2011.03.24 - Air Sample Expert Testimony

[logicalgirl]

My reason for reading this thread! Hope someone posts the answer soon.

:tyou: in advance

It was about the chloroform in the carpet analysis - look in the afternoon hearing thread starting at post #788 - #800 and beyond - maybe that will help you find it in the actual hearing.

 

[strach304]

Correct!! IIRC ICA did look up briefly when Vass mentioned the death smell but tried to be discrete and quickly looked back down. The bug eyed shot was over the crematorium.

Vass had me sold with his interaction with JA but all JB did was further convince me that Vass has something solid.

JB raising the issue of financial gain and the Labrador device only added legitimacy at a Frye hearing. Doh!!!! no-one is going to buy the device unless it was a legimate tool with reliable, usable results and ... this was a Frye hearing!!! A device suggests that the process is baked and going into 'production' not something that is still being developed and is in early stages.

I lost count of how many times JB enabled Vass to add more credibility to his research and thus shot himself in the foot. JB did a great job of helping the SA convince HHJBP and little to question the science and its validity.

You make some great points, I hadn't looked at it that way. Seemed to me most of the time JB didn't understand what Dr. Vass was trying to explain to him. If LKB hadn't quit she would've been the one doing the questioning of this particular witness imo. I could tell from reading several depos that JA not only understands the science involved but keeps up with the latest. JB just doesn't know any of this stuff and is ill prepared to do the questioning. There were times when I understood what Dr. Vass was explaining but JB didn't seem to that made me really embarrassed for him.

 

[strach304]

My reason for reading this thread! Hope someone posts the answer soon.

:tyou: in advance

He said, "yeah, pretty cool huh?" Watch part 1 and part 2 from the media link. It's when JB is asking him about getting the same results from multiple cadavers under entirely different conditions so that's when he says it. I think they are talking about fluoride first.

 

[strach304]

Last night I searched for Vass on FB. What I got is just an info page which links a wiki page..it obviously is NOT Vass's FB page. Anyone should be able to tell that. As if Vass put the page on there himself and linked a Wiki page he wrote for himself. Duh!! He looked surprised that there was this stuff about him!!

That was ridiculous and just showed JB to be more of a dunce than previously thought. There is a label or warning or whatever on wiki pedia advising you that anyone can put info on there. What does JB do? Try and discredit the Dr. because he can't discredit his findings. At one point Judge Perry even asked Baez what was the purpose of doing a background on Dr. Vass. This is what he is spending investigation fees on?

 

[strawberry]

That was ridiculous and just showed JB to be more of a dunce than previously thought. There is a label or warning or whatever on wiki pedia advising you that anyone can put info on there. What does JB do? Try and discredit the Dr. because he can't discredit his findings. At one point Judge Perry even asked Baez what was the purpose of doing a background on Dr. Vass. This is what he is spending investigation fees on?

Hmmmmm, what can I add to his Wiki page about him being an excellent witness and stood up heroically to idiotic cross examination?? :great:

 

[strawberry]

He said, "yeah, pretty cool huh?" Watch part 1 and part 2 from the media link. It's when JB is asking him about getting the same results from multiple cadavers under entirely different conditions so that's when he says it. I think they are talking about fluoride first.

Oh, is that when JB said "chlorinated, I mean flu0rinated"? Oh those pesky halogens all sound alike!!

 

[watergirl]

He said, "yeah, pretty cool huh?" Watch part 1 and part 2 from the media link. It's when JB is asking him about getting the same results from multiple cadavers under entirely different conditions so that's when he says it. I think they are talking about fluoride first.

I'm such a science dork, I though it was pretty cool as well!
I :heart: science.

JB, on the other hand, obviously flunked science.
Repeatedly. :tsktsk:

 

[strach304]

I will be shocked if the judge does not let this in. IMO, this is valid scientific....stuff (ok that's my extent of science words). Just because it hasn't been used before, there is a first time for everything to become standard.

ETA: I just read RH's blog entry re Dr. Vass....and I see where this could actually be an uphill battle.
http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

I don't think JP is letting it in either. Not this case. Death is different.

 

[katydid23]

IF the air samples are ruled out, then what will be left in for the jury to hear about the trunk?

1. The smell of decomp. right?
2. The stain. Correct?
3. The evidence of grave waxc on the paper towels...is that still in?
4. The hair of Caylee with the deathband? Still in?

 

[krisskross]

IF the air samples are ruled out, then what will be left in for the jury to hear about the trunk?

1. The smell of decomp. right?
2. The stain. Correct?
3. The evidence of grave waxc on the paper towels...is that still in?
4. The hair of Caylee with the deathband? Still in?

And Dr Neil Haskil's report.

 

[strach304]

Premeditation. She killed Caylee with Chloroform after searching for how to make it online, and with duct tape. Nothing else can contribute to the abnormally high levels other than addition of pure Chloroform. It was not produced naturally in the trunk environment, by any of the contents or combination of, including the body.

