2011.06.25 Sidebar Thread (Trial Day Twenty-eight)

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Oh me too The Big Wigs at Corp will not be happy with her stating under oath it was and is a common practice to allow such behavior..tampering with and falsifying documents and I believe TIME CARDS ARE LEGAL DOCUMENTS.

http://www.ehow.com/about_5632339_time-card-laws.html
Warning


  • Because time cards are official business records, falsification of time card records are violations of the law. Employers should therefore ensure that employees are aware that any deliberate misstatements on time card records, or filling in time cards for someone else, are serious offenses that may result in severe consequences, including discharge.

So true. When I was on salary (meaning I didn't get paid for OT) didn't mean that gave me carte blance to leave early if I worked extra (which I did most weeks). My hours were 8 a day, if I chose too, or my boss asked me, I would work late. But I didn't sneak off early the next day for doing so - no one did. And guess what, I put those hours on my time card (just didn't get paid for them). If you look at managers, or top level executives, many work long long hours, but are on a fixed salary.

My goodness my boss would flip out if I left at 1:00 (in time to be on my home computer searching for chloroform, alcohol, and bleach) by 2:00 -- instead of being where I should be. AT WORK.

I don't believe her story for a minute, and her company must be hopping mad right now.

Give me those records, I wanna see em :)

MOO

Mel
 
If they know the truth, as in Casey Confessed...they can't tell. But they also could not put people on the stand that they know are committing perjury.

There is a second way around it......they could pass her off to another lawyer and instruct her to keep her mouth shut.

A defense lawyer will NEVER ask the question of their client, "did you do it?"

I know less about the law than my dog, but really? I think I have seen lawyers on TV saying they ask their clients point blank if they are guilty. Maybe not DP cases though. Its true attorneys CAN'T report it if their clients admit they DID kill someone? That is carpy. I thought even doctors and clergy were obligated to report such things. Morally then, I could never have been a lawyer, clergy or a doctor.
 
There's always the question of knowing right from wrong.

Anyone who commits a crime such as hurting a child, murder, etc. obviously has something wrong with them; i.e, they're 'crazy' - however you label it. It's just not 'normal'. By your definition we'd have to turn all the jails and prison into institutions. The only people left in prison would be thiefs, robbers and the like?

You can still be my friend, though. ;)

Yeah. I agree! Casey is as normal as a (evil) killer can be.
 
This is quite an issue in itself, though, isn't it ?

Guess I won't make any friends here by suggesting sociopathy/psychopathy is as genuine a mental disorder as any other and as such, must relieve an accused of responsibility for his/her actions (with the only appropriate 'punishment' being institutionalization)

Because sociopaths know the difference between right and wrong, it (and other personality disorders) does not excuse a criminal of his/her behavior. Such disorders have never been treated successfully, thus the person will never be rehabilitated. moo
 
I'm sad to say I think this is the reaction she wanted to get out of the jury. I have learned the hard way that Cindy Anthony is far more devious and manipulative than I used to give her credit for. I believe she is willing to say just about anything so her precious Casey doesn't die. Not even killing her grandchild was enough to make Cindy draw a line in the sand with Casey. Now do I think she actually searched for Chloroform or actually fudged her time cards? Probably not. But is she more than willing to get on the stand and SAY she did, oh hell yes. So no, in real life, she didn't do these nefarious things. But being willing to get up on the stand and say she did is nefarious in it itself, and is what really upset a lot of us. Don't be fooled by this woman. The only thing she cares about is saving someone that doesn't deserve to be saved. I have no doubt she would be Casey's next target. And Cindy wouldn't believe it until the moment right before Casey killed her either.

Agreed! And eventhough CA buys into what she is saying, I am still confident the jury sees right through it.

One thing about the Anthonys, boy do they ramble.
 
Sorry, their names escape me, but the DT did have two psychiatrists they wanted during this phase of the trial - the original Dr. that examined KC at the very beginning under JS orders and a second one. The SA was taking the deposition of the first Dr. and it was called off in the middle when both the SA and the DT called HHJP about an issue that arose - that Dr. was then withdrawn. The second Dr. was withdrawn shortly thereafter following a closed door session with HHJP, SA, DT and ICA during a hearing.

