened up and put away in the two weeks since he'd been there?

JMHO

Bed:
Because it didn't need to be made until after work Friday. Because she puts on fresh sheets last thing the day he arrives. Or because it is their ritual to do it together, and some day he'll do it himself.

Toys:
Because when Kyron leaves mid-play, she lets his toys stay the way they were until he returns so his play-learning, activities, imagination, projects at Desiree's can have the sort of continuity they'd have if he was there day to day. Like people who leave an unfinished puzzle or a chess game out until the next weekend.

Housekeeping:
For now housekeeping logic is displaced by hope.
Kyron hasn't returned from his last visit. And until he comes back, that's the way it's going to stay.


side note: There came an age where I would not pick up my kids toys because I knew it would stress them. They were in the middle of something. They weren't finished... they'd been called away mid-play... Of course, I would ask or demand at some point that THEY pick up their toys or I'd help them do it - getting "permission" to disturb their projects ... then it was less stressful. Kids have so little control over things. Play is one place where they can exercise control. Change is stressful for children ... transistion anxiety ... blah blah...

Anyway Desiree's management of the things in her home that are Kyron's makes sense to me.

:cow:

 

[human]

I do think it's a natural reaction to hold the woman more responsible. Not saying it's right or justified, but maybe woman are expected to have more empathy and higher moral standards, in general. Personally, I think they are both at fault, but KH more so since he is the one who was married to DY. How it reflects on TH depends on what she was told and what she knew, imo. However, given what I believe I know about TH at this point, it wouldn't surprise me if she knew exactly what she was doing, and possibly set about it with deliberation. jmoo

one of her ex's said that TH cheated on him as well.

 

[Kimster]

Slow down everyone.

There isn't one poster on this thread that hasn't made a poor choice in their lives. We don't need to throw rocks at any of the players just because their lives have been exposed. It is okay to say they made a poor choice and have others debate on whether they agree or not and why. Just keep it like a debate and not a heated discussion.

:grouphug:

 

[human]

re: Desiree rushing to Portland

In the situations in which a similar thing happened, there were steps taken, though. No one was immediately unhinged to the point of inaction. Let's hypothesize for a moment that Terri is innocent. Kyron lived with Terri, she was his primary caretaker, and in her mind, in that moment, she was handling it. I'm not saying she wasn't worried, or shouldn't have been worried under the circumstances, but even Kaine believed that initially Kyron was confused and waiting at school. If Terri is innocent, then she knew he'd been at the school that day, and what the school was saying didn't make sense to her, so she may not have been as immediately as alarmed as you would think. She may have believed the school was confused and assumed Kyron was inside the school somewhere. For that reason, not realizing the true gravity of the situation, I can understand how Terri might be flustered by Desiree rushing to the school. In that moment, if Terri is innocent and she knew for a fact Kyron had been at school despite a teacher marking him absent, she may have been confused and worried but not thinking he had been abducted and possibly murdered.

Honestly, if she'd been hysterical and urging Desiree to come right away because something was obviously terribly, horribly wrong, then there would be a lot of discussion about why she immediately jumped to that conclusion.

The parents seemingly agreed that Kyron had trouble following directions. It is Kaine who assumed, based on his knowledge of Kyron and the situation, that Kyron's absence from the school bus could have been attributable to Kyron becoming confused about the day. Had something similar happened before? Or was Kyron known to confuse directions? These are questions worth asking, IMHO. In the process of asking these types of questions, the truth may out.

A 7 year old is missing ALL day and anyone would flip out. ANYONE.

Even a teenager gone all day would make a person flip out.

 

[cypress]

So Kaine is at fault because his wife wanted a MFH?

So victims of crimes are at fault? Interesting concept.

This is a complete and unfair misrepresentation of what I posted.