My only conclusion to explain the really, really high levels of chloroform (off the charts) is that in Casey's research of how to make it she knew that the effects wear off in about 15 minutes. So...her being the little genius she is she saturated the trunk with it (in cloth, paper towels,blanket, pillow, etc.) to try and keep Caylee sedated. We don't have any idea what could have been in that trunk at one time, only what was found afterwards. It's quite a stretch for a normal mind to draw a conclusion for what Casey may or may not have done.

 

[strach304]

I, too, liked the testimony of Dr. Vass yesterday. JB was clearly in over his head, imo.
From my understanding of a Frye hearing, JB needed to show that this science was too new and/or not reliable. IMO, he didn't show either one. So, in my unscientific opinion, his honor will let it in. It will still be up to JB to show that it could be wrong. He really needs someone with more scientific knowledge to question this witness. Big fail. jmo

The whole reason imo why JP will not let it in. For Casey's sake. She doesn't have a qualified lawyer to argue valid points of the findings.

 

[Aedrys]

The whole reason imo why JP will not let it in. For Casey's sake. She doesn't have a qualified lawyer to argue valid points of the findings.

And who's fault is that? CASEY. She hired him, she says she's satisfied, so she's stuck with him. That shouldn't impact HHJP's ruling. I can't believe Baez's ineptness would be an actual reason to not let it in. That is just absurd. She hired him, she has to deal with it. Baez being too stupid for the Frye hearings shouldn't be an advantage for him!

 

[jharres]

Ok, found it! The statement is about 5 minutes in...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYRHyjvrhPs[/ame]

 

[LambChop]

I do think JB has confused the goal of scientists with that of certain types of attorneys, doctors, etc. Scientists are obsessed with finding the answers to things that we would think is boring. For the most part money is not their main priority, that's the job of administration.

The "cool" statement just goes right over JB's head. Funny. It's like JB just got run over by a steamroller. jmo

 

[strach304]

I'm too lazy to try and find the discussion of the Manson Ranch. Can someone point me to it or summarize what the problem with it was? Thanks!:innocent:

The instrument Dr. Vass is using to determine decomp was used at the Barker ranch referred to as the Manson ranch (couple years ago) and got positive readings that led investigators to believe there were bodies buried there. Well, they never found any after doing extensive excavation. I read about it in the news at the time so I remember most of it. This was considered an environmental dig though is what Dr. Vass was trying to explain to JB unlike the car trunk where the variables (contamination) were known/unknown. There's no way to know if the equipment was faulty like JB is trying to prove because for all we know there were 100 dead buffalo there 100 years ago. I hope that makes sense. I understood what Dr. Vass was explaining.

 

[strach304]

Yes, but I don't think he's going to treat Casey as anything special. Death is not that different. I get tired of hearing that. This isn't all that new anyway. The way Vass explained it, I think it has a good chance of coming in. I also think HHJP has done his own research on it. He will be basing his ruling on that and the law, not the specialness of this case, which isn't all that special at all anyway.

Honestly, if he were basing it off of the defense's pathetic and lackluster performance, this would be denied already. All the defense has to hold onto is that death is special for some reason I can't understand. There's nothing special about a mother killing her child and throwing her out like trash. Casey shouldn't be treated as anything but the murdering sociopath she is.

As much as I agree with you and I really do hope you are right JP is very careful and uses the law to decide these matters. He would be more inclined imo to allow it if Casey had decent representation to argue the valid points and then leave it up to the jury to decide. Now I also know it's all on her for having JB as her lawyer but really LKB should have been the one to handle this. It's clear both JB and DCS are out of their league. Go read some of the depos JA has done with expert witnesses. It's really not a fair playing field. JB has constantly whined about the state having unlimited funds and then yesterday in the Frye hearing where he has his little meltdown about the contempt, etc. he is essentially saying no fair, Ashton is smarter than me. If this evidence comes in Casey is toast.

 

[krisskross]

IF the air samples are ruled out, then what will be left in for the jury to hear about the trunk?

1. The smell of decomp. right?
2. The stain. Correct?
3. The evidence of grave waxc on the paper towels...is that still in?
4. The hair of Caylee with the deathband? Still in?

I don't think JP is letting it in either. Not this case. Death is different.

I agree, the potential penalty in this case is probably going to factor into Judge Perry's decision. He also might take into account the additional/alternative evidence that supports the State's theory.

I do however foresee a day when this method of establishing human decomp and PMI will be widely accepted. Right now, not enough folk are choosing to research human decomposition as it relates to the chemicals/ gases the body produces post mortem.

As for the chloroform, volatile fatty acids from the stain and the SMELL, I think Dr Vass will be an awsome witness.

 

[strach304]

Okay, let's say they don't allow the air samples in. What will they still have in terms of the trunk?
They might have the hair and the deathband, and the stain still? Right?

Or would that be gone too?

And they will still have the odor ? Correct?

gravewax, bugs, expert testimony that it is a unique odor, dogs.

 

[LCoastMom]

The whole reason imo why JP will not let it in. For Casey's sake. She doesn't have a qualified lawyer to argue valid points of the findings.

That should not come into it at all! Not the states problem - JB has passed the bar and she has multiple attorneys to do her bidding...