2011.03.24 - Air Sample Expert Testimony

[LancelotLink]

Did anyone notice that Baez, in asking Dr. Vass about collecting controlled air samples on September 3, 2008, asked him if it was generally accepted science to collect them 3 months later? JA corrected his math to 6 weeks, the discovery of the car but I found that 3 months would go back to June, the month the murder took place, as another misstep by Baez.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I haven't had a chance to read the thread. I just finished watching the testimony of Dr Vass for the first time and wanted to (((((scream))))) say a few things
First off, why didn't the DT scientific shred the Dr guru aka DCS cross examine this witness? Wasn't she the one who submitted whatever she submitted, late as per course, at the last hearing regarding air testing or Frye on yellow lined paper?
Why was she there if not to take on the forensics??? Does JB need a DP qualified babysitter during preliminary hearings too?

Who does JB think he is questioning the ethics of someone like Dr Vass? Especially while he's under investigation by his Bar for discretions that could have him disbarred. It was surreal to watch him attempt to suggest that an instrument that was never used in this case, may earn Dr Vass a shared portion of a 15% royalty after 20+ years of accumulated work and testing has gone into it. This from the media w**re with 3 years experience who can't manage his parking tickets. Pompous puffed up....never mind.
Unless Universities work very differently in the US than they do in Canada, it is the University that would own any patent, not the individual researcher employed there. He is being offered a share of royalties and rightly so.
If Dr Vass was ever motivated to get rich, he probably wouldn't have selected to develop expertise in the chemical components of human decomposition working in a University Lab. He'd be working for DuPont on new and improved penile implants and earning several million per year before profit sharing IMHO. What I saw was a man driven by the joy of scientific discovery loyal to the people who have allowed him to engage in his passion while his family grew.

I really don't understand why any of the DT cross examination was allowed today. JB didn't even have the grace to greet Dr Vass. I have no idea what purpose DCS serves except to answer ICA's questions. I'm just at a loss.
I will say this.....in my world, a Doctor with 3 years experience in general surgery would never be allowed to hone craniotomy skills on a living patient ever, let alone while neurosurgeons napped in the corner or played with their laptops. ICA should snap out of her paralegal fantasy world long enough to absorb whats happening around her before her chance at pleading for her sad life is over.
moo

Dr Vass is an amazing witness. I actually understood everything he explained right up until JB started up and even then I still understood Dr Vass

ITA...it came across so disrespectful and Baez seems like someone who has seen too much tv or is maybe very paranoid. I mean not every expert is some conniving money grubber out to lie to everyone. In this case, the SA clearly has the truth on their side. I guess Baez thought he could have an "aha" moment and make it look like Dr. V was sinister for possibly making a small amount of money from his own work...

And what's with the accusing everyone else of what he actally does? It was amazing hearing Baez's implications which actually applied to HIM and not Dr. Vass. I saw no reason for the disrespect, but as we have seen, Baez takes things personally, and must "get revenge" on people. Very odd. Hope the Bar Association is watching.

 

[sassy_texasbelle2]

I haven't had a chance to read the thread. I just finished watching the testimony of Dr Vass for the first time and wanted to (((((scream))))) say a few things
First off, why didn't the DT scientific shred the Dr guru aka DCS cross examine this witness? Wasn't she the one who submitted whatever she submitted, late as per course, at the last hearing regarding air testing or Frye on yellow lined paper?
Why was she there if not to take on the forensics??? Does JB need a DP qualified babysitter during preliminary hearings too?

Who does JB think he is questioning the ethics of someone like Dr Vass? Especially while he's under investigation by his Bar for discretions that could have him disbarred. It was surreal to watch him attempt to suggest that an instrument that was never used in this case, may earn Dr Vass a shared portion of a 15% royalty after 20+ years of accumulated work and testing has gone into it. This from the media w**re with 3 years experience who can't manage his parking tickets. Pompous puffed up....never mind.
Unless Universities work very differently in the US than they do in Canada, it is the University that would own any patent, not the individual researcher employed there. He is being offered a share of royalties and rightly so.
If Dr Vass was ever motivated to get rich, he probably wouldn't have selected to develop expertise in the chemical components of human decomposition working in a University Lab. He'd be working for DuPont on new and improved penile implants and earning several million per year before profit sharing IMHO. What I saw was a man driven by the joy of scientific discovery loyal to the people who have allowed him to engage in his passion while his family grew.