However, the DT still has two psychiatrists - the second one above and another one - listed on their mitigation witness list, so they may come into play at that time.

ETA - If the DT was going to put on these experts, the SA wanted to have their own expert examine KC. This IMO sent the DT into a bit of a panic and they then withdrew their experts - again, JMO.

I think a mental health expert would not be of much significance in this case. As you have said they couldn't really have a DT expert examine her and not allow the state to do the same. Without a legitimate diagnostic assessment their opinion would be useless IMO. Even if a through eval was done an expert would be torn apart by JA.

Expert: This type of behavior is seen in abuse victims.
JA: Is it seen in all or even most abuse victims?
Expert: No it is not.
JA: Has this behavior ever been seen in a person who was never abused?
Expert: Yes it has.

The truth is that the vast majority of SA survivors would not be able to go on with their life as if nothing happened if they knew their child had just died. However, most sociopaths would.

Maybe the DT thinks a grief expert will provide some reasonable doubt but I seriously doubt that. JA is just too good and would tear this type of expert completely apart. Especially if they have no first-hand knowledge of ICA.
 
My question is - why didn't JA ask Lee what it was he discussed with him?:waitasec:

He just went off into his snit about LA even having a conversation with Baez, the man who publicly stated while a couple of people watching that he wanted to follow in his father's footsteps and was already abusing his sister.

I just find the suggestion that LA would sit down and agree with this to save his sister's life - when it would completely ruin any life that LA hoped to have now or in the future. You see him explaining to every employer, to his wife and future children, friends, etc., that it was all to save his sister? Think of the implications of that.....
BBM
That would have been just about the stupidest thing for JA to do, without knowing the answer himself! Imagine what type of door he could have cracked open with that question!
example- "LA: Well...I found out my dad did sexually abuse my sister and admitted it in the discussion"
There are so many ways that could have gone wrong for the SA that JA was completely smart the way he handled it. He made it clear LA was 'working' with Defense and not the State and had a clearer memory with Defense, therefore his testimony is questionable.
 
Hey Gal..

Always a possibility I suppose, but I have to agree with you, give it up!

I can't imagine though they could change much after Baez shooting his mouth off in his insane, outrageous, ridiculous opening, I am quite sure the jurors remember every word he said and are going to hold him to it.

I seriously do not understand this 'change' of defense theory. Are they going to say they were 'mistaken' when they gave their scenario in the Opening Statements? "OOOPS MY BAD, Let me do it over.."
 
excellent analysis!
I agree
It matches with what I saw LDBurdick and Mr. George do yesterday at the end of the day. I've never seen LDB soooooo angry! She stomped over to the defense table and leaned into Mason's face and said something, while Baez, the Inmate, Sims, and Fryer looked stunned, and Mr. George followed behind, then LDB stomped back to the Defense table. This was at the same time that Ashton walked over to the defense table and slapped down the yellow paper in front of Baez [probably with the supervisor's name of Dr. Wm Rodriguez with the DoD].

Looks like Mason was trying to be the peacemaker today, to put out whatever fire got ignited yesterday. We know that the Defense filed a Motion to Dismiss claiming prosecutorial misconduct.
Maybe Mason offered to withdraw that nonsense if the prosecutors will go easier on Baez with the motions for sanctions?

I've been mulling this over.

Since this episode happened at the end of the day, the day Lee testified for the DT, and since the brouhaha yesterday annoyed FG so much, I'm wondering if the "legal matter" has anything to do with the DT "witness tampering" with Lee? FG was the one who questioned Lee originally during the State's CIC, and would have been the one, I assume, to contact Lee prior to attempt to go over his testimony. Perhaps Friday, LDB stomped over to CM and said "2 words. Witness tampering" and stomped back? Maybe it was to give him a heads up that she expected him to get his "house" in order? Pointless to say anything to JB, KWIM? Maybe CM put his foot down good and hard yesterday after getting some info on Friday evening? :waitasec:

Just speculation. I don't know. That may be way off, as I cannot imagine that the entire Prosecution team wouldn't have been in chambers the entire time, and I don't know why court would have needed to be recessed, but maybe CM wanted to read his team the riot act, and, being an officer of the court, report it to HHJP first before the State did? :waitasec:
 
Yes that snapshot when it happened live SCARED the crap outta me! Anyone have the clip? I even rewound my dvr to watch it a few times. Anyone know what happened right then?

