2011.06.17 Sidebar Thread (Trial Day Twenty-One)

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Correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't the witness say he knew of no way to clean decomp from carpets and that usually the carpets are disposed of?
Okay, so I wonder what this guy uses? http://www.human-decomposition-cleanup.com/

If you really want to know some details, I can ask my brother. He used to work for a company that cleaned up after fires, floods, crime scenes, etc. Boy, did he have some stories.
 
What if...

The shovel were used to re-bag her and then placed poolside for later washing in the pool. Realizing the soil was contaminated there by placing the shovel leaning on the pool the soil was dug up and removed or dispersed elsewhere in the yard (explains the small hole dug poolside?) Could she have taken that dirt from that small hole and spread it on the other side of the yard where the cadaver dogs alerted?

Just something to ponder...

Your theory would explain why JB made a big deal about LE not testing the pool water. He was worried about drowning but maybe decomp fluid would have been detected if they had.
 
I once bagged a dead opossum that I picked up from the road in front of my house, and left it outside on the concrete until trash day, (about 2 days later) because it smelled! It stained the concrete through the bag! I had to wash/bleach the stain like crazy to get rid of it, even though the bag never leaked. That plastics has a tight enough matrix to prevent liquid from escaping, but it doesn't seem like the molecules are close enough to prevent certain gasses from passing through.

I vividly remember when you posted that initially (long time ago) and that was the final clue to me that indeed Caylee was in that trunk. The stain on the trunk liner is the shroud of Turin for this darling little one....I am so hoping the defense opened the door to the stain in the trunk - I say let JA bring it on and let the jurors see for themselves what stain looked like....That child was laying on the trunk liner for at least 2-3 days just like your opossum...I believe that the decomposing gasses can make a sweat line (for lack of a better word) on the bag where there is pressure and where there is not.....I would love to see Joypath's take on this whole thing now (she may have commented on this before)....Your personal experience USAR is the best fitting replication of the same evidence we are seeing in the trunk of kc's car. Replicatable, reliable research - even though you did not know you might be contributing to this conversation.....I assume you had no "dog" in this fight @ the time of your experience....Thank You!

It has already been stipulated in court that if a body was enclosed in a bag and tightly closed it would disrupt the colonization of insects.....apples and oranges to me with regard to Dr. Huntington but temps didn't match, the carcass was not triple bagged, and Dr. H never saw the stain in the trunk because he admits the liner had been removed by the time he saw it! (sorry haven't read the whole thread - please excuse if this has been brought up)
 
If you really want to know some details, I can ask my brother. He used to work for a company that cleaned up after fires, floods, crime scenes, etc. Boy, did he have some stories.
Yes please and welcome!!
 
the rules to get ticket for trial changed after a brawl this morning. guy in head lock and woman beating on him with water bottle. so now- you must line up no earlier than 4pm day prior and next day if you get ticket you must show id. no camping out anymore. imagine this will cut down on line a bit if some wil not want to drive for hours to get ticket and come back next day. monday tickets need to be from sat .line at 4. just nuts!!

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/na...y-line-fight-courthous20110617,0,108135.story

They ought to put out some dresscode rules while they're at it. Who shows up to court in the wrinkled, sweaty, slept in all night t-shirts, shorts and flip flops to begin with?

Seriously people?
 
I don't know if I can completely agree with you.....Being a Paramedic and having been on multiple death calls, the smell of decomp is horrendous! I have been on two un-witnessed death scenes where both victims had been not been seen for over two weeks and one of them was in enclosed in a house with no AC on, here in Florida and in the summer. After only having brief contact with the deceased, my partner and I both had to throw away our uniforms away once we got back to our station. The smell had permeated our clothes, hair, nasal passages etc.. Days later after multiple showers you could still smell the "decomp" in my hair. The stain of the deceased had actually embedded into the terrazzo floor. Everything in that house would have to be thrown away because the smell would have permeated everything that it could......no company could clean that up.

The last call I went up to the door of the apartment, I noticed the smell along with the flies all over the inside of the windows and quickly backed away and allowed the fire department to make forced entry in complete fire gear and breathing apparatus. Only one Paramedic/Firefighter made entry to confirm the death, the rest were getting sick..............Florida requires that a Paramedic must confirm the death even if it is obvious...but like they have been saying decomp is a smell you will never forget. God bless the police and coroner who spent more time with the decedent than we had to.

Also having been on several autopsies here in Orlando; everything is pretty much disposable in ME's examining room (instruments, gowns, booties, masks etc). As a matter of fact there is a "special isolated room, climate controlled that has a reverse air system" in the morgue that is especially used just for decomposed bodies so the smell does not waft throughout the morgue. The table is metal and the deceased is opened and examined usually in the bag that they were brought in.....after the autopsy is complete the bag is zipped and remains at the morgue until pickup by the funeral home, obviously someone who is that decomposed would be cremated, unless objected to by the family.

And in regards to buying a car with a decomp stain in it from a dead body...How would you know??? CarFax? If you remember early on the tow truck driver said that the cars that he received that had decomposing bodies in them had to be destroyed?

