2011.03.24 Frye Hearing - Afternoon portion

[joypath]

Random interjection:
I didn't get to watch it all yet and as I do watch, I am working on a summary for the summary thread that is more summary and less transcripty :blush: than yesterday's summaries...finally got me some computer speakers, which is much easier on my forever congested ears than sound-dampening, ear vacuuming headphones.

flourish: YESTERDAY's piece was AMAZING, perfect and caught the TONE and action "just right"! "TRANSCRIPTY" at just the right level, you are so talented!:rocker: MERCI!

 

[AZlawyer]

This makes sense to me, and I think it (her dissociating) has a chance of being true, for whatever reason. Her behavior was absurd. I just don't know how dissociation would go to defending herself against murder charges.

Because, wouldn't that theory cut both ways? In other words why would it be that "she was dissociating from a kidnapping trauma"? It could also be "she was dissociating from murdering her daughter"?

Oh, "ABSOLUTELY" as the As would say. The disassociation theory does not PROVE innocence at all--it just makes the behavioral evidence more CONSISTENT with innocence--or guilt--either one--just neutralizing the evidence instead of having it help either party.

 

[Turnadot]

Oh, "ABSOLUTELY" as the As would say. The disassociation theory does not PROVE innocence at all--it just makes the behavioral evidence more CONSISTENT with innocence--or guilt--either one--just neutralizing the evidence instead of having it help either party.

This would be a smart move, so I doubt JB will do it.

 

[Whome?]

Someone better counsel her to stop and pay attention once in a while (and not just when Baez is up). She seems too removed from what is going on.

For some reason Jean C of Tru tv is "off the mark" ALOT. I don't know what trials she is watching,it sure is not the same one I'm watching. Prior to me watching trials on the internet,I would have to "assume" that she knew what she was talking about,because she was a CTV commentator,but I am watching the trial gavel to gavel with no commericals, and I DO NOT SEE what she is talking about. I do believe her commentary at times is biased and it has made me suspect all of her opinions JMHO.:waitasec:

 

[wenwe4]

Sorry if this has been brought up-But I am re-listening to the hearing, the part with Dr. Vass.

JB is asking about the ingredients of the items in the trash bag.

Let's say he goes in the direction of the salami package, as the pizza pie in the sky is not gonna fly...when the trash bag evidence was first released, I found and posted a link to an article here that talked about how pork based salami, as it is aged, releases olefins/proteins similar to those in adipocere. We know an Oscar Mayer salami package was in the bag.
Someone, maybe it was Val, quickly eliminated the idea that the little pieces of fat that sometimes pop out of salami, which may have been in the package and on the paper towel, would be similar to adipocere under a microscope or other testing. It may have had to do with the salts and preservatives.

Just puttin it out there now, in the event that JB goes in that direction-It has already been hashed over here and I was convinced that salami fatty pieces canot be mistaken for any kind of human remain "leftovers, " let alone cause chloroform scents in the trunk.

Here's my take on the adipocere on the paper towels . . . .
these paper towels were used to clean up decomp fluids of some sort and kept in the trunk but also in an anaerobic (sic?) condition - meaning not exposed to air. Could there be so much (10,000 x more) chloroform in the trunk that the decomp fluids were essentially no longer exposed to air but to the chloroform itself? And who's to say that there wasn't THC in the trunk or on kc's hands when she wiped the decomp fluids off. decomp fluids deposited on a greasy napkin could produce adipocere in a moist enviornment (was there a huge amount of chloroform spilled in the trunk at or near the time of placement of the body or removal of the body?)

 

[LambChop]

Sorry if this has been brought up-But I am re-listening to the hearing, the part with Dr. Vass.

JB is asking about the ingredients of the items in the trash bag.

Let's say he goes in the direction of the salami package, as the pizza pie in the sky is not gonna fly...when the trash bag evidence was first released, I found and posted a link to an article here that talked about how pork based salami, as it is aged, releases olefins/proteins similar to those in adipocere. We know an Oscar Mayer salami package was in the bag.
Someone, maybe it was Val, quickly eliminated the idea that the little pieces of fat that sometimes pop out of salami, which may have been in the package and on the paper towel, would be similar to adipocere under a microscope or other testing. It may have had to do with the salts and preservatives.