I hope that wasn't the last expression on Casey's face that poor little Caylee saw....I so hope she simply went to sleep with the chloroform, was taped and never woke up.

I agree I rewound my DVR a few times too. I think she was telling CM to get Baez's attention and bring him back there. It almost seemed like she didn't want him to go any further with what was going on or maybe she wanted him to go deeper with what was going on I'm not sure. I'm curious also what was going on at the time. Was this around the time of the picture with the "caylee at the door?"
 
I have no idea of CA is lying, I tend to think she believes that her searches for choraphil could have triggered the chloroform fiasco. Its not like CA got up there and said "yes I searched for chloroform 84 times". And I do think its possible her memory is better in hindsight. If you have ever had a traumatic event, you know that as time passes you can remember things you didnt focus on before. I am a nurse, work for a big company and we actually do not ever see our "timecards", as a salaried employee, its not as crucial as other employees who actually punch in. Our office assistant sends in our "time card" but because we cannot do overtime, we simply tell her the hours we have put in and we can "take some time back" when we are not busy, etc. So I dont think the time card thing is as nefarious as it sounds..I do concede I could be entirely wrong about CA and she is lying, Im just not entirely convinced her testimony was as lying and egregious as some think. Time will tell....I hope..
jmo

It could have happened that way in one possible scenario, so I get what you're saying. But the evidence pretty much shows that it's just not so. :( I mean I have always understood when someone on the stand or being questioned by police has changed a statement when something else triggered a memory they didn't have before, or when they sat and thought about it when they weren't 'under the gun' and had a memory or realization that allowed them more clarity. I'm certainly like that myself. My long term memory is actually better than my short term, for some strange reason. So I get how that could happen.

However all of the associated "hard" evidence, ie computer hard drive memory, cell records, etc, disprove a lot of the things Cindy said on the stand that helped the defense. Her cell records showed she didn't call George on the 16th when she claims she came home to find the ladder up.

And her excuse for fudging the time cards was that they sometimes worked overtime and had to claim to have only worked 8 hours, then made up for it later by going home early ... okay, I buy that, I work in a research lab sometimes 80 hours a week while claiming 40, so if I want to take off Wednesday I will and might still claim 8 hours to make up for the extra I worked last week, sure... however her time card for the first day the chloroform searches happened was a day her timecard said she worked MORE than 8 hours - the opposite of her reason for coming home early and the very thing she claimed she couldn't do (work overtime). The week the searches happened she DID work overtime - the opposite of her stated reason for coming home early (in other words, instead of only working 30 hours that week while claiming 40, to make up for overtime worked but unclaimed - she DID claim overtime that week, including that very day she said she came home early.)

I cried along with Cindy when she was a sobbing mess during the 911 calls. My mother's heart went out to her, reliving that. I was more shocked than anyone at her new claims on the stand. She had a smile on her face as she asked LDB to repeat her questions multiple times. She was being locked into testimony that directly conflicted with hard evidence, and she knew it, yet she smiled as she did it. That's eerie. That (IMO) is mental illness akin to ICA's. Lie to get yourself through this minute without any regard for the piper who must be paid 5 minutes from now for your lies. It's beyond my comprehension.
 
Who would want him?

I don't mean to be nasty - it's an honest question.

"Hi, I'm George, skilled in almost nothing, but willing to work if I can have every day off to watch my daughter's trial."

Just doesn't have that certain ~panache~ employers are looking for, KWIM?


ETA: Oops, I read "he" instead of "she." But almost the same goes for cindy. Except that "no skills" thing. Sorta.

:floorlaugh:

That was good. However, it's not MY fault those 2 can't get a job. Why are they sucking on my tax dollars, or the Floridians tax dollars? Hey George, get a job at night. Cindy? Lee?