Kaine lived in a house with Terri and Kyron, and by virtue of his proximity to the person many, if not most, believe is responsible for Kyron's disappearance, his life deserves to be examined. I don't believe he's responsible for Kyron's disappearance; however, assuming Terri is involved, there may be aspects of his life that provide clues about why or even how, and if examining those aspects of his life brings Kyron home, then so be it. So many posters have criticized Terri for not laying her life bare, saying they would let LE come in and poke around in whatever fashion they needed if it meant finding Kyron, and yet whenever anyone wants to poke around for clues in Kaine's life, the same rules don't seem to apply. He must be "protected." Protected from what? If he's got nothing to hide, then respectfully examining his life and choices should be fair game, right?

 

[cypress]

A 7 year old is missing ALL day and anyone would flip out. ANYONE.

Even a teenager gone all day would make a person flip out.

If Terri is innocent, and if Terri knew she took Kyron to school that day and left him there, then him being marked absent wouldn't make sense to her. She would assume the school was confused because she would've known that he had, in fact, been at school that day. And, in fact, he had been at school that day.

Desiree and Kaine admitted Kyron had trouble following directions. When Kyron was not on the school bus, the first thought by Kaine was not that Kyron had been harmed, but that Kyron had become confused about where he was going to be picked up. Had this or something similar happened before to cause Kaine to assume Kyron was confused?

All I'm saying is that if Terri is innocent and if Kyron struggled with following directions, and there was a history of him becoming confused, then because Terri knew Kyron had been at school that day, she might not have been as worried then as we know she should have been now. We have the benefit of looking back on that day two months later, and knowing, for certain, that something terrible happened. At the time, though, while worried, there could've been other mitigating factors that didn't cause her or Kaine to assume the worst.

 

[human]

So back to that bed for a moment: I could see if Kyron had just left and was coming back to the bed in the evening and leaving the bed unmade. But he'd been gone for two weeks. And now his bed remains unmade another near 9 weeks, toys on the floor (out of the way, I did notice) and one singular picture on the wall in a hallway with no other pictures to show Kyron lived there.

It all seemed so staged.

Jacob Wetterling, a child who has been missing for 20 years. The parents have not moved or changed their phone number for when he comes back.

They would buy Christmas presents for him for years. Their house was full with letters from people for Jacob.

Kyron staged? I so don't think so.

 

[TxLady2]

Some years back when we had custody of my stepson, it was indeed WE on the court documents giving legal and physical custody to DH and ME. I was able to sign for medical care, etc. Not in Oregon though, don't know about there.

It was the same with my stepdaughter when my husband had full custody of her. I had rights to medical and other information that her mother didn't have.

But that might be the difference... Kaine and Desiree had shared custody. However with everyday matters like the school, doctor appts., even consent for minor medical treatments, I think she would have had the right to sign papers of consent.

As for selling rights to pictures.... I'm not a lawyer so I have no idea. But if that is the case... then I would think Kaine would be entitled to half the proceeds, since it is his son.

 

[tlcya]

I think the bed/room/toys issues is a non-issue. However a mother chooses to cope with her child disappearing from the face of the earth be she fulltime mom or parttime mom is none of my concern. Period.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

I understand we're about discussing our opinions here, but a lot of this discussion is becoming very judgemental. As Kimster said above, we've all most likely made some poor decisions but it wouldn't mean we deserve to have our child missing.

Emma Peel said it very well and I'll add on:

I'll admit, I was taken aback momentarily when I saw Kyrons unmade bed until I realized I don't always expect my children to make their bed, just as I don't make mine but once or twice a week. I'm not lazy and my house is clean, it's just one of those things I feel "less important".

As far as the toys, my youngest is 5 and VERY anal about his cars and trucks. He KNOWS if one is missing or has been moved. If he leaves mid-play, as long as the stuff is off to the side, I'll leave it. Just like I do if my dtr leaves an art project out or my son leaves mid science experiment -- I don't want to mess anything up!

Kaine having skeletons in his closet? Probably. Most of us do. MOO, but I really don't think anything horrible happened between Kaine and Desiree. Maybe he cheated, maybe he didn't, but people make mistakes. I doubt he has anything going on that could be connected to Kyrons disappearance or I guarantee TH and/or Desiree would be talking. As far as Kaine not noticing a change in TH - when my youngest was a few months old, I found out his father had gotten hooked on meth. He was using on a regular basis and at our home and I never knew. When I found out, I gave him a choice (he took off and haven't seen him since). But if floored me to know this had been going on for quite some time and I had no idea. I think when it's something you don't understand or expect, you just don't notice it.