Just puttin it out there now, in the event that JB goes in that direction-It has already been hashed over here and I was convinced that salami fatty pieces canot be mistaken for any kind of human remain "leftovers, " let alone cause chloroform scents in the trunk.

I believe the answer to that was because it was processed meat.

 

[ThinkTank]

Excellent screen shots. Now only if you could get a screen shot of what many of us thought HHJP was experiencing a stroke of some kind. His eye twitching had me worried for a bit.

what was being discussed at that time in the Hearing? maybe I can find that portion of the video and capture a photo (thanks to ANJ help with screen captures!!)

 

[cyberborg]

For some reason Jean C of Tru tv is "off the mark" ALOT. I don't know what trials she is watching,it sure is not the same one I'm watching. Prior to me watching trials on the internet,I would have to "assume" that she knew what she was talking about,because she was a CTV commentator,but I am watching the trial gavel to gavel with no commericals, and I DO NOT SEE what she is talking about. I do believe her commentary at times is biased and it has made me suspect all of her opinions JMHO.:waitasec:

I believe she is following the HLN party line to keep the Defense on board so that they appear on HLN shows. She has changed her tune, a shift towards the Defense.

 

[LyndyLoo]

Respect LyndyLoo - especially that you can attest to it.....

My :twocents: It makes me wonder how long that garage had the lingering scent of Caylee in it.....or is it even possible that it still could from time to time?

Okay..sorry for taking so long to respond..It is my understanding that Decomp odour comes from the fluids and tissues that are breaking down..and as far as Garage goes..It was only in that garage for a day or so...Those naxious odor would likely be able to be aired out..as I dont think the carpeting that held those fluids being an absorptive material would not likely be cleanable..however just odour or smell could be dispelled with air circulation and any hard surfaces (which does not absorb) could be wiped unless fluids seeped into crevices.....

Entirely too long explanation..But suffice to say that Car had a long time to absorb that odour and fluids into soft fabrics ( between Heat and locked up tight)...I had toLOL at Casey's excuse to Amy that she had a dead squirrel that got lodged under her car..Nope..and even Dr. Vass today said he was surprised Decomposing Squirrels dont smell like decomp:floorlaugh:

 

[believe09]

here is Baez's tantrum:

http://www.wesh.com/casey-anthony-extended-coverage/27312287/video.html

Thank you from the bottom of my heart-how is it that the courtroom did not erupt in hysterical laughter?

 

[ThinkTank]

Awesome screen caps, TT, and thank you so much for everything you do for us here...

Now, do you happen to have any shots of KC's face when Sgt. Forgey was testifying about the cadaver dog hits in her backyard? Or when Dr. Vass was testifying about the smell from the trunk liner sample he got?

Purely for scientific/comparison purposes, you understand...

post # 128 shows KC face when Vass said his reaction to opening the can with the carpet/trunk liner sample was that he jumped back 2 ft because the smell was pretty strong - KC tried to do a hidden look up at him with only her eyes, then quickly looked down again.

I will look for the Forgey testimony about the cadaver dog hits in back yard .... as I recall, she kept looking down at her "important" writing on her yellow pad ....

 

[wonders]

she made those faces when Vass was talking about the crematorium owner who deposited 300-400 bodies out back and not cremating them.

http://www.wftv.com/video/27310819/index.html
(17:51)

Thank you ThinkTank...When I saw that today I was floored, like what she did was any better.

ETA: I really think she forgot that she is the defendant.

 

[darnudes]

Don't know which was the worst moment today...

1. The smirk and the wink to Simms and ICA by Baez.
2. The facebook and Wiki reference by Baez and insinuation that Dr Vass wrote them.
3. Baez's tanty minus only a stomping foot.
4. ICA boggling eyes and look of disgust when funeral owner dumped bodies out the back door.

Toss up.

 

[JSR]

what was being discussed at that time in the Hearing? maybe I can find that portion of the video and capture a photo (thanks to ANJ help with screen captures!!)

If I recall (help me out WSers) it was either right after JB's meltdown or right before or right after the introduction of the manson stuff. But I do recall it was during a point in which HHJP was again schooling JB in what a Frye hearing is for and that he needed to focus on the science.

