2011.06.23 TRIAL Day Twenty-six (Morning Session)
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MO MO - Grandview/Kansas City, WhtFem UP95538 & UP95540, UnkAge, maybe same case, Jan'22
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I am quoting myself.. I DID say my opinion was subject to change...I'd never want to go into any court case against JA.
FaerieB
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JimLichtenstein Jim Lichtenstein
I remember shampoo. “@Melissa_Ryan_: I think Karen looks more like a Breck Girl, but didn't want to offend u with a vague shampoo reference.
The great thing about boring, useless testimony is that the reporters start going a little nutso during it. LOL!
I remember shampoo. “@Melissa_Ryan_: I think Karen looks more like a Breck Girl, but didn't want to offend u with a vague shampoo reference.
The great thing about boring, useless testimony is that the reporters start going a little nutso during it. LOL!
logicalgirl
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LOL Judge Eaton says we are watching paint dry - this from the most cautious legal trial observer out there!
Where's RH to amuse us when we need him?
Where's RH to amuse us when we need him?
Mountain_Kat
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I told you guys the velveeta was going to play a huge part in this case! Velveeta is the devil! :floorlaugh:
MissJames
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I'm not a lawyer or a chemist,but I think there is more leeway in civil suits and that is DS's field. I don't believe she's done criminal trials before.
I was just noticing that. She is probably steaming mad that her parents have the nerve to think she is guilty.
I do feel bad for GA and CA. This has truly got to be He** on earth for them
summerthyme
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JA drag out the empty food containters again. heehee
mitzi
Watch us lie to cover for 'Princess'
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I note that his accent is more prevalent as he becomes more exasperated.
sleutherontheside
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Sidebar trivia question.....
What % of this testimony do you think CM has actually heard?
What % of this testimony do you think CM has actually heard?
YellowSubmarine
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The least you could do is share....
Mountain_Kat
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Lunch! Praise the Lord!
mombomb
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10:40
Jury coming back
DIRECT EXAMINATION OF DR. BARRY LOGAN BY DS
He is a forensic toxicologist and analytical chemist.
BS in chemistry and PhD. in forensic toxicology - both from University of Glasgow in Scotland. Post-doctoral experience at the University of Tennessee. He is certified by the American Board of Forensic Toxicologists.
He has experience with GCMS. He has used this equipment on a daily basis throughout this career. He is familiar and has used cryo-trapping.
He is a reviewer for a number of journals.
He is currently employed by MNS labs in Pennsylvania as the National Director of Forensic Services - one of the largest forensic labs in the U.S. His duties are to oversee the toxicologists, review data, meet with clients and participates in formulating new testing, how they are to be validated and he consults on medical-legal cases.
He is involved in a non-profit and does consulting work. The money he receives from consulting work goes to the company.
MNS Lab has about a dozen departments based on analytical methods.
He has published 80 peer reviewed articles.
An analytical chemist applies knowledge of chemical compound properties to determine how to separate them to make sure they are properly identified and then to quantify it.
He is a member of AAFS, SFT, IAFT, ICADTS, National Safety Council...... He has served....
OBJECTION - relevance - OVERRULED
Served as secretary and chair of toxicology, vice-president and now secretary of the AAFS.
Scientific working groups determine consensus and best methods of testing, publish guidelines. This has now been taken over by the FBI. There are over 20 groups. There is a group for decomp odor analysis?
OBJECTION - relevance - SIDEBAR #3 (10:56-10:58)
OBJECTION SUSTAINED
Background with accrediting forensic lab? Certification deals with individuals. Accreditation deals with labs.
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
He has been involved in 2 boards that oversee labs. He has been involved in auditing labs related to work-place drug testing.
Witness offered as expert in analytical chemistry, toxicology, forensic sciences and lab accreditation.
JA - requests voir dire
VOIR DIRE BY JA
Analytical chemistry other than that related to toxicology? Hard to separate.
It is part of his daily activities. Outside of toxicological exams, what do you do in analytical chemistry? He is also responsible for the portion of the lab that does analytical chemistry that is not biological.
Not all of his work deals with drugs. Also chemicals and poisons. He does not consider himself an expert in every aspect of analytical chemistry.
His last experience with cryo-trapping was as a grad student over 20 years ago.
He is not an expert in all areas of forensic science.
JA - I object to any certification other than forensic toxicology.
DS - As vice-president of AAFS, he served on the Board of Directors...
HHJBP - Witness is accepted only in the area of forensic toxicology.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DS CONTINUED:
He was given analytical records from FBI regarding analysis of evidence from the trunk, reports from Oakridge, misc other documents related to the investigation including the autopsy.
