2011.06.21 TRIAL Day Twenty-four (Afternoon Session)
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greycoupon
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Oookay. That tweet didn't translate well. So Casey would be executed in the 23rd century based on the current number of inmates on death row and how long each is taking. Meaning she will die in jail.
I thought Georgia was pretty bad. After reading a lot of posts here I was reminded I actually knew someone who was murdered a very long time ago. Looked up the case and her killer was executed in January. I believe he was convicted in 1989-90. I guess that makes us pretty quick.
I thought Georgia was pretty bad. After reading a lot of posts here I was reminded I actually knew someone who was murdered a very long time ago. Looked up the case and her killer was executed in January. I believe he was convicted in 1989-90. I guess that makes us pretty quick.
technicalconfusion
Curses! Foiled Again!
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MagpieFromHinky Pamela
the jury isn't bothering to have their happy chats today. They're over it & want to quit wasting time with delays & sidebars
the jury isn't bothering to have their happy chats today. They're over it & want to quit wasting time with delays & sidebars
Novice Seeker
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Pleeze, now CM wants to play??
mombomb
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CROSS EXAMINATION OF MR. EIKELENBOOM BY JA
No PhD. He is a student at the University of Denver under biologists - not experts in touch DNA.
He and his wife started their independent lab. His wife and a co-worker started in 2003 and he started in 2005. The lab is in a converted barn in order to make it into a DNA lab.
In 2008 they decided to expand their business to the United States.
He is not so sure that this exposure will help him with his business. He stated that he is very busy and is not waiting for business. His U.S. lab is not opened yet. They already have a lot of work and are trying to downscale. They are not always working for the money. They have cases they do for free. They would rather work like they want to and, if they wanted to expand, they could have expanded more than they did. However, it is very difficult to get DNA scientists.
# of other labs in U.S. that do contact DNA? Bodie (sp) and New York Laboratory and the lab in Denver. He doesn't agree they can do exactly what he does. He feels they have more experience than the other labs. They have been doing low copy DNA for a while. He has had a lot of experience with contact DNA.
He did not invent the process of low contact DNA. He thinks it came from the Forensics Sciences Laboratory in the UK.
In principal you can use any DNA kit. The method is only amplifying. They use different kits. New kits have come on the market that are more sensitive. He buys them from Applied Bio-Sciences, an American company.
PCR is the replication - 22 to 25 times. It copies DNA exponentially. The problem is forensic samples sometimes have debris.
The contract DNA is the difference.
Validation in 2002 - from that time on it was used in cold and difficult cases.
With the sensitivity of the techniques, it became more important to find the DNA. In 2000 it became clear that they needed to be able to find the DNA. As in clothing, you need to know where the DNA is or you would have to take thousands of samples to find it.
For low copy numbers, you just run the PCR for more cycles.
Regarding finding DNA in insects - have you ever tested a fruit fly for DNA? No.
He agreed it has something to do with some recency of the ingestion of the body fluid and the testing. The longer, the more it breaks down. If you break the chain, you cannot amplify it.
Have you done any published research studies on environmental effects on DNA - No.
What is the most destructive environmental effect on DNA? A combination of moisture and temperature.
A hot wet environment is the worst? Yes
Also, the presence of bacteria is extremely harmful to DNA? Yes.
If you place a piece of duct tape on a person and then rip it off, you will get surface and sub-surface cells. If the tape is not violently removed, you would only get the dead cells that are up against the tape.
Duct tape placed on a human being who is then placed in a semi-swampy occasionally underwater hot environment in Florida in an area that is an erstwhile trash dump and sits there for six months as every bit of skin cells decomposes off the body extremely remote chance of getting DNA?
You only need a small amount of cells to get a DNA profile. The question is that would you lose all the cells? It is possible to get a small amount of cells and then use low copy DNA.
OBJECTION BY JB - OVERRULED
You don't expect to find any DNA on the outside of a bone?
OBJECTION BY JB - OVERRULED
It is possible, but it is way more difficult. It would be very difficult.
Regarding masking issue - contamination in a DNA profile can mask DNA. It would only mask DNA at exactly the same low side.
The only thing the 17 allele would mask would be a lower 17?
OBJECTION BY JB - OVERRULED
Taking a 15 low side, the only thing it would mask is another 15 low side, not a 14.
The only thing it could mask, is someone with the exact same profile? It would mask locations where you have detection already. It is not so likely that a full profile would have been covered. If you have a very small profile of one person, it could be masked by another profile. Enhancing with low copy DNA might enhance the situation, giving more information.
Behind the 15 is a small peak (after). He marked on the screen. Some of that could be noise, but using the low copy number you could get more information. The small peaks could go above the thresholds and more information could be obtained. The peaks could also be artifacts. It is not pure speculation as to low copy numbers methods working as the peaks are in known marker areas.
RFU's in his lab are the same. In the lower peaks, he would run them again and if it still didn't show anything, they would not mention it in their report.
He mentioned to Defense that they could investigate items. He did mention that they could investigate this piece of tape.
Were you aware items were sent for additional DNA testing by the Defense?