People say "oh, they need to attend the trial, oh, they're the grieving grandparents". GMAB. They can do what the rest of us do - watch the evening recaps (unless they have to testify of course).

Will they continue to be on disability once the trial is over? This can't go on forever can it?

The whole lot of them make me so darn mad. Between the cost of the trial, and paying for the entire family on taxpayer dollars seems quite wrong.

MOO - please and thanks.

Mel
 
I know less about the law than my dog, but really? I think I have seen lawyers on TV saying they ask their clients point blank if they are guilty. Maybe not DP cases though. Its true attorneys CAN'T report it if their clients admit they DID kill someone? That is carpy. I thought even doctors and clergy were obligated to report such things. Morally then, I could never have been a lawyer, clergy or a doctor.

If Casey said, the first thing I am gonna do when I get out is kill my parents with a pick ax. If she were aquitted....her lawyer would have to report that.

Clergy doesn't have to either. Only if they have knowledge of a future crime....see above
 
IF Cindy Anthony did those searches on chloroform (and I don't believe that she did), she did so because she suspected ICA was using chloroform on Caylee. So either way, still perjury, imo.
 
Have you changed your opinion? Have you turned in a detailed report?

It's a flexible kind of a document and I'm an expert even if I do write in pencil and show lots of cross-outs and additions, but alas I am not a chemist...

It's called a boomerang document...:seeya: filed under "B"...
 
This is quite an issue in itself, though, isn't it ?

Guess I won't make any friends here by suggesting sociopathy/psychopathy is as genuine a mental disorder as any other and as such, must relieve an accused of responsibility for his/her actions (with the only appropriate 'punishment' being institutionalization)

I agree that personality disorders are genuine psychiatric issues.

But in order to use any psychiatric disorder as a defense the defendent must meet the following outline in the FL statutes.

(b) Because of this condition, the defendant:

1. Did not know what he or she was doing or its consequences; or

2. Although the defendant knew what he or she was doing and its consequences, the defendant did not know that what he or she was doing was wrong.

Mental infirmity, disease, or defect does not constitute a defense of insanity except as provided in this subsection.

(2) BURDEN OF PROOF.--The defendant has the burden of proving the defense of insanity by clear and convincing evidence.

http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/775.027.html

(not directed at you laserdisc) sometimes it's difficult to remember when we talk about mental health/mental illness issues that the medical definition doesn't automatically transfer to the legal definition.

Insanity is a legal definition not a medical one. JMHO
 
I agree I rewound my DVR a few times too. I think she was telling CM to get Baez's attention and bring him back there. It almost seemed like she didn't want him to go any further with what was going on or maybe she wanted him to go deeper with what was going on I'm not sure. I'm curious also what was going on at the time. Was this around the time of the picture with the "caylee at the door?"


I don't remember...but would love to know too and see it again in context

I actually saw more of it from a slightly different camera angle on TV. I just wish I knew what the heck that was over and what that particular sidebar was called for....before or after what exactly
 
Wonder if Casey has been practicing again....Casey O Mason, Casey Mason,

Casey O Mason..it has a nice ring to it. Do you think he would take her to any Hot Body contests though? She could where her sweater wrap.
 
:floorlaugh:

That was good. However, it's not MY fault those 2 can't get a job. Why are they sucking on my tax dollars, or the Floridians tax dollars? Hey George, get a job at night. Cindy? Lee?

People say "oh, they need to attend the trial, oh, they're the grieving grandparents". GMAB. They can do what the rest of us do - watch the evening recaps (unless they have to testify of course).

Will they continue to be on disability once the trial is over? This can't go on forever can it?

The whole lot of them make me so darn mad. Between the cost of the trial, and paying for the entire family on taxpayer dollars seems quite wrong.

MOO - please and thanks.

Mel

Neither George nor Cindy will be in need of a job once the 'book deal' goes through.

How sick is that? I sure wish the State of Florida could recoup some of the costs after all is said and done... wishful thinking of course.

This entire family makes me ill.:loser:
 
I also remember her saying she would at some point like to return to work for the company. Yeah, I don't see that happening.

I'd say the chances of that are only slightly better than the chances of KC going back to work for Universal.
 
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