What articles have you read?
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
He was not provided any articles in this case, but he had some in his possession already. He has reviewed the 2008 article by Dr. Vass regarding decomp odors.
Regarding forensic labs, his lab is a forensic lab accreddited by the American Society of Crime Lab Directors.
SIDEBAR #4 requested by JA (11:12-11:19)
What are requirements...
OBJECTION - relevance - SUSTAINED
A forensic lab analyzes evidence for a Court of Law, they do research. Research labs are typically academic to discover new things where the application is not clear.
Research labs in this case, proficiency testing?
OBJECTION - SUSTAINED
Is Oakridge a forensic lab? He has no evidence that it has been certified.
Quality control?
OBJECTION - SUSTAINED
What is a validation test in a lab? When new test is developed and before it is applied to evidence the test has to be fully characterized and whether it has limitations....
OBJECTION - relevance - OVERRULED
It has to be established as to what materials the test is applied to.
Was validation testing done in this case?
OBJECTION - basis of knowledge - SUSTAINED
He was provided with bench notes from Oakridge by Dr. Wise and Dr. Vass relative to the testing of the evidence in this case as well as additional items related to the testing and the method. He reviewed the final forensic report sent to OCSO dated 4/28/09 summarizing the Oakridge results. He also reviewed Dr. Vass and Dr. Wise's depos.
The bench notes were a commentary on things that happened during the analysis, when the test didn't work or an unexpected result.
As a result of his review, bench notes, articles and other items, he reached conclusions regarding the procedures and methodologies...
OBJECTION - beyond expertise - SUSTAINED
Bench notes show validation?
OBJECTION - SIDEBAR #5 requested by JA at 11:28-11:30
Established published protocols for testing done at Oakridge? No formal protocols. The test itself ...
OBJECTION - outside expertise - SUSTAINED
What happens if a test is conducted without established protocols? With no written procedure there is no way to know the test is done the same way every time, the equipment is set the same, if results are reproducible, false positives? It is critical to have a written procedure.
OBJECTION - move to strike as beyond expertise - SUSTAINED
SIDEBAR #6 requested by HHJBP (11:32-11:36)
Was there any documentation of protection against contamination? There is no evidence of what protection might have been taken. What happens, in general...
OBJECTION - relevance - SUSTAINED
Quality assurance programs referenced?
OBJECTION - absence of info - OVERRULED
He saw no evidence of any quality assurance that was relevant to the analysis.
Quality assurance is the process by which you document the performance of the test, challenge it with a known composition, testing known unknowns. It also consists of proficiency testing.
OBJECTION - beyond scope - SUSTAINED
Was there documentation...
OBJECTION - compound - SUSTAINED
Proper controls were not discussed. A control is a sample that contains known amounts.
OBJECTION - beyond expertise - SUSTAINED
Controls are used in toxicology.
OBJECTION - relevance - SUSTAINED
Opinion on bench notes as they discuss how testing was performed on control samples?
OBJECTION - outside expertise and attacking other expert - SUSTAINED
What is your understanding of the blank samples?
OBJECTION - outside expertise - SUSTAINED
A blank sample is a sample known not to contain the chemicals you are trying to test for to insure no contamination.
If a blank sample is run and a computer is not changed?
OBJECTION - relevance and outside expertise - OVERRULED
OBJECTION - also as to hypothetical - DS requests SIDEBAR #7 (11:43-11:45)
What is the effect of running a blank sample and not changing the machine? If the machine is not set up appropriately you won't get a reliable result.
Effect of not seeing a positive control when there should be? If you are performing a test and the compound isn't present, there is a problem either with the way the test is performed...
OBJECTION - not responsive and move to strike - SUSTAINED MOTION GRANTED
If you are running a blank sample that is known not to contain a chemical and you get a result that it is present it is either contamination or the way the test is performed.
Purpose of blank sample is to ensure no false positives.
Significance of a closed valve destroying a run? He can't answer.
There were issues with valves being closed in the bench notes. Some times the valves weren't set in the appropriate condition causing the test to fail or giving a wrong result.
Triple-sorbent trap freezing?
OBJECTION - beyond expertise - SUSTAINED
If technique is changed in the middle...
OBJECTION - beyond expertise and relevance - SUSTAINED
Techniques changed in middle? Condition of analysis was changed over several weeks in order to correct problems with the instrument. Effect of this?
OBJECTION - beyond expertise - SUSTAINED
When you run a standard, is that done on the same day as you run the sample to ensure that you are testing the evidence under the same conditions as the known sample. This did not occur in this case? He did not count how many times this occurred.
Oleic acid is a fatty acid. What is this found in?