And yes you are right there are "cleaning companies" but most of time they clean crime scenes ( gunshots, suicides by gun, stabbings) they clean the aftermath of death. But once the decomp fluid has embedded itself in carpet, wood, mattress you will not get it out...it has to be replaced.

But remember this is only my opinion.........:cow:

Have a good day:seeya:

BBM:

My best friend's cousin passed away and his body was found in his house a week or so after his death. The house had to be sold but the decomp smell and fluids were a huge problem. My friend hired a company to come in to come in to assess the clean up. They had to replace the floor joists, the flooring, the carpet, etc. One company came in with an "ionizer" machine (?) to help remove the smell from the air. The house was totally locked up for days while this "machine" did it's job. So you are right, everything HAS to be replaced or else the stench will never go away!
 
If that outline is accurate as to Caylees position then it really suggests she was in the trunk alive and struggling and not drowned and placed there. She'd be limp and lie flat after a drowning. She wouldn't be in fetal position facing the carpet.
She could have been tossed into the trunk I guess but still........:(

I would think bagging a recently deceased body, especially a young body would result in a fetal position as the legs and arms are drawn in to accommodate the pressure of the bag against the weight of the body.
 
Watching Huntington reminds me of a classmate that always argued his point with the professor no matter if he was right or not. Just sayin...:twocents:
 
CA was at some time a nursing student and had to take lab classes.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistrylabexperiments/a/cleanglassware.htm



Water Insoluble Solutions
(e.g., solutions in hexane or chloroform) Rinse 2-3 times with ethanol or acetone, rinse 3-4 times with deionized water, then put the glassware away. In some situations other solvents need to be used for the initial rinse.

Gravewax and decomp stain would be water insoluble solutions.


Just wanted to add that ethanol is gasoline -- the kind you buy to fill up your car or a gas can.
 
Was Jose done questioning this witness or will he continue after lunch? I am working at my friends store again... so I can't keep up with the posts like I usually can. Thanks in advance!
 
In virtually every case that I've followed here and that has gone to trial, posters become frustrated that the prosecutors are not proving the case and have left important facts out. Then we all become distraught that the defense is explaining away the evidence in unfair (or even fair) ways. But, except for Michael Jackson, I can't think of one case on here that has gone to trial in which the defendant has been found not guilty -- although there probably are a few.

When we know every little incriminating detail, it's hard to see any of them left out. But I think juries can see the forest without having to see every single tree.

I'm a little worried about this one myself and I've followed tons of cases. I have trouble visualizing an acquittal but possibly a hung jury. Only because SA hasn't shown the side of Casey where she had a lot more motive than just partying. Along with her hateful, spiteful biotch self.
 
Totally off topic, but did anyone else hear the news last night that Joran van der Sloot is going to be a father. That is just sick and so unjust that he is being allowed conjical (spelling) visits with his girlfriend. It seems like he has it made in that Peruvian prison. It is just so wrong.

OT but that really irritates me. IMHO part of the purpose of prison is to eliminate the "bad genes" from society!
 
Speaking of her being in the fetal position.... that does kind of lend hope that she WAS alseep from the chloroform, doesn't it? And hopefully unaware of being duct taped?


I've always hoped that's the way it happened!
 
How many witnesses do the DT have lined up to testify? At approximately one per day, I'd like to try to figure out how long they intend to go. Another 3 or 4 months?
 
Well I'm glad they have done something about the lines and sleeping there. Now they will be lined up all day in the hot sun. Something had to be done how many people have to get hurt.

If these people can't behave in line how can they be trusted not to seriously damage the integrity of the trial?
 
here is the magic portal to the afternoon trial thread: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139915"]2011.06.17 TRIAL Day Twenty-one (Afternoon Session) - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
 
I owe you a coke (rum optional).

Love one, however without the coke. Can't drink that stuff. I have a bottle of ginger ale though.

Here's a picture that JWG put together for anyone wanting to take a look at the stain.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=14310

I was one of the first to see Caylee's image on the liner. Boy, did I get grief over it. Everyone else mostly saw kittens. I even started questioning my sanity (doesn't take much to lose it) but once JWG, BJB, AZLawyer and others I respect saw it, I was good to go. That photo still gets to me more than reading the autopsy reports.
 
I missed all testimony this morning and by reading through the trial thread to catch up; I am now glad that I did. I don't think my BP could handle it.

Juror #4---I am not worried. IMO she is easily persuaded as evidenced by her ability to be easily rehabbed by HHJP. IIRC, there were other potential jurors who stated that they couldn't judge, or something similar; and were subsequently dismissed even after HHJP attempted to rehabilitate them. This was not the case with her.

While I don't necessarily believe she will be as easily persuaded by the other jurors, as she was by HHJP; I do believe that she will allow their interpretations to influence...or guide...the direction of her analysis to conclude a verdict. After all, she's not comfortable judging; thus she will look to the other jurors to help her out....IMO.
 
Here's the FBI emails about the stain in the trunk for those interested who've not read them.

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21151220/detail.html

I was reading the email you posted the link for, thanks.

If you read the 2nd message from Karen to Karen on Oct 1, 2008 she was telling her the car had been moved from OSCO to CSI garage and
"it still smells horrible".

JA has got to get that smell can in.
 
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