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
You can't go by what I say (JA being a smarty)
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
He doesn't know if the items were subjected to additioanl testing.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY JB:
Is his lab known as the Crime Farm?
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
Yes.
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
They have been sought out internationally.
Previous exposure?
OBJECTION - SUSTAINED
What kind?
OBJECTION BY JA
SIDEBAR #4 (2:39-2:41)
Prior exposure from the U.S.?
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
The first case was the Demasters (sp) case (an exoneration case). They were asked to do touch DNA. The evidence went to the Netherlands and they did the DNA profile which was not matching the person in jail. In 2008 they were able to get a match to a former suspect in the case (20 years ago). It is the first time miscarriage of justice was recognized in the state of Colorado. The victim was found outdoors and the clothing was exposed to the elements and then held for 20 years. He was then able to find DNA.
Because of that case, they got other cases from the U.S. They are currently working on other cases with U.S. law enforcement agencies. This is not the first high profile case he has been subjected to.
There are kits more sensitive to finding DNA. One example would be the mini-filer.
In addition to more runs, they can also lengthen the run time.
Trace recovery is very important. In the 90's every one was looking at DNA. You cold have a lot of DNA and still not get a profile. Cutting the sample at the right location and the type of DNA extraction will determine the results.
Another reason you can get results
OBJECTION - SUSTAINED - MOTION TO STRIKE GRANTED
He uses another machine to get a profile. He had a slide showing two machines. The machine on the right is bigger. The one on the left is the 310 and has a very small tube where the DNA is separated and then a laser detects. The larger machine can do more breakdowns at a time. Larger labs have more cases.
The choosing of the machine is important to get the profile. The machine with 1 capillary is more sensitive than the larger one with 16 capillaries. His lab does one sample at a time.
Regarding DNA degradation, he has a slide showing profiles of DNA obtained from materials subjected to the types of elements in this case. It showed pantyhose and a jeans jacket. The first item was very bloody. He said it was the victim's blood and that did not need to be tested. It is necessary to find the location where the perpetrator's blood was. The jacket was worn by a victim that was lying in the water for thee or four days.
He was willing and able to do DNA testing on this case - yes. You were willing and able to do it pro bono? The only reason you didn't do it in this case was that the prosecution objected to it?
OBJECTION - SIDEBAR #5 (2:56-3:02)
Afternoon recess until 3:20
No PhD. He is a student at the University of Denver under biologists - not experts in touch DNA.
He and his wife started their independent lab. His wife and a co-worker started in 2003 and he started in 2005. The lab is in a converted barn in order to make it into a DNA lab.
In 2008 they decided to expand their business to the United States.
He is not so sure that this exposure will help him with his business. He stated that he is very busy and is not waiting for business. His U.S. lab is not opened yet. They already have a lot of work and are trying to downscale. They are not always working for the money. They have cases they do for free. They would rather work like they want to and, if they wanted to expand, they could have expanded more than they did. However, it is very difficult to get DNA scientists.
# of other labs in U.S. that do contact DNA? Bodie (sp) and New York Laboratory and the lab in Denver. He doesn't agree they can do exactly what he does. He feels they have more experience than the other labs. They have been doing low copy DNA for a while. He has had a lot of experience with contact DNA.
He did not invent the process of low contact DNA. He thinks it came from the Forensics Sciences Laboratory in the UK.
In principal you can use any DNA kit. The method is only amplifying. They use different kits. New kits have come on the market that are more sensitive. He buys them from Applied Bio-Sciences, an American company.
PCR is the replication - 22 to 25 times. It copies DNA exponentially. The problem is forensic samples sometimes have debris.
The contract DNA is the difference.
Validation in 2002 - from that time on it was used in cold and difficult cases.
With the sensitivity of the techniques, it became more important to find the DNA. In 2000 it became clear that they needed to be able to find the DNA. As in clothing, you need to know where the DNA is or you would have to take thousands of samples to find it.
For low copy numbers, you just run the PCR for more cycles.
Regarding finding DNA in insects - have you ever tested a fruit fly for DNA? No.
He agreed it has something to do with some recency of the ingestion of the body fluid and the testing. The longer, the more it breaks down. If you break the chain, you cannot amplify it.
Have you done any published research studies on environmental effects on DNA - No.
What is the most destructive environmental effect on DNA? A combination of moisture and temperature.
A hot wet environment is the worst? Yes
Also, the presence of bacteria is extremely harmful to DNA? Yes.
If you place a piece of duct tape on a person and then rip it off, you will get surface and sub-surface cells. If the tape is not violently removed, you would only get the dead cells that are up against the tape.
Duct tape placed on a human being who is then placed in a semi-swampy occasionally underwater hot environment in Florida in an area that is an erstwhile trash dump and sits there for six months as every bit of skin cells decomposes off the body extremely remote chance of getting DNA?
You only need a small amount of cells to get a DNA profile. The question is that would you lose all the cells? It is possible to get a small amount of cells and then use low copy DNA.