I really don't understand why any of the DT cross examination was allowed today. JB didn't even have the grace to greet Dr Vass. I have no idea what purpose DCS serves except to answer ICA's questions. I'm just at a loss.
I will say this.....in my world, a Doctor with 3 years experience in general surgery would never be allowed to hone craniotomy skills on a living patient ever, let alone while neurosurgeons napped in the corner or played with their laptops. ICA should snap out of her paralegal fantasy world long enough to absorb whats happening around her before her chance at pleading for her sad life is over.
moo

Dr Vass is an amazing witness. I actually understood everything he explained right up until JB started up and even then I still understood Dr Vass

It would be hysterical if he gets as mad during the trial as he got Thursday and falls off his lifts...:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh: Did you see his heading jerking when he came back from his time out.

 

[jon_burrows]

IF the air samples are ruled out, then what will be left in for the jury to hear about the trunk?

1. The smell of decomp. right?
2. The stain. Correct?
3. The evidence of grave waxc on the paper towels...is that still in?
4. The hair of Caylee with the deathband? Still in?

I believe the air samples will come in because JBP made a remark to JB (I'm paraphrasing) that his questions go toward impeaching the witness (not appropriate for a Frye hearing). Impeachment to me means questioning in front of a jury but maybe AZ can chime in?

On the other hand, if the air samples get thrown out Dr. Vass should be able to testify the carpet smelled of human decomp. In fact, the smell was so strong he jumped back two steps. That alone is very compelling evidence. He also said he smelled hundreds of dead bodies so he definitely knows the difference between trash and human decomp.

I've never smelled a dead body but everyone says it's a unique smell, one you never forget. When Dr. Vass used the skunk analogy he made it crystal clear. I rarely ever see a skunk but I know it when I smell one.

Dr. Vass is an excellent witness. He doesn't take sides, he simply states his opinion based on facts and experience. He comes across as honest and eager to share his passion for science. He also has a unique way of explaining complicated scientific facts so that a layperson can easily understand.

IMO

 

[mitzi]

Casey can say whatever she wants to say... the jury will decide what they are to believe based on the evidence that is presented. If the evidence does not point to an accidental drowning... then it doesn't point to an accidental drowning.

The reason the chloroform is important is because of the searches on the computer... the high levels of chloroform detected in the trunk of Casey's car... and there just so happens to be a bottle with liquid that tested positive for chloroform with a syringe on the scene where Caylee's remains would be found. They can't all be coincidences, can they??

I am starting to really believe that chloroform played a huge role in Caylee's death. I am starting to think that Casey injected Caylee with this chloroform and then duct taped her face and placed her in the trunk... to kill her on purpose!

I'm wondering if KC (now this is making me sick at heart) saturated a cloth with chloroform, stuffed it in Caylee's mouth and then applied the 3 pieces of duct tape to keep it there. If Caylee's nostrils were covered, all that chloroform on the cloth would be breathed into her lungs, through her mouth. The cloth could have eventually disintegrated over time at the dump site and all that remained would have been the duct tape over her skull.

 

[Kentjbkent]

Did anyone notice that Baez, in asking Dr. Vass about collecting controlled air samples on September 3, 2008, asked him if it was generally accepted science to collect them 3 months later? JA corrected his math to 6 weeks, the discovery of the car but I found that 3 months would go back to June, the month the murder took place, as another misstep by Baez.

Which also brings back up the question some continue to ponder as to exactly WHEN Casey first had contact with Baez....:waitasec:

Remember, Baez himself stated in open court that he was retained by Casey in JUNE (indigent hearing)....(although others believe he misspoke)...

....and of course, RH posted his blog questioning the timeframe of Baez first involvement immediately after Casey was arrested the first time...

Hmmm....:waitasec: Never really bought into the "June theory" but am now rethinking myself...