OBJECTION - outside expertise - OVERRULED
Fatty acids are prevalent in all kinds of biological materials and he has tested it thousands of times. Also palmitic and steric and myristic acid.
What contains myristic acid?
OBJECTION - beyond expertise - OVERRULED
These appear in many biologic materials - in dairy and meat products.
Fatty acids in the paper towel could be caused by a number of items including cheese.
Are you familiar with the ratio of fatty acids in pizza?
OBJECTION - beyond expertise - SUSTAINED
He has reviewed materials on this subject.
OBJECTION BY JA - multiple, may I approach - SIDEBAR #8 (11:56-11:58)
Recess for lunch until 1:30 (11:58)
Jury coming back
DIRECT EXAMINATION OF DR. BARRY LOGAN BY DS
He is a forensic toxicologist and analytical chemist.
BS in chemistry and PhD. in forensic toxicology - both from University of Glasgow in Scotland. Post-doctoral experience at the University of Tennessee. He is certified by the American Board of Forensic Toxicologists.
He has experience with GCMS. He has used this equipment on a daily basis throughout this career. He is familiar and has used cryo-trapping.
He is a reviewer for a number of journals.
He is currently employed by MNS labs in Pennsylvania as the National Director of Forensic Services - one of the largest forensic labs in the U.S. His duties are to oversee the toxicologists, review data, meet with clients and participates in formulating new testing, how they are to be validated and he consults on medical-legal cases.
He is involved in a non-profit and does consulting work. The money he receives from consulting work goes to the company.
MNS Lab has about a dozen departments based on analytical methods.
He has published 80 peer reviewed articles.
An analytical chemist applies knowledge of chemical compound properties to determine how to separate them to make sure they are properly identified and then to quantify it.
He is a member of AAFS, SFT, IAFT, ICADTS, National Safety Council...... He has served....
OBJECTION - relevance - OVERRULED
Served as secretary and chair of toxicology, vice-president and now secretary of the AAFS.
Scientific working groups determine consensus and best methods of testing, publish guidelines. This has now been taken over by the FBI. There are over 20 groups. There is a group for decomp odor analysis?
OBJECTION - relevance - SIDEBAR #3 (10:56-10:58)
OBJECTION SUSTAINED
Background with accrediting forensic lab? Certification deals with individuals. Accreditation deals with labs.
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
He has been involved in 2 boards that oversee labs. He has been involved in auditing labs related to work-place drug testing.
Witness offered as expert in analytical chemistry, toxicology, forensic sciences and lab accreditation.
JA - requests voir dire
VOIR DIRE BY JA
Analytical chemistry other than that related to toxicology? Hard to separate.
It is part of his daily activities. Outside of toxicological exams, what do you do in analytical chemistry? He is also responsible for the portion of the lab that does analytical chemistry that is not biological.
Not all of his work deals with drugs. Also chemicals and poisons. He does not consider himself an expert in every aspect of analytical chemistry.
His last experience with cryo-trapping was as a grad student over 20 years ago.
He is not an expert in all areas of forensic science.
JA - I object to any certification other than forensic toxicology.
DS - As vice-president of AAFS, he served on the Board of Directors...
HHJBP - Witness is accepted only in the area of forensic toxicology.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DS CONTINUED:
He was given analytical records from FBI regarding analysis of evidence from the trunk, reports from Oakridge, misc other documents related to the investigation including the autopsy.
What articles have you read?
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
He was not provided any articles in this case, but he had some in his possession already. He has reviewed the 2008 article by Dr. Vass regarding decomp odors.
Regarding forensic labs, his lab is a forensic lab accreddited by the American Society of Crime Lab Directors.
SIDEBAR #4 requested by JA (11:12-11:19)
What are requirements...
OBJECTION - relevance - SUSTAINED
A forensic lab analyzes evidence for a Court of Law, they do research. Research labs are typically academic to discover new things where the application is not clear.
Research labs in this case, proficiency testing?
OBJECTION - SUSTAINED
Is Oakridge a forensic lab? He has no evidence that it has been certified.
Quality control?
OBJECTION - SUSTAINED
What is a validation test in a lab? When new test is developed and before it is applied to evidence the test has to be fully characterized and whether it has limitations....
OBJECTION - relevance - OVERRULED
It has to be established as to what materials the test is applied to.
Was validation testing done in this case?
OBJECTION - basis of knowledge - SUSTAINED
He was provided with bench notes from Oakridge by Dr. Wise and Dr. Vass relative to the testing of the evidence in this case as well as additional items related to the testing and the method. He reviewed the final forensic report sent to OCSO dated 4/28/09 summarizing the Oakridge results. He also reviewed Dr. Vass and Dr. Wise's depos.