Anyway, I'm glad we're all here sleuthing together and praying for Kyrons safe return!

 

[tlcya]

yellow. Thank you button wasn't adequate. Just as I was loath to see folks seeming to go below the belt with Terri, by the same token, I wince when I see (what I perceive to be) blows below the belt at Kaine or Desiree.

What you and Emma have said.

 

[human]

Exactly. Her expectation that he would be coming to her house on the evening of June 4 did NOT prompt her to make his bed. Then she got the phone call that he was missing and now states she cannot make it. My question still stands. Why wasn't it made at any time in the two weeks since he'd last been there, or his clothes put away in the two weeks since he'd been there, or the toys straightened up and put away in the two weeks since he'd been there?

My grandchildren live right by me. If they stay overnight, I do not change their sheets after one stay. Call me lazy, but what's the point.

If they leave a mess, I leave it until they are at my house again and I make them clean it up then.

Sometimes I ask them if they cleaned up and they say, "Yes."

Because of circumstances, I don't go check. Then, I see that their definition of cleaning up and mine are different.

 

[TxLady2]

I don't believe the affair/not affair can be attributed to a simple difference of opinion. On the one hand, you have Desiree saying an affair took place, on the other hand, you have Kaine saying his relationship with Desiree was over, they had an understanding of sorts, hence no affair.

Either they were broken up and had a clear understanding, agreeing to live together but not be together, understanding fully that the relationship was over, or Kaine cheated on Desiree when she was eight months pregnant with Kyron and that is why she spent two months crying. This isn't akin to saying beige is brown, this is more akin to saying black is white. This isn't a shade of truth, it's a completely different presentation of what took place.

Considering how vocal Desiree has been about her distrust of Terri, and considering the lack of vocal, public corroboration by LE, it's important to know how the relationship between these women affects Desiree's opinion of Terri and her actions.

It's a bit ick to sleep with a man whose current wife is eight months pregnant, but if Terri entered into a relationship with Kaine believing his relationship with Desiree was over, something he maintains to this day, then is she equally to blame or was she duped as well?

According to Kaine, he and Desiree were broken up. Which means in Terri's mind, she was not having an affair, but if Desiree believed Kaine was having an affair, then this would explain Desiree's statement about Terri not even being able to tell the truth about how they [Kaine and Terri] met. That's a rough paraphrase. But I have a feeling Terri's history with Kaine has a lot to do with Desiree's current feelings toward Terri, and Kaine's version of events versus Desiree's version of events should be important because Desiree is bringing up all kinds of past behavior with regard to the current investigation.

BBM: Interesting, isn't it, the difference in what men and women think regarding affairs.
If they were still married, and living together as man and wife, technically it is an affair, IMO.
Interesting also, that Kaine considers the relationship between Terri and his friend Mike an affair... but it did not begin, until he had moved out of their home, according to him. Yet he says his and Desiree's marriage was "over" while she was pregnant and they were still living together.
Double standards. JMHO.

 

[tlcya]

Quite frankly, I could care less about whether KH and DY were "officially" over before or after TH and KH's relationship started, it is salacious and ooogy to me that it is even a topic.

Many many people screw up their marriages. you have only to look at the divorce rates in this country. I think some of this family history can help to explain some of the family dynamic, but it does not offer enough probative info to justify my participation in the conversation about this topic. That's just me, others, I'm sure feel diferently

 

[Adrienne37]

As I stated last night regarding Kaine's affair with Terri, it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on Kyron's disappearance. As for Desiree not making Kyron's bed, putting his clothes or toys away, I can't believe that people are actually making critical remarks regarding this. I don't think it is fair for any us to judge either KH or DY until we have walked in their shoes. God forbid that any of us on this board ever have one of our children go missing and then sit back and read comments that people have made because we didn't handle the situation like they thought we were supposed to, it's ludicrous. As I stated last night, I could care less whether or not Kaine slept around on Desiree, whether Desiree slept around on Kaine, whether Kaine slept around on Terri, etc., etc., etc., as first of all, it isn't any of our concern and second of all, all the talk about it is not doing a thing to bring Kyron home. Also like I said last night, it appears that Kaine and Desiree have put their differences aside for the love of their son. JMO.