OBJECTION BY JB - OVERRULED
You don't expect to find any DNA on the outside of a bone?
OBJECTION BY JB - OVERRULED
It is possible, but it is way more difficult. It would be very difficult.
Regarding masking issue - contamination in a DNA profile can mask DNA. It would only mask DNA at exactly the same low side.
The only thing the 17 allele would mask would be a lower 17?
OBJECTION BY JB - OVERRULED
Taking a 15 low side, the only thing it would mask is another 15 low side, not a 14.
The only thing it could mask, is someone with the exact same profile? It would mask locations where you have detection already. It is not so likely that a full profile would have been covered. If you have a very small profile of one person, it could be masked by another profile. Enhancing with low copy DNA might enhance the situation, giving more information.
Behind the 15 is a small peak (after). He marked on the screen. Some of that could be noise, but using the low copy number you could get more information. The small peaks could go above the thresholds and more information could be obtained. The peaks could also be artifacts. It is not pure speculation as to low copy numbers methods working as the peaks are in known marker areas.
RFU's in his lab are the same. In the lower peaks, he would run them again and if it still didn't show anything, they would not mention it in their report.
He mentioned to Defense that they could investigate items. He did mention that they could investigate this piece of tape.
Were you aware items were sent for additional DNA testing by the Defense?
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
You can't go by what I say (JA being a smarty)
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
He doesn't know if the items were subjected to additioanl testing.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY JB:
Is his lab known as the Crime Farm?
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
Yes.
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
They have been sought out internationally.
Previous exposure?
OBJECTION - SUSTAINED
What kind?
OBJECTION BY JA
SIDEBAR #4 (2:39-2:41)
Prior exposure from the U.S.?
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
The first case was the Demasters (sp) case (an exoneration case). They were asked to do touch DNA. The evidence went to the Netherlands and they did the DNA profile which was not matching the person in jail. In 2008 they were able to get a match to a former suspect in the case (20 years ago). It is the first time miscarriage of justice was recognized in the state of Colorado. The victim was found outdoors and the clothing was exposed to the elements and then held for 20 years. He was then able to find DNA.
Because of that case, they got other cases from the U.S. They are currently working on other cases with U.S. law enforcement agencies. This is not the first high profile case he has been subjected to.
There are kits more sensitive to finding DNA. One example would be the mini-filer.
In addition to more runs, they can also lengthen the run time.
Trace recovery is very important. In the 90's every one was looking at DNA. You cold have a lot of DNA and still not get a profile. Cutting the sample at the right location and the type of DNA extraction will determine the results.
Another reason you can get results
OBJECTION - SUSTAINED - MOTION TO STRIKE GRANTED
He uses another machine to get a profile. He had a slide showing two machines. The machine on the right is bigger. The one on the left is the 310 and has a very small tube where the DNA is separated and then a laser detects. The larger machine can do more breakdowns at a time. Larger labs have more cases.
The choosing of the machine is important to get the profile. The machine with 1 capillary is more sensitive than the larger one with 16 capillaries. His lab does one sample at a time.
Regarding DNA degradation, he has a slide showing profiles of DNA obtained from materials subjected to the types of elements in this case. It showed pantyhose and a jeans jacket. The first item was very bloody. He said it was the victim's blood and that did not need to be tested. It is necessary to find the location where the perpetrator's blood was. The jacket was worn by a victim that was lying in the water for thee or four days.
He was willing and able to do DNA testing on this case - yes. You were willing and able to do it pro bono? The only reason you didn't do it in this case was that the prosecution objected to it?
OBJECTION - SIDEBAR #5 (2:56-3:02)
Afternoon recess until 3:20
MaraSleuth
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Glad i didn't miss too much while out on a field trip with my 5 year old. Anyone know - is this touch DNA really something that is so super specialized that the FBI does not have access to it?
PGWodehouse
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I want to read a transcript of this sidebar!
Jetaime
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coloradoteacher
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Bill Schaeffer just said that the Rodriquez depo showed that he believed the body had been there since june/july, so JB probably does not want him to testify now!!!
greycoupon
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Oookay. That tweet didn't translate well. So Casey would be executed in the 23rd century based on the current number of inmates on death row and how long each is taking. Meaning she will die in jail.
I thought Georgia was pretty bad. After reading a lot of posts here I was reminded I actually knew someone who was murdered a very long time ago. Looked up the case and her killer was executed in January. I believe he was convicted in 1989-90. I guess that makes us pretty quick.
I thought Georgia was pretty bad. After reading a lot of posts here I was reminded I actually knew someone who was murdered a very long time ago. Looked up the case and her killer was executed in January. I believe he was convicted in 1989-90. I guess that makes us pretty quick.
I believe that is an inside joke. Say panties in front of any man and see if they grin, turn red, make a joke back, or anything else. (Sorry to the men here, but ya' know it's true.)
20 year old panties with DNA on them, yuck. My personal non-crime related panties will now end in a lysol, water filled bucket daily! :crazy:
:floorlaugh:
Jolynna
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The state didn't depose him because they didn't get a report about opinions he would be sharing during his testimony.
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