 

[mitzi]

My opinion I posted a few pages back suggests that Casey found out while researching how to make chloroform that she found out the effects only last approx. 15 mins. Going way back I theorized the duct tape was used to hold in place chloroform saturated cloth (paper towels, etc.) over Caylee's nose and mouth. Naturally there would be no evidence of paper towels after all that time in the environment. Keep in mind we're talking about Casey. In Casey's mind she may have assumed that would keep Caylee sedated if there was a constant feed of the drug. The effects would not wear off in 15 minutes. I would not be one damn bit surprised if the idea of suffocation from the tape never occurred to her. It also explains why she was never truthful about any of it. The truth really is that bad, worse than what some were thinking at the time. As if that wasn't bad enough she proceeded to dump her child like trash. She knew she couldn't take LE to the body because of what they would find.

Bold mine.

Sorry...I should have read further before I posted my thoughts....oh well, can we just say, Great Minds Think Alike?

 

[2goldfish]

LOL logicalgirl, I was just trying to dial that up! Upon being confronted with another researcher's findings pretty much lining up with his (IIRC), he blew JB's socks off with "isn't that cool?"

And my heart just melted for this man.

ITA. I love anyone anytime with such a beautiful enthusiam for what they do.

 

[bananarama]

For all of the Arpad Vass admirers, here is an interesting article about him from two years ago:

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/dec/14/death-detector/

And for any gamers...he plays Portal :loveyou:

I'm headed to Oak Ridge next week. Wish I could pop in to shake his hand!

 

[Aedrys]

My opinion I posted a few pages back suggests that Casey found out while researching how to make chloroform that she found out the effects only last approx. 15 mins. Going way back I theorized the duct tape was used to hold in place chloroform saturated cloth (paper towels, etc.) over Caylee's nose and mouth. Naturally there would be no evidence of paper towels after all that time in the environment. Keep in mind we're talking about Casey. In Casey's mind she may have assumed that would keep Caylee sedated if there was a constant feed of the drug. The effects would not wear off in 15 minutes. I would not be one damn bit surprised if the idea of suffocation from the tape never occurred to her. It also explains why she was never truthful about any of it. The truth really is that bad, worse than what some were thinking at the time. As if that wasn't bad enough she proceeded to dump her child like trash. She knew she couldn't take LE to the body because of what they would find.

That actually makes a lot of sense. It would explain why there was no duct tape over Caylee's nose. She had enough to keep rag saturated in chloroform to cover Caylee's nose. And I bet that one other piece that was separate was there to keep Caylee from using her hands to get the duct tape off or at least pull out the chloroform soaked rag. Wow. This really could be worse than thought. And adding in what another poster said about Casey trying out chloroform on her parent's dogs...holy moly...

I wonder if she had put Caylee asleep in the trunk before with chloroform, but just hadn't used duct tape to secure her? I wonder if the high level of chlorform wasn't from one time, but many different times of poor Caylee being put back there and knocked out with chloroform? So the levels built up over time? Maybe before just having a rag on her face was enough to keep her knocked out for awhile, but this last time, she was angry and wanted to make dang sure Caylee had no chance of waking up or getting it off of her face before Casey got back to deal with her? Or maybe she knew it might kill her and didn't care? I have the feeling this murder is more cold and calculated than we ever imagined...

 

[kaRN]

I'm headed to Oak Ridge next week. Wish I could pop in to shake his hand!

You could call the University and get his extension and leave a voice message! Contrary to JB's reports to court re the impossibilities of contacting these scientific expertise folks, it's really pretty easy

 

[kaRN]

My opinion I posted a few pages back suggests that Casey found out while researching how to make chloroform that she found out the effects only last approx. 15 mins. Going way back I theorized the duct tape was used to hold in place chloroform saturated cloth (paper towels, etc.) over Caylee's nose and mouth. Naturally there would be no evidence of paper towels after all that time in the environment. Keep in mind we're talking about Casey. In Casey's mind she may have assumed that would keep Caylee sedated if there was a constant feed of the drug. The effects would not wear off in 15 minutes. I would not be one damn bit surprised if the idea of suffocation from the tape never occurred to her. It also explains why she was never truthful about any of it. The truth really is that bad, worse than what some were thinking at the time. As if that wasn't bad enough she proceeded to dump her child like trash. She knew she couldn't take LE to the body because of what they would find.