The bench notes were a commentary on things that happened during the analysis, when the test didn't work or an unexpected result.
As a result of his review, bench notes, articles and other items, he reached conclusions regarding the procedures and methodologies...
OBJECTION - beyond expertise - SUSTAINED
Bench notes show validation?
OBJECTION - SIDEBAR #5 requested by JA at 11:28-11:30
Established published protocols for testing done at Oakridge? No formal protocols. The test itself ...
OBJECTION - outside expertise - SUSTAINED
What happens if a test is conducted without established protocols? With no written procedure there is no way to know the test is done the same way every time, the equipment is set the same, if results are reproducible, false positives? It is critical to have a written procedure.
OBJECTION - move to strike as beyond expertise - SUSTAINED
SIDEBAR #6 requested by HHJBP (11:32-11:36)
Was there any documentation of protection against contamination? There is no evidence of what protection might have been taken. What happens, in general...
OBJECTION - relevance - SUSTAINED
Quality assurance programs referenced?
OBJECTION - absence of info - OVERRULED
He saw no evidence of any quality assurance that was relevant to the analysis.
Quality assurance is the process by which you document the performance of the test, challenge it with a known composition, testing known unknowns. It also consists of proficiency testing.
OBJECTION - beyond scope - SUSTAINED
Was there documentation...
OBJECTION - compound - SUSTAINED
Proper controls were not discussed. A control is a sample that contains known amounts.
OBJECTION - beyond expertise - SUSTAINED
Controls are used in toxicology.
OBJECTION - relevance - SUSTAINED
Opinion on bench notes as they discuss how testing was performed on control samples?
OBJECTION - outside expertise and attacking other expert - SUSTAINED
What is your understanding of the blank samples?
OBJECTION - outside expertise - SUSTAINED
A blank sample is a sample known not to contain the chemicals you are trying to test for to insure no contamination.
If a blank sample is run and a computer is not changed?
OBJECTION - relevance and outside expertise - OVERRULED
OBJECTION - also as to hypothetical - DS requests SIDEBAR #7 (11:43-11:45)
What is the effect of running a blank sample and not changing the machine? If the machine is not set up appropriately you won't get a reliable result.
Effect of not seeing a positive control when there should be? If you are performing a test and the compound isn't present, there is a problem either with the way the test is performed...
OBJECTION - not responsive and move to strike - SUSTAINED MOTION GRANTED
If you are running a blank sample that is known not to contain a chemical and you get a result that it is present it is either contamination or the way the test is performed.
Purpose of blank sample is to ensure no false positives.
Significance of a closed valve destroying a run? He can't answer.
There were issues with valves being closed in the bench notes. Some times the valves weren't set in the appropriate condition causing the test to fail or giving a wrong result.
Triple-sorbent trap freezing?
OBJECTION - beyond expertise - SUSTAINED
If technique is changed in the middle...
OBJECTION - beyond expertise and relevance - SUSTAINED
Techniques changed in middle? Condition of analysis was changed over several weeks in order to correct problems with the instrument. Effect of this?
OBJECTION - beyond expertise - SUSTAINED
When you run a standard, is that done on the same day as you run the sample to ensure that you are testing the evidence under the same conditions as the known sample. This did not occur in this case? He did not count how many times this occurred.
Oleic acid is a fatty acid. What is this found in?
OBJECTION - outside expertise - OVERRULED
Fatty acids are prevalent in all kinds of biological materials and he has tested it thousands of times. Also palmitic and steric and myristic acid.
What contains myristic acid?
OBJECTION - beyond expertise - OVERRULED
These appear in many biologic materials - in dairy and meat products.
Fatty acids in the paper towel could be caused by a number of items including cheese.
Are you familiar with the ratio of fatty acids in pizza?
OBJECTION - beyond expertise - SUSTAINED
He has reviewed materials on this subject.
OBJECTION BY JA - multiple, may I approach - SIDEBAR #8 (11:56-11:58)
Recess for lunch until 1:30 (11:58)
bonjoviblonde
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JB is gonna have a whopper of a headache with all of the eye rolling I'm sure he's doing.
sorrell skye
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IIRC, the "I Can't Believe it's Not Butter" defense was squashed during the SA's CIC. I guess it's being resurrected.
TotallyObsessed
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Do you think at sidebar HHJP says something like:
FGS....move this thing along. You have totally lost the jurors and if you don't want your client strapped to a gurney this afternoon Ms. Sims...hurry up and sit down.
FGS....move this thing along. You have totally lost the jurors and if you don't want your client strapped to a gurney this afternoon Ms. Sims...hurry up and sit down.
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