 

[cypress]

Quite frankly, I could care less about whether KH and DY were "officially" over before or after TH and KH's relationship started, it is salacious and ooogy to me that it is even a topic.

Many many people screw up their marriages. you have only to look at the divorce rates in this country. I think some of this family history can help to explain some of the family dynamic, but it does not offer enough probative info to justify my participation in the conversation about this topic. That's just me, others, I'm sure feel diferently

Normally, I would agree, but Desiree is accusing Terri of lying about her early relationship with Kaine, and using that lie as further proof of Terri's history of lying. If Kaine told Terri the relationship between him and Desiree was over, she would not think they'd had an affair. This belief would would manifest itself in how Terri described her relationship with Kaine to others. To Desiree it would seem like Terri was constantly lying about it, since Desiree is accusing Kaine of an affair, but in reality Terri could be telling the truth. This is a lie Kaine is helping and/or has helped facilitate. From the start, this would've biased Desiree against Terri. How many other of Terri's lies might be explained in a similar manner?

We're talking about a woman publicly accusing another woman of abducting her son. This is not a minor accusation. I want to know if Terri does, indeed, have a history of lying. I do absolutely believe that's important in this case. I also want to know if Desiree just doesn't like Terri, if she's held a grudge against her since she came into Kaine's life. I absolutely believe that has a bearing on this case and Desiree's very public, very vocal proclamations and accusations against Terri.

 

[Day Dreamer]

I just came across this. It is so beautiful that I had to share.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-sp8kvGOz4[/ame]

 

[tlcya]

Normally, I would agree, but Desiree is accusing Terri of lying about her early relationship with Kaine, and using that lie as further proof of Terri's history of lying. If Kaine told Terri the relationship between him and Desiree was over, she would not think they'd had an affair. This belief would would manifest itself in how Terri described her relationship with Kaine to others. To Desiree it would seem like Terri was constantly lying about it, since Desiree is accusing Kaine of an affair, but in reality Terri could be telling the truth. This is a lie Kaine is helping and/or has helped facilitate. From the start, this would've biased Desiree against Terri. How many other of Terri's lies might be explained in a similar manner?

We're talking about a woman publicly accusing another woman of abducting her son. This is not a minor accusation. I want to know if Terri does, indeed, have a history of lying. I do absolutely believe that's important in this case. I also want to know if Desiree just doesn't like Terri, if she's held a grudge against her since she came into Kaine's life. I absolutely believe that has a bearing on this case and Desiree's very public, very vocal proclamations and accusations against Terri.

I must have missed the times Desiree came out publicly and accused Terri of being a liar (as regards to Terri breaking up her marriage). I found Desiree's statements on Dateline last night very evenhanded. If as you believe she has harboured ill will towards Terri from all they way back to the divorce of DY and KH, she certainly restrained it better than I coud ever have hoped to.

Agreeing to disagree with you as neither of us is coming around to the other's viewpoint.

 

[cypress]

I must have missed the times Desiree came out publicly and accused Terri of being a liar (as regards to Terri breaking up her marriage). I found Desiree's statements on Dateline last night very evenhanded. If as you believe she has harboured ill will towards Terri from all they way back to the divorce of DY and KH, she certainly restrained it better than I coud ever have hoped to.

Agreeing to disagree with you as neither of us is coming around to the other's viewpoint.

I'll agree to disagree as well, but I will give you a link to where Desiree accused Terri of lying about Kaine. BBM:

Young says Terri Horman was a frequent liar about matters large and small.

“She can’t even tell the truth about her divorce or, you know, how she met Kaine, any of that,” Young says. “Silly little things. Stories about Kyron getting stung by a bee she can’t even tell the truth about.”

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/tag/desiree-young/