Hmmm. Good thoughts!
I don't believe (not a lawyer though) that taping a cloth saturated with chloroform over Caylees mouth supports pre meditated murder, only a whole lot of other horrific crimes.
I believe the trunk was Caylees bedroom at Zanny's and had been for a long while. I think ICA didn't need a rag to douse with chloroform when she had the trunk carpet, and just needed to spill a little on there to keep Caylee knocked out a long time. Or just leave an open bottle of her home brew chloroform in the trunk. I believe the tape was to muffle Caylees screams if she did happen to wake up in the trunk. IMO, pre-meditation occurred when it did occur to ICA the night of June 15? that she should go down and check on her drugged Caylee and chose to watch another video with Tony and another after that. She was afraid to on the 16th, and by the time she did check on Caylee, the odor was there.

Who knows. We're not psychopaths and she is

 

[faefrost]

You could call the University and get his extension and leave a voice message! Contrary to JB's reports to court re the impossibilities of contacting these scientific expertise folks, it's really pretty easy

Or send him a Pizza! :innocent:

 

[LancelotLink]

Which also brings back up the question some continue to ponder as to exactly WHEN Casey first had contact with Baez....:waitasec:

Remember, Baez himself stated in open court that he was retained by Casey in JUNE (indigent hearing)....(although others believe he misspoke)...

....and of course, RH posted his blog questioning the timeframe of Baez first involvement immediately after Casey was arrested the first time...

Hmmm....:waitasec: Never really bought into the "June theory" but am now rethinking myself...

I agree. I think it is safe to say that there is no theory in this case that can't at least be looked at now.
For me, when I heard this from Baez thought about what Baez knows about what really happened, which I have suspected all along.

 

[LambChop]

I agree. I think it is safe to say that there is no theory in this case that can't at least be looked at now.
For me, when I heard this from Baez thought about what Baez knows about what really happened, which I have suspected all along.

In my mind I can't think of anything that could explain the duct tape except for the obvious. jmo

 

[Jolynna]

The chloroformed soaked rag wouldn't have to be over Caylee's mouth or nose. A chloroform saturated rag/blanket/pull-up diaper anywhere CLOSE to Caylee's face would turn the Pontiac car trunk into a death chamber.

Nowbere could KC find ANY site, not one, on how to use chloroform as a babysitter. You also do not research "neck-breaking" in addition to "how to make chloroform" IF your goal is finding a babysitter. The search for "neck-breaking" was done in the same session as the search for "how to make chloroform".

How to euthanize with chloroform is all over the internet. You WOULD also research "neck-breaking" if your goal was putting something/someone down.

3 states (Deleware, Tennessee and Oklahoma) use chloroform soaked cotton in a chamber to euthanize animals. The chamber keeps the personnel performing the euthanasia safe. Taxidermists (that don't want the animal's fur messed up) use this method. So do breeders of lab animals. (the taxidermist and lab animal sites also suggest "neck-breaking" as a humane way to put an animal down.)

Here is the shelter guide showing the recommended procedure for putting down an unwanted animal with chloroform and a death chamber (pages 5-7). When you look at the diagram of the recommended death chamber, think about how it compares to the Pontiac trunk:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:VKpRXfCqvjEJ:www.nrvanimalshelters.com/VALAWS/Animal%2520Care-Control%2520Euthanasia.pdf+chloroform+neck-breaking+%22animal+euthanasia%22&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShJaZa1ys2pYR2fDJ2hW6s4g3GnZr9uXKDDpHPftSQLmdAmx5FKUK0_K4TsZn60umNI9c4eyEwC_iL8hspAktbmrs2LpkGKk6nN4B3btVzzDHzgKdi-EwdvxM09ajonK8vIjaF5&sig=AHIEtbT1_U2OE27CkLXH1SrZpKU4XHIqpw

 

[Jolynna]

We just heard Dr. Vass's testimony. The defense expert, Dr. Logan admitted in his depositon that Dr. Vass's testing indicated the level of chloroform was high. (pages 41 & 42 of Dr. Logan's deposition)

If the Pontiac trunk was used as part of Caylee's murder, KC didn't even have to see the results of her nasty deed. She could have just taped Caylee up so nobody could hear her, put her in the trunk with the soaked rag and called it "putting Caylee to sleep".

However Caylee's murder went down, I believe the evidence presented by Dr. Vass yesterday confirms that KC is a stone-cold killer who earned her First Degree Murder indictment.