 

[Lanie]

Right. But I was under the understanding that a Frye hearing was for the sole purpose of questioning if 'the machinery' was an accepted way of testing. I didn't think a Frye Hearing could cover 'the results' thus obtained from 'the machinery'.

Since JP said what he did though, I guess a Frye Hearing can address 'the results' regardless of the machinery that was used to obtain them.

This is tricky.

My understanding is the purpose of a Frye hearing is to determine if evidence has been obtained by authentic scientific methods that can be duplicated and verified. This would be used for 'new' science.
It's not enough Dr. Vass says it is so. He has to show how he got these results, and at least some of it has to be based on accepted scientific method. This is not something anyone wants to drag into a trial and confuse jurors with, so all the evidence is presented in a Frye hearing to debate and decide if this is a legitimate way to obtain evidence, or if it is junk.

Polygraphs would be a good example. They are not accepted in court because it has been proven people can lie and show truth, and or tell the truth and show as lying. So while LE uses them as investigative tools, they aren't allowed in as evidence.

Baez can try to show the GCMS (or whatever) does not correctly read air sample results, or get another scientist to follow the steps of Dr. Vass and come up with different results, or prove that compounds A, B, C, and D do not equal human decomposition, etc. Unfortunately for him, IMO, he has had an epic fail at this. While this procedure has not been used in a Florida court before, it has been used in other state's courts, to my knowledge, and also, Dr. Vass has been perfecting this process for many years, testing, retesting, and retesting the retesting, so I don't think Baez stands a snowball's chance of getting this kicked.

 

[Just Jayla]

Here's what I love about the law that has to be killing JB this evening-No matter how worked up you get, no matter how empassioned you are, no matter how right you think you are...the law remains the same. Jagged.Little.Pill for JB today, when HHJP refused to budge on the scope of Frye hearings.

 

[Ssejors]

Also, the abuse/neglect angle is a wash, IMO, because of the way KC treated her parents during the jail visit, and on the telephone when she called for Tony's number. The way KC talked to her own mother was appalling.

As for the ugly coping. As a juror the only way I would consider this idea is if the defence could show me a KC that was different before Caylee was murdered. The defence can't do it.

All my own opinions.

BBM - ITA The way she talks to her parents is not, IMO the way a scared and abused little girl would talk to her parents. She's NOT even remotely afraid of Cindy. She takes pleasure in tormenting Cindy. And GA. being afraid of him is laughable.

 

[logicalgirl]

Don't know which was the worst moment today...

1. The smirk and the wink to Simms and ICA by Baez.
2. The facebook and Wiki reference by Baez and insinuation that Dr Vass wrote them.
3. Baez's tanty minus only a stomping foot.
4. ICA boggling eyes and look of disgust when funeral owner dumped bodies out the back door.

Toss up.

I think Amil is saying this smirk and so called wink was actually directed at CA - who had asked Baez a question about something she didn't understand earlier.

 

[ynotdivein]

post # 128 shows KC face when Vass said his reaction to opening the can with the carpet/trunk liner sample was that he jumped back 2 ft because the smell was pretty strong - KC tried to do a hidden look up at him with only her eyes, then quickly looked down again.

I will look for the Forgey testimony about the cadaver dog hits in back yard .... as I recall, she kept looking down at her "important" writing on her yellow pad ....

TT, you are amazing.

I look at this stuff going on, and I try to put myself in KC's shoes. If I were innocent of anything, and had to sit through these hearings, I'd be absolutely shattered. A sobbing mess. He77, as an innocent bystander, some of this testimony has brought me to tears. If KC were innocent, would she not be broken by hearing this testimony about her baby's demise?

And then again, if I were KC and I were actually guilty of Caylee's death, and I were forced to come in day after day and hear all this--well, then I would still break down in tears. But that's me. If I were KC, and it was 3 years later and it all seemed like something in the distant past and unrelated to me... then yeah, I guess the paralegal act might be a good distraction from the fact that I had NO IDEA how an actually innocent and grieving mother might act in the courtroom. :banghead:

 

[Lanie]

Was it "methodologies"?

Thank you, I believe it was.

I've watched these hearing before, and usually I'm okay with it, but I don't know how to describe the effect the last 2 days has had on me other than to say I think this afternoon my brain started shutting down in self-defense. I have a lot of blank spots and it's a weird sensation. I think I'm recuperating now, though.