KC would have to be the unluckiest woman in the world to have had her pitched her child into a car trunk full of chloroform fumes after the child's "accidental death" within weeks after she'd been surfing the web looking for ways to "make chloroform" and "neck-breaking". Oh yeah...some way duct tape got wrapped over all of Caylee's airways, too.

imo

 

[Tulessa]

I'm headed to Oak Ridge next week. Wish I could pop in to shake his hand!

He's 2 and 1/2 hours from me, but I can't get hubby to agree to go.

 

[strach304]

Bold mine.

Sorry...I should have read further before I posted my thoughts....oh well, can we just say, Great Minds Think Alike?

This case has been dragging on for so long. I've had many theories and then some as we become aware of additional info.

 

[AZlawyer]

I'm wondering if KC (now this is making me sick at heart) saturated a cloth with chloroform, stuffed it in Caylee's mouth and then applied the 3 pieces of duct tape to keep it there. If Caylee's nostrils were covered, all that chloroform on the cloth would be breathed into her lungs, through her mouth. The cloth could have eventually disintegrated over time at the dump site and all that remained would have been the duct tape over her skull.

The chloroformed soaked rag wouldn't have to be over Caylee's mouth or nose. A chloroform saturated rag/blanket/pull-up diaper anywhere CLOSE to Caylee's face would turn the Pontiac car trunk into a death chamber.

Nowbere could KC find ANY site, not one, on how to use chloroform as a babysitter. You also do not research "neck-breaking" in addition to "how to make chloroform" IF your goal is finding a babysitter. The search for "neck-breaking" was done in the same session as the search for "how to make chloroform".

How to euthanize with chloroform is all over the internet. You WOULD also research "neck-breaking" if your goal was putting something/someone down.

3 states (Deleware, Tennessee and Oklahoma) use chloroform soaked cotton in a chamber to euthanize animals. The chamber keeps the personnel performing the euthanasia safe. Taxidermists (that don't want the animal's fur messed up) use this method. So do breeders of lab animals. (the taxidermist and lab animal sites also suggest "neck-breaking" as a humane way to put an animal down.)

Here is the shelter guide showing the recommended procedure for putting down an unwanted animal with chloroform and a death chamber (pages 5-7). When you look at the diagram of the recommended death chamber, think about how it compares to the Pontiac trunk:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:VKpRXfCqvjEJ:www.nrvanimalshelters.com/VALAWS/Animal%2520Care-Control%2520Euthanasia.pdf+chloroform+neck-breaking+%22animal+euthanasia%22&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShJaZa1ys2pYR2fDJ2hW6s4g3GnZr9uXKDDpHPftSQLmdAmx5FKUK0_K4TsZn60umNI9c4eyEwC_iL8hspAktbmrs2LpkGKk6nN4B3btVzzDHzgKdi-EwdvxM09ajonK8vIjaF5&sig=AHIEtbT1_U2OE27CkLXH1SrZpKU4XHIqpw

Remember a long time ago we discussed in the Fiber Analysis thread that there were black wool fibers found ONLY on Mama Doll and on the 3 pieces of duct tape found on Caylee's skull? I wondered if Mama Doll had been wearing something that had been soaked in chloroform and later discarded, but the doll itself showed no traces of chloroform. :waitasec:

Hmmm. Good thoughts!
I don't believe (not a lawyer though) that taping a cloth saturated with chloroform over Caylees mouth supports pre meditated murder, only a whole lot of other horrific crimes.
I believe the trunk was Caylees bedroom at Zanny's and had been for a long while. I think ICA didn't need a rag to douse with chloroform when she had the trunk carpet, and just needed to spill a little on there to keep Caylee knocked out a long time. Or just leave an open bottle of her home brew chloroform in the trunk. I believe the tape was to muffle Caylees screams if she did happen to wake up in the trunk. IMO, pre-meditation occurred when it did occur to ICA the night of June 15? that she should go down and check on her drugged Caylee and chose to watch another video with Tony and another after that. She was afraid to on the 16th, and by the time she did check on Caylee, the odor was there.

Who knows. We're not psychopaths and she is

Duct-taping a cloth soaked with chloroform over a baby's face would VERY MUCH support a charge of premeditated murder. Also felony murder and aggravated child abuse.